UK MoD Bans Live Ammo Training

[Ebusitanus]

From http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...ve-rounds.html

Soldiers banned from training with live rounds

Soldiers are being told they cannot train with live ammunition unless they are due to go to Afghanistan, according to reports.

Ian Johnston

30 Aug 2009

Ministry of Defence cutbacks mean that troops are being issue with blank rounds, which cost about 10p, instead of live rounds which cost about 30p. The MoD said the "ever-improving quality" of computer simulation had also reduced the need for live fire training.

Sources told The Sunday Times that the ban would affect everyone in the Territorial Army and also some regular Army units.

An officer told the newspaper: "We've been told we cannot fire live rounds unless we are going to Afghanistan. How on earth is a professional soldier supposed to be able to keep up with his skills like that?

"It is absolutely wretched. It is a total farce."

Troops must pass a yearly test showing they can properly maintain their weapons and shoot with a reasonable degree of accuracy.

Conservative MP Patrick Mercer, who was an officer in the infantry, said cutting back on live firing could have serious consequences.

"The idea that our front line reserves should not be able to use live rounds is quite extraordinary," he said.

"We can't have a popgun army. The next thing you know we'll be reduced to Dad's Army-style training, shouting 'bang bang.'"

The Ministry of Defence said: "The top priority is to train those about to deploy to Afghanistan, but the training of others continues.

"The ever-improving quality of simulation technologies has reduced the need to rely on live-fire exercises, although they still play an important role."

Nothing like training to shoot without having to worry about recoil, eh? LOL.

[Richard]

Ha, computer simulation. Fine for something that's more theory such as pilot training, but judging distances and stuff can't really be simulated as well as reality surely?

[Azog 150]

Jesus Christ. When will the MOD get its bloody act together?

[Tiberios]

What the heck is the British MoD doing. Way to screw your own army.

[Treize]

Quite silly, really.

What the heck is the British MoD doing. Way to screw your own army.

Hear, hear!
Total failure, just total failure:
http://www.fmn.dk/Nyt%20og%20Presse/...ta%20sheet.pdf
http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/mi...0-2014-a-9240/

[Carach]

Jesus Christ. When will the MOD get its bloody act together?

they wont. theyve had every criticism under the sun thrown at them by anyone that actually knows something about Military matters and theyve still trucked along screwing up the Armed Forces.

The military's been cut to the bone, and now we're sheering off marrow....

that being said, the article is vague; doesnt delve into training methods to explain why this should be such big news.

[Boyar Son]

Jesus Christ. When will the MOD Gov't get its bloody act together?

fix'd?

[Sidmen]

In WW2, troops would practice by going "Bang Bang" with wooden weapons till they were about to be deployed.

We got through that all right.

[Phier]

In WW2, troops would practice by going "Bang Bang" with wooden weapons till they were about to be deployed.

We got through that all right.

400k killed or MIA for the UK in WWII, lets not go that route again

[Erik]

In WW2, troops would practice by going "Bang Bang" with wooden weapons till they were about to be deployed.

We got through that all right.

And the Roman legionaries used to practice with wooden swords.
They did pretty well too.

[Oldgamer]

And the Roman legionaries used to practice with wooden swords.
They did pretty well too.

Erik, believe me when I say that I'm not picking on you, over the last couple of days! Besides, you can defend yourself quite nicely.

Practicing with wooden swords is all good and well, in an army that uses them. In the movies, and in stage productions, practice is with "wasters" ... wooden swords about the size and shape that will be used in the production, and the choreography of the fights always begins with them. In one production, I had a fight with another actor using broadswords, and practice with wasters saves a lot of money, because steel weapons break.

But having served in the military, and being a big fan of video games, I don't see how someone can become proficient with firearms, using blanks or games. I used to play America's Army, and did quite well in it. But every game can be beaten by figuring out how it works. This isn't even cheating ... this is understanding how the game functions, and using its quirks to your own advantage (for example, I used to employ the 56-bug in Medieval Total War to defeat the problems a "Catholic" player might have with the papacy ... attack a country when the Pope is 55, he excommunicates you, and dies shortly thereafter, ending your excommunication).

The security force at a nearby nuke plant has to re-qualify on the range every two months, and do stress-firing every three months. Shouldn't the MoD require as much proficiency at arms as an American security force?

[justicar5]

Erik, believe me when I say that I'm not picking on you, over the last couple of days! Besides, you can defend yourself quite nicely.

Practicing with wooden swords is all good and well, in an army that uses them. In the movies, and in stage productions, practice is with "wasters" ... wooden swords about the size and shape that will be used in the production, and the choreography of the fights always begins with them. In one production, I had a fight with another actor using broadswords, and practice with wasters saves a lot of money, because steel weapons break.

But having served in the military, and being a big fan of video games, I don't see how someone can become proficient with firearms, using blanks or games. I used to play America's Army, and did quite well in it. But every game can be beaten by figuring out how it works. This isn't even cheating ... this is understanding how the game functions, and using its quirks to your own advantage (for example, I used to employ the 56-bug in Medieval Total War to defeat the problems a "Catholic" player might have with the papacy ... attack a country when the Pope is 55, he excommunicates you, and dies shortly thereafter, ending your excommunication).

The security force at a nearby nuke plant has to re-qualify on the range every two months, and do stress-firing every three months. Shouldn't the MoD require as much proficiency at arms as an American security force?

The article is about the TA effectivly our National Guard, only using live rounds to do qualifications or in training before deployment. The regulars will use the same ammo as they always have.

[Oldgamer]

The article is about the TA effectivly our National Guard, only using live rounds to do qualifications or in training before deployment. The regulars will use the same ammo as they always have.

No insult intended!

I still believe that men who might have to defend their country, someday, should be as least as proficient at arms as an American nuke plant security team. Do these troops ever get "nationalized", and sent overseas?

[Thanatos]

In WW2, troops would practice by going "Bang Bang" with wooden weapons till they were about to be deployed.

We got through that all right.

That was also when we had a crappy military, and we won not only because of our doctrines, but also because we churned out so much crap that the superior German military couldn't cope with it, since superior things require more material to construct.

However, I digress. This is a completely idiotic thing the UK MoD is doing.

[The Alcotroll]

This is a completely idiotic thing the UK MoD is doing.

Aarrgh! No it isn't! Why is nobody listening?

For most of our training we CAN'T use live ing rounds!

How many frigging times do I have to say it?

[mongrel]

Are there any serving soldiers than can confirm what this story is on about? I used blank rounds in the late eighties/early nineties in field exercises, with live rounds reserved for skill at arms. This hardly seems new to me.

[The Alcotroll]

Are there any serving soldiers than can confirm what this story is on about? I used blank rounds in the late eighties/early nineties in field exercises, with live rounds reserved for skill at arms. This hardly seems new to me.

The usual journalistic formulae: First simplify, then exaggerate.

It's true we don't do nearly enough live shooting (as TA anyway), and I've only fired live three times this year- once during my Annual Personal Weapons Test- which I have to pass if I expect to get paid.

To be honest, I've spent most of my time in the TA and the OTC firing blanks (ho ho) and its never seemed to worry anyone before. In fact, most of the training we do involves a live enemy who can manouevre and react to your actions, as well as a roving civ-pop generally getting in the way. For obvious reasons, you can't fire live in those sort of circumstances.

This looks to me like another media non-story. I'm much more concerned about the TA having it's training days slashed massively- to the point that my unit, which expects to deploy in 2010, won't be doing any field training excercises between now and April- and will be asked to continue week-day training without being paid two days out of three in every month.

ing MOD s....

[shadyrome]

Every pennys counts!

[Каие]

"We can't have a popgun army. The next thing you know we'll be reduced to Dad's Army-style training, shouting 'bang bang.'"

ing lol!



But seriously, I thought this was common practise? As mongrel said, it has happened in the past.... and last time I went to a barracks they were using blanks too. I mean it is the job of the opposition party to spin things into seeming insane... and to the average citizen, no doubt reading a sensationalised EXCLAMATION MARK ridden The Sun version on a morning, it will seem intolerable. If it isn't common practise, in Britain at least (don't care what the American-blue-on-blue Brigade and fierce French warriors get up to) then balancing a budget on the backs of young men who aer expected to fightone of the fiercest and dangerous enemies Britain has fought in decades.... is an insane idea. The MOD should get it's act together.

Speaking of the MOD....the MOD is an abomination and should be scrapped (sorry tBP!). Let the Army run the Army way out of government incompetent management and stop it being political party football. Let civilians deal with civilian affairs.

[Carach]

Speaking of the MOD....the MOD is an abomination and should be scrapped (sorry tBP!). Let the Army run the Army way out of government incompetent management and stop it being political party football. Let civilians deal with civilian affairs.

reason why government policies on defence has generally been shite for decades is the continuing decline of members in parliament/lords with a defence-related history. This is painfully clear for the navy especially, as the army remains in relative strength when pushing for political change.

then we allow NL to fill thousands of jobs with red tape. yayyyyyyyy