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  1. #1
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    Icon13 Black Water in Pakistan

    http://www.defence.pk/forums/militar...black-eye.html

    Strange news american terrorist organization black water has just come in Pakistan showing them trainers. Govt. of Pakistan without any clear reason just let the notorious organization to be near our nuclear plant. I heard a Govt. official saying that they are here to train our army to use some modern equipment like night goggles .

    Although this news is still between news and rumors but if this is true i strongly condemn our coward civil and military leadership and i protest against presence of this terrorist organization in Pakistan whose record is very bad on civilian casualties.

    Any thoughts ?

    Give me reputation marks if you like this thread !
    Last edited by Pseudo-Intellectual; August 27, 2009 at 10:33 AM.

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    MathiasOfAthens's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Black Water in Pakistan

    Terrorism
    • Main Entry: ter·ror·ism
    • Pronunciation: \ˈter-ər-ˌi-zəm\
    • Function: noun
    • Date: 1795
    : the systematic use of terror especially as a means of coercion
    ter·ror·ist \-ər-ist\ adjective or noun
    ter·ror·is·tic \ˌter-ər-ˈis-tik\ adjective

    Common definitions of terrorism refer only to those acts which are intended to create fear (terror), are perpetrated for an ideological goal (as opposed to a lone attack), and deliberately target or disregard the safety of Non-Combatants.

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    Default Re: Black Water in Pakistan

    Quote Originally Posted by MathiasOfAthens View Post
    Terrorism
    • Main Entry: ter·ror·ism
    • Pronunciation: \ˈter-ər-ˌi-zəm\
    • Function: noun
    • Date: 1795
    : the systematic use of terror especially as a means of coercion
    ter·ror·ist \-ər-ist\ adjective or noun
    ter·ror·is·tic \ˌter-ər-ˈis-tik\ adjective

    Common definitions of terrorism refer only to those acts which are intended to create fear (terror), are perpetrated for an ideological goal (as opposed to a lone attack), and deliberately target or disregard the safety of Non-Combatants.
    Thanks for this contribution!

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    MathiasOfAthens's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Black Water in Pakistan

    Quote Originally Posted by Pseudo Intellectual View Post
    Thanks for this contribution!
    Black-Water, officially recognized as a Private organization, is training pakistans armed forces, not scaring the local people of Pakistan.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MathiasOfAthens View Post
    Terrorism
    • Main Entry: ter·ror·ism
    • Pronunciation: \ˈter-ər-ˌi-zəm\
    • Function: noun
    • Date: 1795
    : the systematic use of terror especially as a means of coercion
    ter·ror·ist \-ər-ist\ adjective or noun
    ter·ror·is·tic \ˌter-ər-ˈis-tik\ adjective

    Common definitions of terrorism refer only to those acts which are intended to create fear (terror), are perpetrated for an ideological goal (as opposed to a lone attack), and deliberately target or disregard the safety of Non-Combatants.

    yup thats blackwater right their.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikelus Trento View Post
    If they are helping to train Pakistan's military, it is with the sanction of the Pakistani government. If you don't like that idea, your energies would be better directed to your own government, versus incorrectly calling Blackwater a terrorist organization on a public forum. IMO.

    so if somlia hires the AQ to train them in the use of RPG-7's AQ stop being terrorists?
    Last edited by Pontifex Maximus; August 31, 2009 at 08:30 PM.

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    Lawrence of Arabia's Avatar Citizen
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    Default Re: Black Water in Pakistan

    Blackwater isn't a terrorist organization. They did have members who killed innocent Iraqis but that isn't really a policy of theirs. I figured, with you being Pakistani and all, that you'd know the difference between what is and is not a terrorist organization.
    Quote Originally Posted by Empi Rapper View Post
    Go on Farnan, go and help those despicable thugs you call our soldiers to kill some of the poorest people on the planet.
    Quote Originally Posted by Empi Rapper View Post
    Don't you realize that it is a good thing that so many British soldiers have already been killed as punishment for the invasion?


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    Default Re: Black Water in Pakistan

    Quote Originally Posted by Lawrence of Arabia View Post
    Blackwater isn't a terrorist organization. They did have members who killed innocent Iraqis but that isn't really a policy of theirs. I figured, with you being Pakistani and all, that you'd know the difference between what is and is not a terrorist organization.
    oh wow...hehehe....

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackwa...sader_Ideology

    It's wiki...but it has footnotes. Sure, they're just allegations, but damn do the whistle-blowers they have make it rather interesting.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lawrence of Arabia View Post
    Blackwater isn't a terrorist organization. They did have members who killed innocent Iraqis but that isn't really a policy of theirs. I figured, with you being Pakistani and all, that you'd know the difference between what is and is not a terrorist organization.
    exactly right taliban killing civilians = terrorist org

    Black water killing civilians = terrorist org

    what's the difference? religion? i read ur mind.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lawrence of Arabia View Post
    Blackwater isn't a terrorist organization. They did have members who killed innocent Iraqis but that isn't really a policy of theirs. I figured, with you being Pakistani and all, that you'd know the difference between what is and is not a terrorist organization.
    exactly right taliban killing civilians = terrorist org

    Black water killing civilians = terrorist org

    but the other part of the topic is their presence in pakistan lets talk on that aslo as that is hidden behind smoke

    Quote Originally Posted by lordoftheT View Post
    Have you considered the possibility that they really could be training some units to use night vision goggles?
    look this is insulting Pakistan army we are a modern army and at least night goggles are not modern equipment for us

    another useful and reliable link

    http://www.paktribune.com/news/index.php?id=218570

    America denies their presence but pakistan ex-intelligence people and media says yes .

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    Last edited by Thanatos; August 30, 2009 at 07:37 PM.

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    Default Re: Black Water in Pakistan

    Quote Originally Posted by Pseudo Intellectual View Post
    exactly right taliban killing civilians = terrorist org

    Black water killing civilians = terrorist org

    what's the difference? religion? i read ur mind.
    Considering I have no religious preference and have been accused of being an apologist for Islam, I think that's highly unlikely.

    I think it has more-so to do with the fact that Blackwater isn't a terrorist organization. Give me one definition of terrorism that they fit.

    They have committed criminal acts in the past, and it seems to me that the State Department has given them horribly light punishments (and sometimes none at all) but they aren't terrorists.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikelus Trento View Post
    Would you be so kind as to list the dates for the two military victories you claim Pakistan has had over India? And also, do you feel in a total war, to the end, only one victor left standing, Pakistan would emerge victorious over India?

    Thanks.
    2008 Mumbai attacks - 164 Victims to 9 Attackers

    (Don't take it seriously, my Pakistani friends. I know how hot-headed you can become)
    Last edited by Lawrence of Arabia; August 27, 2009 at 12:05 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Empi Rapper View Post
    Go on Farnan, go and help those despicable thugs you call our soldiers to kill some of the poorest people on the planet.
    Quote Originally Posted by Empi Rapper View Post
    Don't you realize that it is a good thing that so many British soldiers have already been killed as punishment for the invasion?


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    Default Re: Black Water in Pakistan

    Quote Originally Posted by Lawrence of Arabia View Post
    Considering I have no religious preference and have been accused of being an apologist for Islam, I think that's highly unlikely.

    I think it has more-so to do with the fact that Blackwater isn't a terrorist organization. Give me one definition of terrorism that they fit.

    They have committed criminal acts in the past, and it seems to me that the State Department has given them horribly light punishments (and sometimes none at all) but they aren't terrorists.



    2008 Mumbai attacks - 164 Victims to 9 Attackers

    (Don't take it seriously, my Pakistani friends. I know how hot-headed you can become)
    Man! you are nullifying yourself you said that they attacked civilians and were punished so lightly, your own statement shows two things 1: killing civilians is nothing but terrorism 2: U.s. Govt want to give them slight punishments because both are together in retardation of crusade. If you think that only that organization is terrorist which is declared so by u.S. or u.n. it's wrong. i gave you a simple formula to declare them terrorists which you quoted also.

    But why don't you come to the other half of topic their presence.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Black Water in Pakistan

    Quote Originally Posted by Pseudo Intellectual View Post
    If you think that only that organization is terrorist which is declared so by u.S. or u.n. it's wrong. i gave you a simple formula to declare them terrorists which you quoted also.
    If it were really that simple there'd be a lot less terrorists in the world.
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    Default Re: Black Water in Pakistan

    Quote Originally Posted by Pseudo Intellectual View Post
    exactly right taliban killing civilians = terrorist org

    Black water killing civilians = terrorist org

    but the other part of the topic is their presence in pakistan lets talk on that aslo as that is hidden behind smoke

    It's called modus operandi. Blackwater doesn't go around looking for civilians to kill. Yes, sometimes they do kill civilians but doing so is not their MO.

    For example, some individuals in the US Army/Marines etc have killed civilians, even on purpose, but doing so is not a goal of the US military and thus those who commit such acts are dealt with (usually). On the other hand, the Taliban and other terrorist organizations have goals to intentionally target civilians because their objective is control over the populace through terror.

    Blackwater does not have the same objective and as such isn't considered a terrorist organization.

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    Default Re: Black Water in Pakistan

    A valid and reliable intro of founder of black water

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erik_Prince

    and if hired "shooters" of black waters have been killling iraqis it is deifinitely a terrorist oraganization but question is their "presence in Pakistan".

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    Default Re: Black Water in Pakistan

    Quote Originally Posted by Pseudo Intellectual View Post
    http://www.defence.pk/forums/militar...black-eye.html

    Strange news american terrorist organization black water has just come in Pakistan showing them trainers. Govt. of Pakistan without any clear reason just let the notorious organization to be near our nuclear plant. I heard a Govt. official saying that they are here to train our army to use some modern equipment like night goggles .

    Although this news is still between news and rumors but if this is true i strongly condemn our coward civil and military leadership and i protest against presence of this terrorist organization in Pakistan whose record is very bad on civilian casualties.

    Any thoughts ?

    Give me reputation marks if you like this thread !
    Have you considered the possibility that they really could be training some units to use night vision goggles?

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    Default Re: Black Water in Pakistan

    Quote Originally Posted by Pseudo Intellectual View Post
    look this is insulting Pakistan army we are a modern army and at least night goggles are not modern equipment for us
    You have been constantly owned by the Indians. Now take that statement back.
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    Default Re: Black Water in Pakistan

    http://rebelreports.com/post/1758425...ater-and-other

    Some parts of Blackwater’s clandestine work for the CIA have begun to leak out from behind the iron curtain of secrecy. The company’s role in the secret assassination program and its continued involvement in the CIA drone attacks that occur regularly in Afghanistan and Pakistan have become front page material in the Washington Post and New York Times. There is much more to this story than has been reported publicly and details will continue to emerge, particularly about Blackwater’s aviation division(s).

    Now we learn (unsurprisingly) that Blackwater offered “foreign” operatives to work on the CIA assassination program. Blackwater told the CIA that it “could put people on the ground to provide the surveillance and support — all of the things you need to conduct an operation,” a former senior CIA official familiar with the secret program told The Associated Press. If that’s true, those foreign individuals would appear to have been privy to information that vice president Cheney and other US officials deemed not appropriate for Congressional ears, not to mention oversight.

    In light of all of these developments, it is important to remember how Erik Prince essentially hired George W Bush’s top people from the CIA’s Directorate of Operations to create his own private CIA, Total Intelligence Solutions. He also offered Alvin “Buzzy” Krongard, the former number 3 man at the CIA, a paid position on Blackwater’s board. Buzzy was the guy who got Blackwater its first known CIA contract back in 2002 in Afghanistan. Buzzy is also the one whining about the CIA’s “morale” problem, in light of the recent scandals, in the Washington Post. “Morale at the agency is down to minus 50,” he told the paper.

    When you hear reports that a “private” company was hired to do clandestine work, remember that this particular “private” company, Blackwater, is, in part, being run by Agency veterans, including several of the top people running the torture and assassination programs under Bush. At the end of the day, using Blackwater and/or other companies represents taking covert, lethal operations even further away from anything vaguely resembling oversight by the Congress. By using ex-Agency people instead of “current” Agency personnel, yet another barrier is thrown up and the case for “plausible deniability” becomes stronger. When you are dealing with a billionaire like Erik Prince who apparently viewed himself as a crusader tasked with eliminating muslims and Islam globally, as has been alleged by a former Blackwater official, it is not difficult to imagine how all of this could remain—at least in part— off the books. Would it be a great shock if we learn that Prince volunteered some of his men or his company’s time to lethal missions for the CIA free of charge? “I’m not a financially driven guy,” Prince told Congress in October 2007. Take that with a grain of salt, but it is probably not flat out false. He was a believer in the crusade.

    That is why it is essential that Congress dig deep into all aspects of the CIA assassination program and Blackwater’s total involvement. But it is important to remember that it is so much bigger than this one company and certainly bigger than one clandestine program.

    Also, it is very important to remember this: Blackwater is hardly alone. Salon’s Tim Shorrock obtained documents in 2007 from the office of the Directorate of National Intelligence (DNI) showing that Washington spends some $42 billion annually on private intelligence contractors, up from $17.5 billion in 2000. That means 70 percent of the US intelligence budget is going to private companies.
    “This is the magnet now. Everything is being attracted to these private companies in terms of individuals and expertise and functions that were normally done by the intelligence community,” former CIA division chief and senior analyst Melvin Goodman told me a year ago. “My major concern is the lack of accountability, the lack of responsibility. The entire industry is essentially out of control. It’s outrageous.”

    Attorney General Eric Holder should appoint a special prosecutor just to examine the role that Blackwater and other “private contractors” have played—from the jump—in the torture program, the extraordinary rendition program and the assassination program to name a few. And it should not be just about the operatives in the field. Who hired Erik Prince’s men? Who authorized these contracts? Who “managed” their operations in the field? What exactly did they do? At Guantanamo, there were contractors involved with torture. Same at Abu Ghraib. Same at Bagram. This all needs to be dismantled and investigated.

    Blackwater’s Private Spies: A Bush-era CIA Who’s Who

    As for Blackwater’s role, I wrote about Prince’s private CIA last summer for The Nation in a piece called “Blackwater’s Private Spies,” but thought it would be relevant to repost some of what I laid out then because it is extremely relevant to what is happening right now. [One note: Robert Richer recently left Prince’s employ…]. Excerpt:

    Total Intelligence, which opened for business in February 2007, is a fusion of three entities bought up by Prince: the Terrorism Research Center, Technical Defense and The Black Group—Blackwater vice chair Cofer Black’s consulting agency. The company’s leadership reads like a Who’s Who of the CIA’s “war on terror” operations after 9/11. In addition to the twenty-eight-year CIA veteran Black, who is chair of Total Intelligence, the company’s executives include CEO Robert Richer, the former associate deputy director of the agency’s Directorate of Operations and the second-ranking official in charge of clandestine operations. From 1999 to 2004, Richer was head of the CIA’s Near East and South Asia Division, where he ran clandestine operations throughout the Middle East and South Asia. As part of his duties, he was the CIA liaison with Jordan’s King Abdullah, a key US ally and Blackwater client, and briefed George W. Bush on the burgeoning Iraqi resistance in its early stages.

    Total Intelligence’s chief operating officer is Enrique “Ric” Prado, a twenty-four-year CIA veteran and former senior executive officer in the Directorate of Operations. He spent more than a decade working in the CIA’s Counterterrorist Center and ten years with the CIA’s “paramilitary” Special Operations Group. Prado and Black worked closely at the CIA. Prado also served in Latin America with Jose Rodriguez, who gained infamy late last year after it was revealed that as director of the National Clandestine Service at the CIA he was allegedly responsible for destroying videotapes of interrogations of prisoners, during which “enhanced interrogation techniques,” including waterboarding, were reportedly used. Richer told the New York Times he recalled many conversations with Rodriguez, about the tapes. “He would always say, ‘I’m not going to let my people get nailed for something they were ordered to do,’” Richer said of his former boss. Before the scandal, there were reports that Blackwater had been “aggressively recruiting” Rodriguez. He has since retired from the CIA.

    The leadership of Total Intelligence also includes Craig Johnson, a twenty-seven-year CIA officer who specialized in Central and South America, and Caleb “Cal” Temple, who joined the company straight out of the Defense Intelligence Agency, where he served from 2004 to ‘06 as chief of the Office of Intelligence Operations in the Joint Intelligence Task Force—Combating Terrorism. According to his Total Intelligence bio, Temple directed the “DIA’s 24/7 analytic terrorism target development and other counterterrorism intelligence activities in support of military operations worldwide. He also oversaw 24/7 global counterterrorism indications and warning analysis for the U.S. Defense Department.” The company also boasts officials drawn from the Drug Enforcement Agency and the FBI.

    Total Intelligence is run out of an office on the ninth floor of a building in the Ballston area of Arlington, Virginia. Its “Global Fusion Center,” complete with large-screen TVs broadcasting international news channels and computer stations staffed by analysts surfing the web, “operates around the clock every day of the year” and is modeled after the CIA’s counterterrorist center, once run by Black. The firm employs at least sixty-five full-time staff—some estimates say it’s closer to 100. “Total Intel brings the…skills traditionally honed by CIA operatives directly to the board room,” Black said when the company launched. “With a service like this, CEOs and their security personnel will be able to respond to threats quickly and confidently—whether it’s determining which city is safest to open a new plant in or working to keep employees out of harm’s way after a terrorist attack.”

    Black insists, “This is a completely legal enterprise. We break no laws. We don’t go anywhere near breaking laws. We don’t have to.” But what services Total Intelligence is providing, and to whom, is shrouded in secrecy. It is clear, though, that the company is leveraging the reputations and inside connections of its executives. “Cofer can open doors,” Richer told the Washington Post in 2007. “I can open doors. We can generally get in to see who we need to see. We don’t help pay bribes. We do everything within the law, but we can deal with the right minister or person.” Black told the paper he and Richer spend a lot of their time traveling. “I am discreet in where I go and who I see. I spend most of my time dealing with senior people in governments, making connections.” But it is clear that the existing connections from the former spooks’ time at the agency have brought business to Total Intelligence.

    Take the case of Jordan. For years, Richer worked closely with King Abdullah, as his CIA liaison. As journalist Ken Silverstein reported, “The CIA has lavishly subsidized Jordan’s intelligence service, and has sent millions of dollars in recent years for intelligence training. After Richer retired, sources say, he helped Blackwater land a lucrative deal with the Jordanian government to provide the same sort of training offered by the CIA. Millions of dollars that the CIA ‘invested’ in Jordan walked out the door with Richer—if this were a movie, it would be a cross between Jerry Maguire and Syriana. ‘People [at the agency] are pissed off,’ said one source. ‘Abdullah still speaks with Richer regularly, and he thinks that’s the same thing as talking to us. He thinks Richer is still the man.’ Except in this case it’s Richer, not his client, yelling ‘show me the money.’”

    In a 2007 interview on the cable business network CNBC, Black was brought on as an analyst to discuss “investing in Jordan.” At no point in the interview was Black identified as working for the Jordanian government. Total Intelligence was described as “a corporate consulting firm that includes investment strategy,” while “Ambassador Black” was introduced as “a twenty-eight-year veteran of the CIA,” the “top counterterror guy” and “a key planner for the breathtakingly rapid victory of American forces that toppled the Taliban in Afghanistan.” Black heaped lavish praise on Jordan and its monarchy. “You have leadership, King Abdullah, His Majesty King Abdullah, who is certainly kind towards investors, very protective,” Black said. “Jordan is, in our view, a very good investment. There are some exceptional values there.” He said Jordan is in a region where there are “numerous commodities that are being produced and doing well.”

    With no hint of the brutality behind the exodus, Black argued that the flood of Iraqi refugees fleeing the violence of the US occupation was good for potential investors in Jordan. “We get something like 600, 700,000 Iraqis that have moved from Iraq into Jordan that require cement, furniture, housing and the like. So it is a—it is an island of growth and potential, certainly in that immediate area. So it looks good,” he said. “There are opportunities for investment. It is not all bad. Sometimes Americans need to watch a little less TV…. But there is—there is opportunity in everything. That’s why you need situation awareness, and that’s one of the things that our company does. It provides the kinds of intelligence and insight to provide situational awareness so you can make the best investments.”

    Black and other Total Intelligence executives have turned their CIA careers, reputations, contacts and connections into business opportunities. What they once did for the US government, they now do for private interests. It is not difficult to imagine clients feeling as though they are essentially hiring the US government to serve their own interests. In 2007 Richer told the Post that now that he is in the private sector, foreign military officials and others are more willing to give him information than they were when he was with the CIA. Richer recalled a conversation with a foreign general during which he was surprised at the potentially “classified” information the general revealed. When Richer asked why the general was giving him the information, he said the general responded, “If I tell it to an embassy official I’ve created espionage. You’re a business partner.”


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    Default Re: Black Water in Pakistan

    Quote Originally Posted by Pseudo Intellectual View Post
    look this is insulting Pakistan army we are a modern army and at least night goggles are not modern equipment for us
    I imagine that night vision goggles are a bit more complex than you seem to think.

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    Default Re: Black Water in Pakistan

    “views himself as a Christian crusader tasked with eliminating Muslims and the Islamic faith from the globe..."

    Well he got a long way to go, 1,5 billion people and multiply faster then he can shoot. Is this a pure joke?
    Thorolf was thus armed. Then Thorolf became so furious that he cast his shield on his back, and, grasping his halberd with both hands, bounded forward dealing cut and thrust on either side. Men sprang away from him both ways, but he slew many. Thus he cleared the way forward to earl Hring's standard, and then nothing could stop him. He slew the man who bore the earl's standard, and cut down the standard-pole. After that he lunged with his halberd at the earl's breast, driving it right through mail and body, so that it came out at the shoulders; and he lifted him up on the halberd over his head, and planted the butt-end in the ground. There on the weapon the earl breathed out his life in sight of all, both friends and foes. [...] 53, Egil's Saga
    I must tell you here of some amusing tricks the Comte d'Eu played on us. I had made a sort of house for myself in which my knights and I used to eat, sitting so as to get the light from the door, which, as it happened, faced the Comte d'Eu's quarters. The count, who was a very ingenious fellow, had rigged up a miniature ballistic machine with which he could throw stones into my tent. He would watch us as we were having our meal, adjust his machine to suit the length of our table, and then let fly at us, breaking our pots and glasses.
    - The pranks played on the knight Jean de Joinville, 1249, 7th crusade.













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    Default Re: Black Water in Pakistan

    Quote Originally Posted by Pseudo Intellectual View Post
    http://www.defence.pk/forums/militar...black-eye.html

    Strange news american terrorist organization black water has just come in Pakistan showing them trainers. Govt. of Pakistan without any clear reason just let the notorious organization to be near our nuclear plant. I heard a Govt. official saying that they are here to train our army to use some modern equipment like night goggles .

    Although this news is still between news and rumors but if this is true i strongly condemn our coward civil and military leadership and i protest against presence of this terrorist organization in Pakistan whose record is very bad on civilian casualties.

    Any thoughts ?

    Give me reputation marks if you like this thread !
    If they are helping to train Pakistan's military, it is with the sanction of the Pakistani government. If you don't like that idea, your energies would be better directed to your own government, versus incorrectly calling Blackwater a terrorist organization on a public forum. IMO.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikelus Trento View Post
    If they are helping to train Pakistan's military, it is with the sanction of the Pakistani government. If you don't like that idea, your energies would be better directed to your own government, versus incorrectly calling Blackwater a terrorist organization on a public forum. IMO.
    yeah they would help us as they helped in iraq for what they are now being sued and they had to change the name also. and yes they are a terrorist organization with such an ideology to vanish muslims and with killing people. Killing innocent civilians is terrorism it's a clearcut rule. and read my first post again i protested against my govt not america because protest effects humans.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikelus Trento View Post
    If they are helping to train Pakistan's military, it is with the sanction of the Pakistani government. If you don't like that idea, your energies would be better directed to your own government, versus incorrectly calling Blackwater a terrorist organization on a public forum. IMO.
    another link about their activities and Govt. awareness of their presence

    http://truth4justice.wordpress.com/2...l-in-pakistan/

    Double posts merged. Please edit your own posts instead of making new posts. - Thanatos
    Last edited by Thanatos; August 30, 2009 at 07:37 PM.

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