Sword and Buckler Men

[meese]

I was wondering what people actually use these guys for.

I've always used light infantry as "fillers" and fodder, but at 940 gold recruitment cost, Sword and Buckler Men hardly fit that role. Yet they don't fit the frontline role either, because of their low-ish defence at 16 and pretty mediocre attack of 6. Flanking they're not particularly good at either because of the 3 (maybe 4?) charge, and nor do they have AP so against heavy infantry, they're pretty poor.

I guess the heat resistance is one upside, but that hardly justifies the high cost I think.

So what do you use them for?

(I'm using RR/RC, but I found they were always somewhat useless next to other infantry without the mod too)

[LostWraith]

They are the ideal late era light infantry. They move very quickly because of their light weight, and are more tactically more maneuverable than heavily armored foot knights. They have a light sword, and so attack faster. They are useful against skirmishers and for flanking (due to their speed), but can't take charges or fight long term against heavily armored infantry.

I think they are a very good unit, perfectly complementing Spain's pike heavy late roster. Tercios and swords work wonders in the game as they do IRL. Tercios can do everything swords can't and these light swords do everything tercios can't (maneuver, flank, chase skirmishers, etc).

[Lemming69]

good backup units - useful in the second line of battle or concealed behind front line troops to spring out on the flanks

[Warmaster Tibs]

They may suck in long drawn out fighting but you cant deny that their clothes look "FABULOUS!"

[Goofy]

Sword and Buckler Men are extremely tough when compared with other light infantry; they are a lot better than the worst heavy infantry units. And that's quite much demanded from a light unit.

[Staffen]

Those guys can't do anything my light cavalry can't do, which will also have a crapload of chevrons by the time the bucklerboys become available.

[Goofy]

Those guys can't do anything my light cavalry can't do, which will also have a crapload of chevrons by the time the bucklerboys become available.

I guess your light cavalry can't battle with heavy infantry for several minutes in success.

[meese]

The problem is they cost too much compared to other units and end up filling a pseudo-cavalry/heavy infantry role, but unable to do the job as well. Mounted Sergeants cover the flanking very well (faster/more charge/one third cheaper at 300 not 900/and not designed to fight heavy infantry as you suggested) and I don't think simply being better than other light infantry really qualifies for a 900 recruitment cost As for being better than other heavy infantry, true, but those usually cost around 5/600 maximum, so the extra 300 at least is still a pain. Especially if they're only going to sit around waiting to flank with 3/4 charge, when you could get 3 mounted sergeants flanking three units at once, or actually killing archers not just chasing them away.

LostWraith, I never thought about Spain to be honest Always been looking at Sicily and I think you're right...but Sicily doesn't get good pike units

Oh, and Warmaster Tibs, the main reason why I use them is because they look so good

[LostWraith]

The problem is they cost too much compared to other units and end up filling a pseudo-cavalry/heavy infantry role, but unable to do the job as well. Mounted Sergeants cover the flanking very well (faster/more charge/one third cheaper at 300 not 900/and not designed to fight heavy infantry as you suggested) and I don't think simply being better than other light infantry really qualifies for a 900 recruitment cost As for being better than other heavy infantry, true, but those usually cost around 5/600 maximum, so the extra 300 at least is still a pain. Especially if they're only going to sit around waiting to flank with 3/4 charge, when you could get 3 mounted sergeants flanking three units at once, or actually killing archers not just chasing them away.

LostWraith, I never thought about Spain to be honest Always been looking at Sicily and I think you're right...but Sicily doesn't get good pike units

Oh, and Warmaster Tibs, the main reason why I use them is because they look so good

Against an army mostly comprised on heavy infantry, snb (swords and bucklermen for short ) doesn't do well, but against a late era army.

It's got more attack than pretty much any other swordsmen, and because it's lightly armored it can move faster. There's a lot of guns on the late era battlefield, and slow heavier infantry might do better in melee but they'll take a lot of casualties from gunfire. Cavalry can't take care of everything like they used to once pikes and halberds come into play, but those units are usually demolished by an equal cost number of snb because of snb has low armor (halberds not cost effective) and attack quickly and deadly (very high attack for swords, even chivalric foot knights don't top them). Sure, they can't hold the line, but with the wealth of tercio pikes and guns you don't need them too. Unleash them when the lines have clashed, and they'll get the job done with great efficiency at a low cost (compared to cavalry)

Truly, with these guys + tercios + muskets, cavalry becomes secondary later on.

[Staffen]

I guess your light cavalry can't battle with heavy infantry for several minutes in success.

Yes they can. By then, I have gold chevron mounted sergeants or demilancers / stradiots / etc that bring bucketloads of pain to anything with an exposed flank. Better yet, while the sword and bucklers can fight a squad or two, taking losses as well as dishing them out over the course of a few minutes, a single unit of light cavalry can be all over the field at the same time, easily charging 5-6 units and leaving about 20 soldiers dead.

[Goofy]

Yes they can. By then, I have gold chevron mounted sergeants or demilancers / stradiots / etc

Try without those chevrons. And I meant that you can't keep your position with cavalry. Of course "hit and run" works better, but you can't defense a certain place with cavalry, at least then if you don't have enough space to charge.

[bɑne]

By then, I have gold chevron mounted sergeants

You can't tell me that (re)training that unit was less expensive then 900....

[Staffen]

No, but it's more immersive to keep around 'squads' throughout a game

[bɑne]

No, but it's more immersive to keep around 'squads' throughout a game

Absolutly true but shows that the price isnt that unjustified compared to the work (of keeping the squads alive) and retraining costs

[LostWraith]

Even then, gold chev mounted sergeants will die faster to missiles and is far more vulnerable to pikes and halberds. SnB serve a similar function to them but do the job better at the cost of absolute speed.

Not to mention that SnB are late professionals and can be trained in large numbers very quickly, unlike most early game units which have a long waiting time.

I like to keep my units early in the game, but later on the situation usually calls for large masses of troops that can be quickly trained, so even if armored sergeants are just as good as say voulgiers and obviously better than vanilla spearmen, my French armies' infantry consistent of pretty much only voulgiers and spearmen.

[bɑne]

The only reason for me to keep mounted sergeants later on is to harass routing units. One thing that I didnt read so far is Siege and cityfights.
A sword unit with that kind of attack should have an interesting impact on the battlements especially against spear based defenders.
Can anyone confirm or elaborate this?