On Free Will

[finsternis]

Lately, I was remembering the Stoics from my humanities class. Their teachings said that "we have no control over much of what happens to us. We can only control how we react to them".

But lately I've been thinking, do we have control over anything at all? Meaning, do we have free will?

The Stoics' teachings already take care of things that happen to us without concern (which is a lot) but what about when we do things that we want? Don't we have control of that?
You could say that, but there is one problem: do we chose what we want?

What I'm trying to say is, did I chose to want to become a physicists? Or to want to eat that burger? Or to want to take the bus instead of my bike?

What is the source of our wants?

Our wants appear to simply be put on us by something (can be god, nature, chance, destiny, who knows) without any concern from us. However even if we have concern over them then you would have to ask what made us choose some wants instead of others (did we want to want those wants?).

So it appear that we have no control of the outside (physical world), but we also have no control of the inside (our mind). Thus, we have no free will at all.

What you guys think?


EDIT: I noticed I didn't talk about being able to say no to your wants, so I'll say it here.

Saying no to your wants is a want in itself. When you say no to a want is simply because you want something else. Like saying no to your want to eat a burger because you want to be healthier. Or saying no to having an afraid because you want to go to heaven or because you love your wife.

Thus, saying no to a want is a want in itself and thus it applies to the OP.

[Ummon]

You can say no to your wants.

[finsternis]

Yes, I was thinking that. That means that the way to have free will is to be unhappy.

But then I thought, isn't to say no to your wants a want itself? If you want something, and then you say "no"to it, you are saying no because you want to say no. It could be because there is another benefit to saying no (like you wanting to exercise your free will, or you wanting to lose weight).

So, no. Saying no to your wants is a want of itself.

[Ummon]

Yes. The more free you want to be, the more you need to learn to transcend your animal nature. More or less.

Human beings are created needy. The only way to become different from that, is to learn to master one's emptiness. Luckily, then habit subsides and helps.

[Claudius Gothicus]

We are slaves of our desires, even if we restrain them we end up thinking more and more about them, the "wants" logic is also real.
We do have a certain degree of freedom and I can easily see it in this thread itself, being aware of our own wants gives us freedom, reasoning the reason is our freedom, our freewill.

[Ummon]

It is not matter of restraining: it is matter of learning to assume a proactive stance, which implies paradoxically, passivity and not reactivity. Trusting, having faith, waiting, cultivating silence, attention, concetration, love, respect, modesty. Overly difficult.

Yet the question was not if it is easy.

[Jeff.Spectre]

if free will truly exists then we need not worry about not having it and not being in control of our own selves.
if on the other hand we do not posses free will, then everything we do therefore has been predetermined, and if all things have been predetermined then there is no point in worrying about free will because it is an impossible thing.
meaning that regardless of the outcome of the discussion we have no need to be concerned with the issue of free will as it affects us neither adversely or favourably.
such a concern is static, and nothing that is static can survive. to trouble ourselves with such an impossible debate is both redundant and time consuming.

(and yes i'm aware of the irony that i have spent time thinking about free will and the fact that i have come to this conclusion)

[finsternis]

Yes. The more free you want to be, the more you need to learn to transcend your animal nature. More or less.

Human beings are created needy. The only way to become different from that, is to learn to master one's emptiness. Luckily, then habit subsides and helps.

So you mean, to have a free will, we need to do things without thinking them. Like the other animals?

That's quite ironic!

We are slaves of our desires, even if we restrain them we end up thinking more and more about them, the "wants" logic is also real.
We do have a certain degree of freedom and I can easily see it in this thread itself, being aware of our own wants gives us freedom, reasoning the reason is our freedom, our freewill.

I don't see how being aware of the fact that we have no free will is free will.

This thread is more like "we are all puppets, some puppets however can see the strings" (Watchmen reference). But that doesn't mean that the ones that see the strings have control over them; their heads were simply pulled up by the strings and thus they managed to see them.

if free will truly exists then we need not worry about not having it and not being in control of our own selves.
if on the other hand we do not posses free will, then everything we do therefore has been predetermined, and if all things have been predetermined then there is no point in worrying about free will because it is an impossible thing.
meaning that regardless of the outcome of the discussion we have no need to be concerned with the issue of free will as it affects us neither adversely or favourably.
such a concern is static, and nothing that is static can survive. to trouble ourselves with such an impossible debate is both redundant and time consuming.

(and yes i'm aware of the irony that i have spent time thinking about free will and the fact that i have come to this conclusion)

That's the nice thing about practicality: in the end, it doesn't matter.


@ctrlaltde & basics:

...ok? Thanks for sharing that.

I think we have a tiny bit of choice when we choose to excercise it. The thing is that we often don't have a choice about whether or not we will choose, so very little of what we do is actually chosen consciously.

Neurologists play with this stuff and apparently most of the time when we think we are choosing, our bodies have already geared up to act on the option we think we 'choose'.

Well that little choice is what the OP is about. When we do things because we want (meaning, we do it consciously) it is decided based on what we want. But as I said in the OP, we have no choice over what our wants are. They are just put there without our concern. Thus, we have no choice over unconscious action, over outside actions and over conscious actions. Thus, we have no free will.

[Taiji]

Well that little choice is what the OP is about. When we do things because we want (meaning, we do it consciously) it is decided based on what we want. But as I said in the OP, we have no choice over what our wants are. They are just put there without our concern. Thus, we have no choice over unconscious action, over outside actions and over conscious actions. Thus, we have no free will.

So you are only that part of you which is conscious? Of this you're consciously certain? Sounds like you've made a bit of a mess to me...

[Claudius Gothicus]

I don't see how being aware of the fact that we have no free will is free will.

Well I do, because the difference lies in our logical thinking regarding our choices, let's say I want a million dollars but I know that won't be able to get it from the lottery so my choices are robbing a back(hedonist approach, needs to satisfy all my wishes), working a my ass off but still failing due to the impracticality of my want or just conforming myself with reality I'm not going to be as millionaire.

My original want was getting 1 million dollars however I am aware of how difficult it is to get the money so I restrain my 'want' and replace it with a simpler one, and so on, we cannot end our wishes but we can replace them.

[Ummon]

So you mean, to have a free will, we need to do things without thinking them. Like the other animals?

That's quite ironic!

Actually, no. To me, we need to think as if we didn't think. That's even more ironic.

[finsternis]

This would depend on the circumstances. If I am to die in 3 days because in 3 days time I have planned to commit suicide, I think I can veto my earlier decision.

If you were thinking of a doctor's fortune-telling abilities, it might be worth pointing out that under most circumstances, they don't really have any. The doctor would have to be planning to kill you on day 3 to be as certain as possible.

Frankly I find it hard to integrate that people have ever argued "freewill or determinism?" without a specific context which includes time. Since it's so obviously both that to me it seems akin to arguing "left or right?".

Well I'm talking about our wants, the source of everything we do. it dies matter the circumstances, what matters is how we react to them, and since we react to them based on our wants, then we have no free will.

I think that you are thinking of "destiny", meaning that the future it determined. That is not what I mean (I do think its determined, but that's not what I mean in this Thread). In this thread it doesn't matter whether destiny exist or not: if it does, then we have no free will (no debate there) and if it doesn't we still don't have free will because of how we respond to things that happen (based on our wants).

Actually, no. To me, we need to think as if we didn't think. That's even more ironic.

unn, having a hard time understanding what you mean. Do you mean trick ourselves?
If so, how does that gives us free will?

Also, isn't habit the biggest anti-freewill component?

Unless, by giving away to habit (and thus not thinking or tricking ourselves as you said) we leave our bodies and let it do what it does (its habits and other natural actions). But since we are no longer "part" of it, then whatever the body does is not what is happening to us.

But that doesn't give us free will, it dimply takes away the pain of knowing that there is no free will. Its kind of like committing mental suicide.

...if that is what you meant.

[CtrlAltDe1337]

I don't agree with the Stoic view of free will. People do have free will in that sense. However, I think man is fallen, and thus can do no good without God. Thus he doesn't have free will in that sense. Plus, God is in ultimate control of everything, but not as to destroy a person's will, but to carry out his will through it. In short, I subscribe to a Reformed (called Calvinist or Augustinian) view.

[My Favorite Martian]

... post deleted by user because containing common places ...

Mod, please delete - thanks.

[basics]

finstemis,

I can only repeat what God says on the subject. Man has a will, there is no doubt about that, but never in all Scripture does He say that this is free. How can it be? When the curse was delivered it deemed all men to die. Why? Because Adam and Eve were persuaded that God didn't mean what He said. They were persuaded not to believe Him.

Now this is the whole principle regarding the coming of Jesus Christ to this planet that through Him men might be able to believe but only if the curse is removed. This means that the old nature must be replaced by another. It is called being born again and is never done by men for it is God who justifies. In other words the recipient must be aware that something special is happening to him or her, yet not of their making.

Free-will is mentioned in all Scripture seventeen times, sixteen about offerings and once about permission to make offerings and in each case delivered to the Hebrews them being a separated people by God. Never does it apply to the nations, nor does it apply to the Hebrews as a generalisation. Separated they were but sinners nonetheless, only covered by the daily routine of sacrifices.

Paul writes that none is good, all fall short of the glory of God. This is seen by man being made on the sixth day yet God's rest is on the seventh. That's the measure of what keeps us from God. To enter His rest we must be born again. The day that separates us is in type the day that Adam and Eve were persuaded otherwise. To God that was unacceptable and why the curse was placed on us. There is no such thing as freedom of will for until God changes our predicament we remain under the curse.

[Taiji]

I think we have a tiny bit of choice when we choose to excercise it. The thing is that we often don't have a choice about whether or not we will choose, so very little of what we do is actually chosen consciously.

Neurologists play with this stuff and apparently most of the time when we think we are choosing, our bodies have already geared up to act on the option we think we 'choose'.

[Playfishpaste]

We all have free will. If we didn't, we wouldn't have any choices.

If you want to have a want that is influenced by absolutely nothing you are either an idiot or are just really thinking too hard.

[finsternis]

So you are only that part of you which is conscious? Of this you're consciously certain? Sounds like you've made a bit of a mess to me...

More like we are what we are made. Like the puppet analogy from the Watchmen: we are all puppets, its just that I can see the strings. That doesn't mean that I have control over the strings, I can just see them.

Kind of like being told that you only have 3 days to live; you might know that it is 3 days but that doesn't mean you can change it.

Well I do, because the difference lies in our logical thinking regarding our choices, let's say I want a million dollars but I know that won't be able to get it from the lottery so my choices are robbing a back(hedonist approach, needs to satisfy all my wishes), working a my ass off but still failing due to the impracticality of my want or just conforming myself with reality I'm not going to be as millionaire.

My original want was getting 1 million dollars however I am aware of how difficult it is to get the money so I restrain my 'want' and replace it with a simpler one, and so on, we cannot end our wishes but we can replace them.

So kind of like saying no to your wants? Ummon said something like that, but I responded by saying that saying no to a want is a want in itself. When you say No to something is because you want something else more. In you case what you wanted more was to be realistic: you can't get the million dollars so you decrease your demand. And since it was a want then the OP applies to it.

We all have free will. If we didn't, we wouldn't have any choices.

Yeah, that's what I'm saying in the OP: choices are not really choices since they are determined by our wants.

[Taiji]

More like we are what we are made. Like the puppet analogy from the Watchmen: we are all puppets, its just that I can see the strings. That doesn't mean that I have control over the strings, I can just see them.

Kind of like being told that you only have 3 days to live; you might know that it is 3 days but that doesn't mean you can change it.

This would depend on the circumstances. If I am to die in 3 days because in 3 days time I have planned to commit suicide, I think I can veto my earlier decision.

If you were thinking of a doctor's fortune-telling abilities, it might be worth pointing out that under most circumstances, they don't really have any. The doctor would have to be planning to kill you on day 3 to be as certain as possible.

Frankly I find it hard to integrate that people have ever argued "freewill or determinism?" without a specific context which includes time. Since it's so obviously both that to me it seems akin to arguing "left or right?".

[basics]

" We all have free will. If we didn't, we wouldn't have any choices."

Playfishpaste,

I think you miss the point in that what you do in life is governed by what you are allowed to do and in the doing of it that to you is free-will, but it is not in the overall sense of the word. For example I use the root of where the word is supposed to come from yet doesn't. Try choosing God in His sense, that of the need to be born again and see if your freedom allows you to not just for now but forever as long as you live.

Oh you may make that choice now but how long will it last? For a start you won't get past the Law, and sin will always find excuses for you not to deliver what you think are your own intentions. Now these things may not worry you if you are not seeking God, nonetheless it is written that that is why you cannot find Him. Sin does not give you the desire to seek Him if only because being in sin you are locked into it and don't have the freedom to free yourself.

This is the express reason that God never says that man has free-will. Man will say it of course because man thinks he is free but that is the illusion, the deception, that the power opposed to God wants you to feel, not what is the reality. When Jesus said that He came to set men free it was from this that He meant. He knew then that man didn't have any freedom because of that which governs their lives. That is why He said that to be free a man must be born again.

The book to the Romans is specifically about the will of man as against the will of God. Paul leaves no doubt as to what man is under sin and he gives a picture of what man can be once the Son is revealed to him. The picture being that all being under the curse, fall short of the glory of God. Of course it must be said that in those conditions who the heck cares about the glory of God? And, that comes from the condition that man is bound in and therefore not free.