The stupidity that is Madonna

[Carpathian Wolf]

http://www.eonline.com/uberblog/b141...g_gypsies.html

http://www.mtv.com/news/articles/161.../madonna.jhtml


=========================


The issue that the Romanian people have with what she said isn't because they are somehow against gypsies. Gypsies are everywhere in the media. George Enescu one of Romania's greatest composers would take his friend to the village of gypsies to show him that they were genius musicians. We've lived through the good and bad with the gypsies admiring their positives and having to deal with their negatives as well. Then the west comes to us and suddenly says we're discriminating against them. So we said alright, you show us how should be done. We've been living them hundreds of years and Europe has already been sick of them within a year and a half. Look at Italy's media, or how in France the gypsies are IDed.

"Ironically, these same fans were cheering the Gypsy performers just before her speech."

From the second article I picked this up. Yea no crap...because the reason the Romanians were booing is because Madonna starting giving us moral lessons. We have nothing against gypsies.

[Moorish guy]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P3On7Nogkac turn up the volume

[Ciabhán]

http://www.eonline.com/uberblog/b141...g_gypsies.html

http://www.mtv.com/news/articles/161.../madonna.jhtml


=========================


The issue that the Romanian people have with what she said isn't because they are somehow against gypsies. Gypsies are everywhere in the media. George Enescu one of Romania's greatest composers would take his friend to the village of gypsies to show him that they were genius musicians. We've lived through the good and bad with the gypsies admiring their positives and having to deal with their negatives as well. Then the west comes to us and suddenly says we're discriminating against them. So we said alright, you show us how should be done. We've been living them hundreds of years and Europe has already been sick of them within a year and a half. Look at Italy's media, or how in France the gypsies are IDed.

"Ironically, these same fans were cheering the Gypsy performers just before her speech."

From the second article I picked this up. Yea no crap...because the reason the Romanians were booing is because Madonna starting giving us moral lessons. We have nothing against gypsies.

Calling them gypsies is in itself a prejudice. Similar to me calling you taran or verbes or hunkie, or you calling me paddy.

I have seen how they are treated in parts of Eastern Europe though I have never been to Romania. If it is anything like most people treat the Travellers where I am from it is with a mixture of loathing and reluctant acceptance of the fact that they are there.

That being said I agree that Madonna is a bloody stupid cow and should be drowned.

[Henry707]

Calling them gypsies is in itself a prejudice. Similar to me calling you taran or verbes or hunkie, or you calling me paddy.

I have seen how they are treated in parts of Eastern Europe though I have never been to Romania. If it is anything like most people treat the Travellers where I am from it is with a mixture of loathing and reluctant acceptance of the fact that they are there.

That being said I agree that Madonna is a bloody stupid cow and should be drowned.

Paddy,

I agree with you - particularly on Madonna.

Henri

[Carpathian Wolf]

No it isn't prejudice to call them gypsies. Tigani, tsigani, cigani, whatever, is the name that they always used for themselves.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xi6ds...eature=related

One of the biggest gypsy stars even went on TV and said "i'm a gypsy. (tigan) I'm not a 'Rrom.' That means nothing to me i'm a gypsy."


Taran just means peasant. I don't know what verbes or hunkie is.

[Exarch]

Madonna's just pulling off the 'oh i'm tho morally thuperior to youse all' which she does all the fricking time, look up the definition of an arrogant and there'd be a pic of her.

on ze other hand, i've heard stories of Romanians' growing support of far right groups so tat is also a cause of concern.

on another hand, gypsies are notorious for robbing and pickpocketing tourists, since i have only personal anecdotes to support this assertion, take from it what you will.

[ShockBlast]

on ze other hand, i've heard stories of Romanians' growing support of far right groups so tat is also a cause of concern.

Nope that is wrong,PRM is not growing at all and they are there to counter the Hungarian nationalists they don't have anything with the Gypsies

on another hand, gypsies are notorious for robbing and pickpocketing tourists, since i have only personal anecdotes to support this assertion, take from it what you will.

Any time a gypsy from Romania does something bad i hear only the word ''Romanian'' coming out of the mouth of the western media.
There are good gypsies and a lot of them are changing.

[Ciabhán]

No it isn't prejudice to call them gypsies. Tigani, tsigani, cigani, whatever, is the name that they always used for themselves.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xi6ds...eature=related

One of the biggest gypsy stars even went on TV and said "i'm a gypsy. (tigan) I'm not a 'Rrom.' That means nothing to me i'm a gypsy."


Taran just means peasant. I don't know what verbes or hunkie is.

I know a few 'gypsies' and they seem to think that the word is offensive when used by non-'gypsies' as it is meant to mean that they are cheap. Similar to me calling myself a mick, or paddy, or shant bastard, or bog-trotter, or Taig. I can call myself those names and people I consider friends can call me any of those names. Though if someone I don't know uses them I may take offense depending on the context.

I know that taran is offensive in certain context. Similar to me calling someone a culchie or an American calling someone a redneck or hillbilly. Not the worst insult by any means but can be used insultingly. Verbes is a slur for Romanians not sure where it comes from but I heard it over there. Hunkie is used to refer to anyone of Eastern European descent as if they all came from Hungaria(Americans couldn't tell the difference between Eastern Europeans from the Soviet Bloc countries).

[Carpathian Wolf]

on ze other hand, i've heard stories of Romanians' growing support of far right groups so tat is also a cause of concern.

If you're talking about the New Right of Vadim Tudor, nobody votes for them. They're less than the Green Party in America.

Aside from that there are no parties of the right in Romania period. Maybe PNL (Partidul National Liberal.)

I know a few 'gypsies' and they seem to think that the word is offensive when used by non-'gypsies' as it is meant to mean that they are cheap. Similar to me calling myself a mick, or paddy, or shant bastard, or bog-trotter, or Taig. I can call myself those names and people I consider friends can call me any of those names. Though if someone I don't know uses them I may take offense depending on the context.

I know that taran is offensive in certain context. Similar to me calling someone a culchie or an American calling someone a redneck or hillbilly. Not the worst insult by any means but can be used insultingly. Verbes is a slur for Romanians not sure where it comes from but I heard it over there. Hunkie is used to refer to anyone of Eastern European descent as if they all came from Hungaria(Americans couldn't tell the difference between Eastern Europeans from the Soviet Bloc countries).

Yea those gypsies you know are full of crap btw because their mothers never called them "Rrom" ever in their life. It was always tigani. There's nothing racist about the word, it's simply the word used for them, by them. It's just a political ploy to get pity by certain gypsies.

[Ciabhán]

Yea those gypsies you know are full of crap btw because their mothers never called them "Rrom" ever in their life. It was always tigani. There's nothing racist about the word, it's simply the word used for them, by them. It's just a political ploy to get pity by certain gypsies.

I assume Rrom is the proper form of Roma or Romani. I have no idea what tigani is. However........


"The English term Gypsy (or Gipsy) originates from the Greek word Αιγύπτοι (Aigyptoi, whence modern Greek γύφτοι gifti), in the erroneous belief that the Romanies originated in Egypt, and were exiled as punishment for allegedly harboring the infant Jesus.[26] This exonym is sometimes written with capital letter, to show that it designates an ethnic group.[27]
As described in Victor Hugo's novel The Hunchback of Notre Dame, the medieval French referred to the Romanies as egyptiens. The term has come to bear pejorative connotations. However, use of the word "Gypsy" in English has now become so pervasive that many Romani organizations use it in their own organizational names."



Gypsy CAN BE insulting or prejudiced when used by non-gypsies. Just like shant or paddy can be insults when an Englishman says them to an Irishman but not when we call ourselves those names. Just because a group has adopted a commonly used slur does not make it less of a slur. Like black Americans and .

Apparently when translating the word into and from certain other languages and English it translates as 'the untouchables' that is where the perjorative comes from.

[Carpathian Wolf]

I assume Rrom is the proper form of Roma or Romani. I have no idea what tigani is. However........


"The English term Gypsy (or Gipsy) originates from the Greek word Αιγύπτοι (Aigyptoi, whence modern Greek γύφτοι gifti), in the erroneous belief that the Romanies originated in Egypt, and were exiled as punishment for allegedly harboring the infant Jesus.[26] This exonym is sometimes written with capital letter, to show that it designates an ethnic group.[27]
As described in Victor Hugo's novel The Hunchback of Notre Dame, the medieval French referred to the Romanies as egyptiens. The term has come to bear pejorative connotations. However, use of the word "Gypsy" in English has now become so pervasive that many Romani organizations use it in their own organizational names."



Gypsy CAN BE insulting or prejudiced when used by non-gypsies. Just like shant or paddy can be insults when an Englishman says them to an Irishman but not when we call ourselves those names. Just because a group has adopted a commonly used slur does not make it less of a slur. Like black Americans and .

Apparently when translating the word into and from certain other languages and English it translates as 'the untouchables' that is where the perjorative comes from.

Sure I mean if one wanted to be an anal politically correct wank bag I guess one could go that route.

But in any case this isn't one of those cases. "Tigani" is the equivalent for gypsy. (Tsee-ghan-knee). And low and behold an actual gypsy here on the forum said I was correct about the term. Rrom, Roma, and Romani are politically inclined names in order to gain sympathy. They can go to the west and say "oh those Romanians call us gypsy." Mean while it's the name and term that has always been used all the time. To us Roma is a city in Italy. Romani is what WE call ourselves. Noi suntem Romani, din Imparatul Traian.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PBUYn...eature=related

[Thorn777]

@Ciabhan

Tsigani is directly stemming from the term the Byzantines called them/us=the first Euros in contact with them/us.

Roma or Rom came much later and just means people literally(also in the Roma society/culture), but both is essentially correct.

I used to think the German word Zigeuner(stemming from Tsigani) means "move on crook" as in the German words Zie = move on, and Ga(e)uner = crook.

I was wrong. Look up wikipedia for the term Tsigani.

EDIT: the English term derived from the unusual to the English word Tsigani, and they changed it to Gypsy's, which does aim at Egypt, but I dont think thats insulting.

[Ciabhán]

Sure I mean if one wanted to be an anal politically correct wank bag I guess one could go that route.

But in any case this isn't one of those cases. "Tigani" is the equivalent for gypsy. (Tsee-ghan-knee). And low and behold an actual gypsy here on the forum said I was correct about the term. Rrom, Roma, and Romani are politically inclined names in order to gain sympathy. They can go to the west and say "oh those Romanians call us gypsy." Mean while it's the name and term that has always been used all the time. To us Roma is a city in Italy. Romani is what WE call ourselves. Noi suntem Romani, din Imparatul Traian.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PBUYn...eature=related

Yeah mate that last line of my post was the acknowledgement of that.

It seems that in most places Gypsy is not considered a perjorative term, Romania being one of them.

However in certain languages(when translated into that language)it is a nasty thing to call them.

I stand corrected on what is a fairly common misconception. Particularly considering that the Travellers here don't appreciate being called gypsies.


@Thorn: Yeah I saw that one. Apparently though in some places it is intentionally mistranslated into a word that means 'the untouchables'. I guess it depends on where the speaker and the gypsy are from....

[Thorn777]

I'm a half-Gypsy/Roma whatever and @CW is right about the use of the word. I thought differently as well, but learned on TWC.

As for Romania: it very much seems as Romania took a good course. Wile there are of course still problems vise versa, they show efforts in good projects(together with the EU as well), and other EE country's namingly Bulgaria and Hungary do allot worse and they should catch the attention of a world-star like Madonna.

Its IMO unfair to mock on Romania when they at least show effort considering the means and severe problems they have.

Italy deserves some slapping for a 1st world country to btw.

[s.rwitt]

Madonna's an idiot.

[Carpathian Wolf]

The issue with gypsies in Romania is minor compared to what many in the "civilized" western world do. Gypsies were never persecuted in Romania. To be honest our attitude was that we had bigger problems like the leaching government which is screwing everyone regardless of ethnic background. In Ireland for example they recently had riots against gypsies there. In France they ID them and in Italy they simply want to outlaw everyone from Romania, gypsy or Romanian...they don't even want to bother looking at the differences.

[Romano-Dacis]

The issue with gypsies in Romania is minor compared to what many in the "civilized" western world do. Gypsies were never persecuted in Romania.

Whoa whoa whoa. Maybe today their situation is relatively good (could be better) but we must admit there was slavery practiced against gypsies (and Tatars) in Romania. Gypsies were kept as "house guests" (essentially slaves) in many other countries, and they were kept to play music, be copper-smiths, or do some other eccentric thing (train bears?). I can think of many minorities in Romania who have had a more pleasant history.

In any case, this stuff on tolerance is beside the point. The real question is who is Madonna to try to educate others on gypsies when she lives in the US? What does she know? Is she an anthropologist? Her statement is very inappropriate, especially as it was done in a country which has been above-average when it comes to integrating gypsies. I wonder if she would ever dare to make such a statement in Italy, or does she risk losing too much money if she pisses off that demographic?

-Regarding names: Rrom/Rroma is not a term I agree with because the Rroms are only one (though major) part of the gypsy community. It would be inappropriate to apply it to gypsies in Southern Italy (Sinti) or those in Spain. The term "Gypsies" is wrong because it... just is wrong. It implies they are associated with Egypt, which they are not. For the same reason I think the term Roma should fall out of use since it creates a very clear association with Romania, Romanians, and possibly even the Romans. Just ask yourself: how would people interpret the sentence "The Romani-speaking Roma from Romania"? Thorn has told me before that this was not a problem but I am honestly not convinced. The recent media storms in Western Europe which are usually dealing with gypsy criminality but use national terms (see for instance the "Romanians" driven out of Belfast) don't help. The only correct term to apply to them IMO is Zingaro/Cigany/ţigani. The term has a historic significance, since it is derived from the Greek "athinganoi" (sp?) meaning "untouchables". This reflects the caste they came out of from India. While it may be a little anachronistic today it still is a term of historic significance and there is not something particularly offensive about it. The words "Slav" and "slave" both derive from the name of a Slavic tribe (Sclavini) but that doesn't mean Slavs should change their ethnic name because "it means slave".


I don't care what they call Gypsies. You can even name yourselves "ubermensch" if you wish. Just make sure it doesn't sound like any other European ethnonym. And just as a small note: changing a name won't make all the internal problems within the gypsy community go away.

[Thorn777]

Whoa whoa whoa. Maybe today their situation is relatively good (could be better) but we must admit there was slavery practiced against gypsies (and Tatars) in Romania. Gypsies were kept as "house guests" (essentially slaves) in many other countries, and they were kept to play music, be copper-smiths, or do some other eccentric thing (train bears?). I can think of many minorities in Romania who have had a more pleasant history.

In any case, this stuff on tolerance is beside the point. The real question is who is Madonna to try to educate others on gypsies when she lives in the US? What does she know? Is she an anthropologist? Her statement is very inappropriate, especially as it was done in a country which has been above-average when it comes to integrating gypsies. I wonder if she would ever dare to make such a statement in Italy, or does she risk losing too much money if she pisses off that demographic?

-Regarding names: Rrom/Rroma is not a term I agree with because the Rroms are only one (though major) part of the gypsy community. It would be inappropriate to apply it to gypsies in Southern Italy (Sinti) or those in Spain. The term "Gypsies" is wrong because it... just is wrong. It implies they are associated with Egypt, which they are not. For the same reason I think the term Roma should fall out of use since it creates a very clear association with Romania, Romanians, and possibly even the Romans. Just ask yourself: how would people interpret the sentence "The Romani-speaking Roma from Romania"? Thorn has told me before that this was not a problem but I am honestly not convinced. The recent media storms in Western Europe which are usually dealing with gypsy criminality but use national terms (see for instance the "Romanians" driven out of Belfast) don't help. The only correct term to apply to them IMO is Zingaro/Cigany/ţigani. The term has a historic significance, since it is derived from the Greek "athinganoi" (sp?) meaning "untouchables". This reflects the caste they came out of from India. While it may be a little anachronistic today it still is a term of historic significance and there is not something particularly offensive about it. The words "Slav" and "slave" both derive from the name of a Slavic tribe (Sclavini) but that doesn't mean Slavs should change their ethnic name because "it means slave".


I don't care what they call Gypsies. You can even name yourselves "ubermensch" if you wish. Just make sure it doesn't sound like any other European ethnonym. And just as a small note: changing a name won't make all the internal problems within the gypsy community go away.

About your reference of the meaning Tsigani: Ill bet the Byzantines didnt know what they where talking about either. Since the Sinti/Roma where expelled by Muslim invaders from the Sind delta, and this particular, till the day of today Muslim occupation of an former Hindu area only increased the quality of life for the lower casts(especially "the untouchables").

In Roma/Sinti tales they derived from the casts that consisted of the artists, holy and priests and where viewed as a demographic with to much traditional influence on the population and where therefore a treat for the Muslim invaders in terms of public order, so they expelled them.

Admitting, Its all debatable and unsure as there where no great efforts made by historians on this.

[yxc qwert!]

Whoa whoa whoa. Maybe today their situation is relatively good (could be better) but we must admit there was slavery practiced against gypsies (and Tatars) in Romania. Gypsies were kept as "house guests" (essentially slaves) in many other countries, and they were kept to play music, be copper-smiths, or do some other eccentric thing (train bears?). I can think of many minorities in Romania who have had a more pleasant history.

In any case, this stuff on tolerance is beside the point. The real question is who is Madonna to try to educate others on gypsies when she lives in the US? What does she know? Is she an anthropologist? Her statement is very inappropriate, especially as it was done in a country which has been above-average when it comes to integrating gypsies. I wonder if she would ever dare to make such a statement in Italy, or does she risk losing too much money if she pisses off that demographic?

-Regarding names: Rrom/Rroma is not a term I agree with because the Rroms are only one (though major) part of the gypsy community. It would be inappropriate to apply it to gypsies in Southern Italy (Sinti) or those in Spain. The term "Gypsies" is wrong because it... just is wrong. It implies they are associated with Egypt, which they are not. For the same reason I think the term Roma should fall out of use since it creates a very clear association with Romania, Romanians, and possibly even the Romans. Just ask yourself: how would people interpret the sentence "The Romani-speaking Roma from Romania"? Thorn has told me before that this was not a problem but I am honestly not convinced. The recent media storms in Western Europe which are usually dealing with gypsy criminality but use national terms (see for instance the "Romanians" driven out of Belfast) don't help. The only correct term to apply to them IMO is Zingaro/Cigany/ţigani. The term has a historic significance, since it is derived from the Greek "athinganoi" (sp?) meaning "untouchables". This reflects the caste they came out of from India. While it may be a little anachronistic today it still is a term of historic significance and there is not something particularly offensive about it. The words "Slav" and "slave" both derive from the name of a Slavic tribe (Sclavini) but that doesn't mean Slavs should change their ethnic name because "it means slave".


I don't care what they call Gypsies. You can even name yourselves "ubermensch" if you wish. Just make sure it doesn't sound like any other European ethnonym. And just as a small note: changing a name won't make all the internal problems within the gypsy community go away.

Please, why should Romani change their name? Why don't Romanians change their name? What about the term 'Vlach'?

[Carpathian Wolf]

Please, why should Romani change their name? Why don't Romanians change their name? What about the term 'Vlach'?

The term Vlach is a slavic exonym refering to latin people of the Balkans. We never used it for ourselves.

Why don't we change our name? We were here first. How's that for a reason?