Poland remembers World War start

[Babur]

I was in Domodaedovo airport yesterday and I read about the historical debate about this in the Moscow times as I was coming back from my 10 day trip to Russia.Medvedev said in the Moscow times that all these different historical views turns Childrens' brains to "kasha" (buck-wheat porridge) .Today however Poland commemorates the 70th anniversary of the outbreak of WW2:

Poland remembers World War start


A day of commemorations is taking place in Poland to mark the 70th anniversary of the outbreak of World War II.


The first ceremony took place at dawn on Westerplatte peninsula near Gdansk, where a German battleship fired the first shots on a Polish fort in 1939.
Poland's president and prime minister led a sombre ceremony at the fort.
President Lech Kaczynski added to a row with Russia over responsibility for the war, saying his country had received a "stab in the back".
Foreign leaders from 20 countries including Germany and Russia are expected in Gdansk during the day as ceremonies continue.
In a news conference with his Polish counterpart, Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin acknowledged there were "problems" in the two countries' history which needed to be analysed.
Relations between Poland and Russia are currently thorny, partly because of differing historical interpretations of events at the start of the war.


ANALYSIS

Jonny Dymond BBC News, Gdansk

There was, of course, talk of heroism in the speeches of the Mayor of Gdansk, President Lech Kaczynski and Prime Minister Donald Tusk. But for Poland, perhaps more than any other nation on earth, World War II was nothing but a catastrophe.
By the war's end, 5m-6m Poles had been killed - a greater proportion of its population than any other country.

Mr Putin added that the pair should "rise above the problems of the past... and solve the problems of the future".
He went on to talk about trade and energy co-operation between the two.
Earlier, Mr Kaczynski and his prime minister Donald Tusk joined war veterans beside a monument to the heroes of Westerplatte at 0445 (0245 GMT).
The ceremony marked the exact time on 1 September 1939 when the German battleship Schleswig-Holstein opened fire at point-blank range on the fort.
At the same time, the German Wehrmacht invaded Poland from east, west and south. The attacks triggered Britain and France's declaration of war against Germany two days later.


Important symbol


Poles, though, have long seen the Nazi-Soviet Non-Aggression Treaty, signed a week before war started, as the starting gun for the German invasion, says the BBC's Jonny Dymond in Gdansk.
Just two weeks later, in mid-September 1939, the Soviet armies occupied eastern Poland.
Speaking at the ceremony, Mr Kaczynski said: "On 17 September... Poland received a stab in the back... This blow came from Bolshevik Russia."
He added: "Glory to the heroes of Westerplatte, glory to all of the soldiers who fought in World War II against German Nazism, and against Bolshevik totalitarianism."
In his address, Mr Tusk said the lessons of history should not be forgotten.
"We remember because we know well that he who forgets, or he who falsifies history, and has power or will assume power will bring unhappiness again like 70 years ago," he said.


At the time of the attack by the Schleswig-Holstein - which was moored in the Polish harbour on a friendship visit - Gdansk was known as the free city of Danzig.
The 182 Polish troops defending the Polish fort were expected to resist for about 12 hours. Despite coming under fire from the air, sea and land, they held out against a force of more than 3,000 Germans for seven days.
According to a survey published on Monday, Westerplatte is the most important symbol of Polish resistance in the whole of the war.
A wreath-laying ceremony will take place later in the day and, of the speeches expected throughout the ceremonies, it is Mr Putin's which is the most keenly anticipated in Poland.
According to the historian Professor Pawel Machcewicz, the Poles are expecting some sort of gesture from Mr Putin.


Thorny relations


Two weeks after the German invasion, the Red Army invaded and annexed eastern Poland under terms agreed in the secret protocol of a Nazi-Soviet pact.
In early 1940, the Soviet secret services murdered more than 20,000 Polish officers in the forests around Katyn. For 50 years Moscow blamed the Nazis and only admitted responsibility for the crime in 1990.
Russian courts have ruled that Katyn cannot be considered a war crime and Moscow is still refusing to declassify documents about the massacre.
The temperature was raised further this week with accusations broadcast on Russian state TV which implied the USSR was justified in its invasion of Poland because Warsaw had been conspiring with Hitler against Moscow.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8230678.stm

[Adar]

A wreath-laying ceremony will take place later in the day and, of the speeches expected throughout the ceremonies, it is Mr Putin's which is the most keenly anticipated in Poland.
According to the historian Professor Pawel Machcewicz, the Poles are expecting some sort of gesture from Mr Putin.

It should be noted that he have already written an open letter in a Polish newspaper. Condeming the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact as immoral but necessary due to the Munich agreement.

[thrashing_mad]

Too bad that Russians continue ridiculous media campaign regarding WW2 and Poland. Like crazy conspiracy theory here.

[Adar]

Too bad that Russians continue ridiculous media campaign regarding WW2 and Poland. Like crazy conspiracy theory here.

It is sad that not all Russians show the mental capabilities of Mr Putin.

Roadwarrior posted an english language paper on Putins statements that I mentioned earlier.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/...253589240.html
RUSSIAN PRIME minister Vladimir Putin has urged western states to use today’s anniversary of the start of the second World War to overcome cold war-era suspicions and work with Moscow to form a new system of collective security.
On the eve of his visit to Poland to attend commemorative events, Mr Putin also called for reconciliation between Warsaw and Moscow, and rejected the view that a Soviet deal with Nazi Germany that carved up eastern Europe helped start the second World War.
Denouncing alleged efforts to “rewrite” history, Mr Putin said western appeasement of Adolf Hitler had left the Soviet Union with little choice but to sign a pact with him. “There are full grounds to condemn the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact of August 1939. But, after all, a year earlier France and England signed a well-known agreement with Hitler in Munich, destroying all hope for the creation of a joint front for the fight against fascism,” he wrote in Poland’s Gazeta Wyborcza newspaper.
Germany started the war by attacking Poland on September 1st, 1939, just days after Nazi foreign minister Joachim von Ribbentrop signed a mutual non-aggression treaty with Soviet counterpart Vyacheslav Molotov. Soviet troops invaded Poland 16 days later, acting on the deal with Hitler to divide Europe. Germany invaded the Soviet Union in 1941.
Mr Putin admitted that “today, we understand that any kind of collusion with the Nazi regime was morally unacceptable”, but insisted that the Soviet Union – which was already fighting a border war with Japan – was justified in seeking to avoid a conflict with mighty Germany.
“It is necessary for all of us, both in western and eastern Europe, to remember what tragedies can result from . . . seeking to ensure security and national interests at the expense of others,” Mr Putin wrote. “And there is another lesson to be drawn from history . . . that it is impossible to set up an efficient system of collective security without involvement of all countries of the continent, including Russia.”
His words had particular resonance in Poland, which hopes to host a US missile-defence system that Russia considers a grave threat to its own security.
Mr Putin struck a conciliatory note with Warsaw, saying his compatriots, “who were crippled by a totalitarian regime, fully understand the sensitiveness of Poles about Katyn” – the place where Soviet forces massacred some 20,000 Polish prisoners of war.

[thrashing_mad]

It is sad that not all Russians show the mental capabilities of Mr Putin.

Yes, Putin was very diplomatic and friendly throughout today, i`m very pleasantly surprised. Unfortunately, those other Russians are not some random people, but state officials or state media.

[YuriVII]

Well Poland sure had a motive to dismember the USSR, but I doubt the Second Republic's capabilities in such endeavor. Before you dismiss thoes reports, keep in mind that Poland has a long history of inciting such problems in Ukraine and Belarus. Aswell, remember that Polish leader Josef Pilsudski instituted (or wanted to acoording to the best of his country's power) such a policy to rip apart the Soviet Union. This is called his "Promethean Program." Here is wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prometheism for a breif overview on these details. It seems sucha program was known about long before these Russian intelligence archives were opened, which was just a cheap political shot to answer other cheap political shots done by both sides.

[CarbEast]

Too bad that Russians continue ridiculous media campaign regarding WW2 and Poland. Like crazy conspiracy theory here.

I wonder if your statement consider "Russians" as some kind of hive-minded community, where everyone do and think the same way.

Also the only way to immediately dismiss these claims as "crazy conspiracy theory" is by thinking of Poland as a country populated with some tens of millions of Dalai-Lamas. That's the only way of thinking that makes it possible to assume Poland wouldn't act in any way against obvious enemy.

[Carach]

It should be noted that he have already written an open letter in a Polish newspaper. Condeming the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact as immoral but necessary due to the Munich agreement.

putin makes a good point on several occasions (and its nice to know that he still has a friendly side eh), but saying the pact was 'necessary' due to the Munich agreement is .. rather iffy.

[B5C]

Remember the Battle of Wizna, the Polish "Thermopylae."

[Nikitn]

Arghh, I'm getting a head-ache. Can the Poles stop trolling, comparing USSR to Nazi Germany and saying they were innocent? Fact is, Poland was an imperialistic, opportunitist state. I find Poles whining about being invaded by USSR in 1939 extremely pathetic (considering what they had done to USSR and Russia 20 years before).

Remember the Battle of Wizna, the Polish "Thermopylae."

Hardly. The Poles took heavier casualties then the Germans (just far less heavy then usual).

[B5C]

Hardly. The Poles took heavier casualties then the Germans (just far less heavy then usual).

Far less??

Poles started with 720 men and the battle ended with only 40 of them still alive.

[wudang_clown]

Far less??

Poles started with 720 men and the battle ended with only 40 of them still alive.

Well, we don't know how many men did Germans lose, so we can't say who lost more.

[ThorHa]

I find Poles whining about being invaded by USSR in 1939 extremely pathetic (considering what they had done to USSR and Russia 20 years before).

Yep, poor, poor non imperialistic Russians. How unfair that Poland remembered the three Polish separations between German nations (Austria and Prussia) and Russia, after which Poland ceased to exist.

That said the Poles I discussed the issue with are not "whining" about being invaded by Russia. They are simply stating that the Soviet Union and Germany where equally doing the same thing - without any good reason attacking a country and mass murdering afterwards (Katyn is only the best known example for Soviet mass murder).

And if I take your argument serious - great news. So no German needs to regret the invasion of the USSR 1941 - considering that the USSR core (Russia) had invaded Germany just 25 years ago. Thanks :-).

Regards,

Thorsten

[BlackPirate]

Yep, poor, poor non imperialistic Russians. How unfair that Poland remembered the three Polish separations between German nations (Austria and Prussia) and Russia, after which Poland ceased to exist.

That said the Poles I discussed the issue with are not "whining" about being invaded by Russia. They are simply stating that the Soviet Union and Germany where equally doing the same thing - without any good reason attacking a country and mass murdering afterwards (Katyn is only the best known example for Soviet mass murder).

And if I take your argument serious - great news. So no German needs to regret the invasion of the USSR 1941 - considering that the USSR core (Russia) had invaded Germany just 25 years ago. Thanks :-).

Regards,

Thorsten

...and Poland made an alliance with Nazi Germany to take Chechoslobakian territory.They made Nazis more powerfull diplomatically but then not only they wanted Soviets to throw Nazis away, but they wanted Soviets to do it on their own conditions.Well first learn and condemn the mistakes of your own country and then condemn other countries

Bty who helped Poland to expand its borders to the west?We cry about the borders annexed by Soviets to the east, and we forget about the more important territories we took in the west.This is very arrogant

[wudang_clown]

...and Poland made an alliance with Nazi Germany to take Chechoslobakian territory.They made Nazis more powerfull diplomatically but then not only they wanted Soviets to throw Nazis away, but they wanted Soviets to do it on their own conditions.Well first learn and condemn the mistakes of your own country and then condemn other countries

If for you a pact of non-agression is equal to an alliance, then I'm sorry for you. Poland has no issue with the Czechs, so it is not Russian business. Russian business should be to apologize Poland as well as other conquered or enslaved nations for crimes of stalinism. Focus on that, instead of seeking alliances between Poland and Nazi Germany, because you will waste your time and embarass yourself.

Bty who helped Poland to expand its borders to the west?We cry about the borders annexed by Soviets to the east, and we forget about the more important territories we took in the west.This is very arrogant

No-one helped Poland to gain the lands. It was Great Three, who decided about division of Europe. Poles didn't ask of Germans lands, Poles wanted their lands from before 1939. Stalin has his own conception, so he moved the borders and resettled millions of people here and there. Period. Now Russians can say that Crimea is Russian, f.e.

And the Poles cooperated with Nazis in destroying Chechoslobakia

You can repeat this till the end of the world, but it has no meaning other than some historic-fiction. You won't simply find any evidences of such 'cooperation', because there was no cooperation. Although it was atrocious deed to put forward the ultimatum in such a moment.

[Tiberios]

Arghh, I'm getting a head-ache. Can the Poles stop trolling, comparing USSR to Nazi Germany and saying they were innocent? Fact is, Poland was an imperialistic, opportunitist state. I find Poles whining about being invaded by USSR in 1939 extremely pathetic (considering what they had done to USSR and Russia 20 years before).

Personally I find it sad that the Russians cannot seem to comprehend that cooperating with Nazi Germany in dividing Easten Europe cannot really be excused. And it does not really matter at all what Poland did or did not do 20 years before or with Czechoslovakia. Doing something because others did it, does not make it right.

[BlackPirate]

Personally I find it sad that the Russians cannot seem to comprehend that cooperating with Nazi Germany in dividing Easten Europe cannot really be excused. And it does not really matter at all what Poland did or did not do 20 years before or with Czechoslovakia. Doing something because others did it, does not make it right.

And the Poles cooperated with Nazis in destroying Chechoslobakia

[Pickle_mole]

how many leaders where there? did Obama go? did Biden? No they sent a nobody, they insulted Poland, an ally, and this sheds more light on this administrations ineptitude for foreign policy.

[Carach]

how many leaders where there? did Obama go? did Biden? No they sent a nobody, they insulted Poland, an ally, and this sheds more light on this administrations ineptitude for foreign policy.

in what way does this insult Poland? Obama cant be everywhere at once celebrating/commemorating/remembering everything.

if he had been there ud be whining that he is neglecting his own country's governing.

[BlackPirate]

Its funny how after both the West and the Soviets "betrayed" Chechoslovakia and Poland, trying to make Hitler to go in war with the other side, they are frustrated today by the fact that the other side had exactly the same type of policy.With one difference.Western "betrayal" was even more serious because it let Chechoslovakia(sp?)to be fully annexed by the Nazis.At least the Soviets managed to take some parts of Poland that they considered they were Russian