The Real CIA News

[mrmouth]

With all the coverage and outrage of abuse of prisoners at the hands of the coalition, intelligence agencies, and the so called black or secret prisons...would anyone here be surprised to learn the actual program was very effective, saving lives...?

Newly declassified papers outline a program that was "thoughtfully developed, carefully circumscribed, briefed to Congress, and yielded information crucial to disrupting al Qaeda".



Wall street Journal
AUGUST 26, 2009, 7:15 P.M. ET

Whoever advised people to be skeptical of what they read in the papers must have had in mind this week's coverage of the documents about CIA interrogations. Now that we've had a chance to read the reports, it's clear the real story isn't the few cases of abuse played up by the media. The news is that the program was thoughtfully developed, carefully circumscribed, briefed to Congress, and yielded information crucial to disrupting al Qaeda.

In other words, it worked—at least until politics got in the way.

The most revealing portion of the IG report documents the program's results. The CIA's "detention and interrogation of terrorists has provided intelligence that has enabled the identification and apprehension of other terrorists and warned of terrorist plots planned for the United States and around the world."

Which includes, the arrest of previously unknown members of an al Qaeda cell in Karachi, Pakistan, designated to pilot an aircraft attack in the U.S. The information also made the CIA aware of plots to attack the U.S. consulate in Karachi, hijack aircraft to fly into Heathrow, loosen track spikes to derail a U.S. train, blow up U.S. gas stations, fly an airplane into a California building, and cut the lines of suspension bridges in New York.

While the report doesn't take a position on the value of enhanced techniques, the facts speak loudly that they caused detainees to yield important information. The report notes that early on Zubaydah provided some information, but that the waterboard resulted in "increased production." It also notes that since the use of the waterboard, "Zubaydah has appeared to be cooperative."

Which brings us to another salient part of the IG report: CIA officials well understood that they might be second-guessed years later by politicians. "During the course of this review, a number of Agency officers expressed unsolicited concern about the possibility of recrimination or legal action resulting from their participation. . . . officers expressed concern that a human rights group might pursue them for activities . . . they feared that the Agency would not stand behind them." Another said, "Ten years from now we're going to be sorry we're doing this . . . [but] it has to be done."

The outrage here isn't that government officials used sometimes rough interrogation methods to break our enemies. The outrage is that, years later, when the political winds have shifted and there hasn't been another attack, our politicians would punish the men and women who did their best to protect Americans in a time of peril.


article here

[Amry]

So just to clarify,

It's all right to imprison and detain hundreds of people without trial, torture them with the hope that golly gee, at least a few of them might be terrorist, then claim it's a success because it foiled a bunch of plots in which no further detail or official source is given?

Well then, I wish the Iranians all the luck in getting all the information from the three American tourists who are obviously terrorists.

[cfmonkey45]

So just to clarify,

It's all right to imprison and detain hundreds of people without trial, torture them with the hope that golly gee, at least a few of them might be terrorist, then claim it's a success because it foiled a bunch of plots in which no further detail or official source is given?

Well then, I wish the Iranians all the luck in getting all the information from the three American tourists who are obviously terrorists.

Technically the US has only tortured 3 people, multiple times. The other prisons are here:

Ah, clearly the US are monsters. We're torturing them with free health care.

[Amry]

Technically the US has only tortured 3 people, multiple times.

Yes and technically a girl can have anal sex and still claim "virgin" status.

The other prisons are here:
Ah, clearly the US are monsters. We're torturing them with free health care.

I'm at work, behind corporate proxy which blocks streaming vids. Someone would need to tell me what's going on in that video.

past decade or so, but thats All a lie Hollywood makes up. Super spy stuff, NONE OF THAT HAPPENS.

Members of the Church Committee would like to have a word with you.

But everyone mentions the CIA. why not bring up other "Intellegence" agencies eh? Like the KGB's reincarnation Federal Security Service of the Russian Federation (FSB)

Because the United States is supposed to be one of the GOOD guys. That's why it's so distressing to see them commit immoral acts.

[Central Asian Qaghan]

I agree. If Iran has captured these "Terrorists" then it has whatever right to conduct whatever torture the CIA has done to gather information to protect Iranian lives. After all who cares about one dead American Terrorist when it could save a 1,000 innocent Iranian lives right?

[elusivecorn]

I agree. If Iran has captured these "Terrorists" then it has whatever right to conduct whatever torture the CIA has done to gather information to protect Iranian lives. After all who cares about one dead American Terrorist when it could save a 1,000 innocent Iranian lives right?

Here is where your anology fails,

The CIA doesn't derail trains, sabotage bridges, crash planes into buildings, target massive civilian populations with suicide bombers, or plot to kill consulates. They do not try to terrorize civilian populations of any nation.

Terrorist, the very word means a person that terrorizes or frightens others.
They want to kill people, a lot of people, in fact... many of them want to kill everyone that doesn't agree with their religious and political ideologue.

Yes, the CIA detains people, a few of them turned out to be innocent.

A couple of people they were KNEW where involved in terrorist plots were water boarded.

(Its a farcry from kidnapping and publicly beheading people)

And don't even try to justify anything Iran does, they have political prisoners, they rape women so they can be executed, they arrest people for peacefully protesting, threaten regional stability, and chant "DEATH TO AMERICA".

[Phier]

But...but...but...torture never works!

[Amry]

But...but...but...torture never works!

Well, as the article said, it foiled a bunch of plots such as hijackings in Karachi, yada yada yada.

Mind you, no details are given, but I'm sure all this fantastic foiled plots are true. I mean, when is the last time the US government lied to you?

[Nouvelle Vague]

So where's Bin Laden?

[Broken Lance]

So where's Bin Laden?

probably dead already

[touchmaster]

probably dead already

Yeah I'm thinking that too.

Someone just took his place as leader and used the rumor that he was still alive to their advantage.

[Nouvelle Vague]

probably dead already

probably? Whats funny is that after all this useful intel, they still don't know anything.

[Ó Cathasaigh]

I can't even say with Certainty where Obama is.

Probably the Bahamas, but maybe D.C.

[Exarch]

yes, whoopdee doo
the second the USG sanctions torture, it loses its right to judge and criticize other countries
it loses its MORAL STANDING,

[Gauvin]

Torture works, actually, don't let anyone tell you differently. It's because it works so well that it should not be used. Under torture, people will give up their own family.

I know the argument about tortured confessions, but that's different. If you torture someone for information, especially if they let on that they have information and are being uncooperative, then torture is the most effecient way of extracting that information.

On the issue of waterboarding, if it is torture, it is the mildest form of torture there is, and the risk of any long-term physicial or mental damage was not present. Even after these waterboardings, Khalid Sheik Mohammed still says the charges against him are "badges of honor", he doesn't seem to be very fearful, which suggests he hasn't been broken down mentally or emotionally. "Enhanced interrogation" as cynically as it's seen as a code word for "torture" is actually a good way to define interrogation techniques which do not cause any severe pain, or long-term damage which are the most common characteristics of torture.

When I read the "torture" memos, after reading the medias reporting on them, I got a very different impression. "Walling" was described by the media as throwing someone up against a wall, and yet the "orture" memo gives clear instructions on how to do this... first of all, a towel or something soft needs to be placed behind the persons neck to support it and protect it from whiplash, and secondly only his back can hit the wall and not his head, thirdly, the wall must not be rigid, but must be contructed specifically to rebound to limit the risk of injury and to cause a loud noise, as the sound was what was supposed to be shocking. Overall, from the media I assumed the worst, but when I actually read the memos, the description of how it was done, it sounded more like a hollywood or wrestling stunt.

[Amry]

Strange, you seem to be preoccupied with the whole "Islam is evil" idea. Yet torture is evil, and yet you have no qualms about it.

Torture works, actually, don't let anyone tell you differently. It's because it works so well that it should not be used. Under torture, people will give up their own family.

I know the argument about tortured confessions, but that's different. If you torture someone for information, especially if they let on that they have information and are being uncooperative

Let's consider two scenarios:

The prisoners have the information: what's wrong with the non-torture methods, as used by the Allies against Nazi officers in WW2? Build a rapport, use trickery, that sort of thing. If they hate you that much that they will not respond to this, don't you think that they will remember this hatred when being tortured and just mislead the interrogators?

And if we know he has the information and is therefore the right guy, surely we can use the miracles of modern technology to gather all the information? His house, car, call and Internet browsing records - it can all yield precious clues if we know he's the "right" person. Are you telling me that all terrorists memorize intricate plans for terror attacks?

The prisoners have no information: what now, Einstein? Torture someone who knows squat? Congratulations, you're morally-bankrupt.

and the risk of any long-term physicial or mental damage was not present. Even after these waterboardings,

Do you consent being waterboarded, if it is to test your hypothesis?

Let's try to do it 168 times. If there is no "long-term physicial or mental damage", then I will agree with your theory.

[Gauvin]

Strange, you seem to be preoccupied with the whole "Islam is evil" idea. Yet torture is evil, and yet you have no qualms about it.

What does this have to do with anything? If you want to talk about cruel punishments in Islam (amputation, crucifixion), or the treatment of prisoners of war then we can open a different thread.

Let's consider two scenarios:

The prisoners have the information: what's wrong with the non-torture methods, as used by the Allies against Nazi officers in WW2? Build a rapport, use trickery, that sort of thing. If they hate you that much that they will not respond to this, don't you think that they will remember this hatred when being tortured and just mislead the interrogators?

Well, non-torture methods were used, as this article even mentioned, but more information was gathered after waterboarding. It is proven now that waterboarding lead to credible and useful information. There are more relevant moral and ethical issues against waterboarding which I find much more persuasive.

Also, a uniformed officer has protection under the Geneva convention. The point of the Geneva convention was to offer an incentive to wearing uniforms and distinguishing yourselves as soldiers to limit civilian casualties. What is then implied is that if you do not comply, you are not afforded the priviledges and protections outlined in the Geneva convention.

Nazis had a terrifying agenda but they used uniformed armies, and their officers were more distinguishable than even american officers which afforded them certain rights they would not haev received otherwise.

His house, car, call and Internet browsing records - it can all yield precious clues if we know he's the "right" person.

Well, that fact that you know where to look suggests that those would be the least likely places to hide secret plans from intelligence agents, lol.

Are you telling me that all terrorists memorize intricate plans for terror attacks?

No, but some certainly do. You know the sayings about keeping a secret, the more people know, the more risk that it becomes exposed.

The prisoners have no information: what now, Einstein? Torture someone who knows squat? Congratulations, you're morally-bankrupt.

I thought I addressed this, it only works on prisoners who let on that they have information, who admit to having information but refuse to cooperate, that's why waterboarding was used on Khalid Sheik Muhammad, and a few others, and not everyone, he admitted his role in 9\11, and that he was a senior Al-Qaeda operative. There's no doubt he had information.

Do you consent being waterboarded, if it is to test your hypothesis?

Sure, why not? Journalists, soldiers, radio jockeys, and others have tried it. They mostly agree it's unbearable after a while, but they sometimes try it 2-3 times to beat their record, lol. Something tells me they won't take power drills to their head, or allow electrcity to be run through their testicles though, because, let's face it, if it were really torture, you wouldn't even try it once.

Let's try to do it 168 times. If there is no "long-term physicial or mental damage", then I will agree with your theory.

Well, why on me? It was done on Khalid Sheik Mohammed, use his current state for your conclusion. Btw, physicians had evaluated those who were to be waterboarded, and were present at the time.

But asking if I would want to be waterboarded 168 times, is ridiculous, I also don't want to be jailed. It's not designed to be pleasant, that's one reason out of many that I didn't plot the killing of 3000 americans, and I didn't behead a journalist for the Wall Street Journal.

[Amry]

What does this have to do with anything? If you want to talk about cruel punishments in Islam (amputation, crucifixion), or the treatment of prisoners of war then we can open a different thread.

The relevance here is, if you're against one sort of Evil (Islam) and yet completely for another sort of Evil (Torture), then you're a moral hypocrite. That's like saying "I'm against murder, but rape is a-OK"

It is proven now that waterboarding lead to credible and useful information.

[citation needed]
First, you need to show what is this "credible information" that have been obtained. And no vague "information" like "we foiled a planned bombing at Karachi". Who is planning the bombing? Why? Have these claimed be substantiated? At the very least, the identity of the person who is making the claims (a Colonel in the Pentagon, for example), must be disclosed. The problem with anonymous sources is that anyone can claim anything.

And finally, you need to show that these information can only be obtained via waterboarding, and not with the more ethically-acceptable methods.

Also, a uniformed officer has protection under the Geneva convention. The point of the Geneva convention was to offer an incentive to wearing uniforms and distinguishing yourselves as soldiers to limit civilian casualties. What is then implied is that if you do not comply, you are not afforded the priviledges and protections outlined in the Geneva convention.

No.

The point of the Geneva Conventions is to make the battlefield a little bit more civilized. It's to rein in the excesses of several millenia of human stupidity.

But on to the uniforms. The Taliban, as it is, is barely a sort of government cobbled together with some outdated spare parts. How do you expect them to have uniforms when they don't even have a unified command and control? You're fighting a bunch of dirt farmers and you expect them to have a uniform? It's more of a matter of they can't, rather than they won't.

Well, that fact that you know where to look suggests that those would be the least likely places to hide secret plans from intelligence agents, lol.

So assume Osama called his homies in the US. And then, omg, HE MANAGED TO HACK INTO AT&T AND ERASE THE CALL RECORDS!

I wonder why the US kept the NSA and Project ECHELON around, since as you, the undisputed "master" of intelligence have decreed that call and Internet traffic interception is useless.

No, but some certainly do. You know the sayings about keeping a secret, the more people know, the more risk that it becomes exposed.

So you're saying terrorists have these specialized operatives whose only job is to memorize every detail of the plan, every transaction and every contigencies? You're straying into the fiction territory here.

I thought I addressed this, it only works on prisoners who let on that they have information

I'm sorry, why would a terrorist admit that? That's incredibly stupid beyond belief. If I'm a terrorist mastermind and I know one of my operatives have a habit of saying "I know the plans nyah nyah nyah", I'll make him repeat a semester at Terrorist School.

Sure, why not?

Ah, of course. Right after you ran four miles in a minute and kill a bear with your bare (lol pun) hands, no doubt. There's a reason why practically every law enforcement body in the entire civilized world (yes, including the US) categorized waterboarding as torture and does not condone its use, you know.

[Major.Stupidity]

Don't know if this has been posted yet, but needless to say it worth a viewing...

[Atlassmurf]

And eventually its only the numbers that matters... torturing 1 when you can save 10. What a bunch of genuises.