this one goes to those who think military should be mandatory

[dogukan]

http://www.radikal.com.tr/Radikal.as...&CategoryID=77

http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/gundem/12351675.asp?gid=229

-------------don't bother opening the links, they are in Turkish---------

Anyway this officer Mehmet Tümer who with his unit placed in southeast of Turkey(Elazığ possible PKK threat for the soldiers), has wasted lives of 4 soldiers.
Apparently this soldier İbrahim Öztürk was asleep during his guard duty..this one other soldier took his hand granade(the guy who is responsible of checking the guards) and brought it to the commander Mehmet Tümer so that the guard can not deny that he slept.
In the morning when the commander wakes up at 9:30 he takes the granade and goes to the soldier...asks where the grande is. When soldier can not find his granade, he gives the granade to the soldier and pulls that thing which triggers the granade. And tells him to hold it as a punishment.(fascist guy with a 19th century mind huh)
He tells him that he'll replace that thing which triggers the granade("pim" in Turkish) and orders him to continue his guard duty. The soldier, being stressed looks for help among other soldiers. The commander Mehmet(in his early 20s btw ) again orders him to wait saying he'll put the pim back and returns to his post.
The soldier with that stress can not wait and keeps looking for help around....and booooooom....4 dead. Trials start, and double pain for the families of soldiers.



And these soldiers do not even go there with their will, it's mandatory. Human life gets really unimportant in these situations.
Now some idiots argue that "if he sleeps on duty he could cause death of his brothers in arms" and almost says that the guy deserved it. I seriously hate this fascist way of thinking. They didn't want to be there in the first place. It is true though that the area is risky for soldiers that "sleep" but still. This is inhumane.
"If commaders like Mehmet Tümer didn't exist we wouldn't be sleeping in our homes safely" MY behind.
Sounds to me like "if we do not fight them in Iraq, they'll come and bomb our country"
I say military is not cool, and not something to take pride in. Take that kind of discpline and brainwashing and insert it somewhere in your body please in case you support it.

[Amry]

It's a tragedy sure, but how will it support your contention that "military service should not be mandatory"? Looks to me that it's more of a discipline problem rather than having anything to do with mandatory military service.

If I were to use an analogy, I can say that there are plenty of car accidents that kill people, but that by itself does not imply that driving cars are bad and should be banned.

[dogukan]

It's a tragedy sure, but how will it support your contention that "military service should not be mandatory"? Looks to me that it's more of a discipline problem rather than having anything to do with mandatory military service.

If I were to use an analogy, I can say that there are plenty of car accidents that kill people, but that by itself does not imply that driving cars are bad and should be banned.

Well tell that to the family of the dead guys, and well to the dead guy if you could. It's just a waste of life. The guy wasn't born to be a soldier, and didN't decide to be one. These guys had had their dreams after getting the hell out of military...

This is a case of a bad soldier and a terrible leader, which equals an unfortunate event. It's not really an argument against mandatory military service, however. There have been strong/harsh punishments for people sleeping on post. We were pretty severe with Iraqi soldier's that we caught sleeping on post. They did this because they knew we'd be awake, after a while we got heavy handed with them because they had to learn and understand that we weren't going to be there forever and there was a point in time where they'd have to shoulder that burden. Insurgents have a nasty ability of walking up on a sleeping dude and cut his throat, or even kidnap him. Staying awake on watch is a minor thing to learn but an important one. The commander, however, is quite obviously a moron. If such draconian methods are being applied by an officer in the Turkish military then one must question the remainded of the type of training these men recieve. Such a method would never be seen in the more modern militaries (however there are plenty of harsh methods that are considered against the rules, but not pulling the pin on a live frag).

They teach the people not to joke with weapons...obviously the commander did something against the rules. However, you never ever know what kind of person your commander will be, nor you get to choose them. So in a way, you are taking in a big risk without your will.

So is every Turkish Lt. like this or is the guy just a major douche. I cant read Turkish so is the officer being court marshelled or is he only going to be given a slap on the wrist.

Now if every officer in the miltary acted like him then I could understand your point. But I bet you the mass majority do not act like this. So should we blame military life style or the asshat who decided proper punishment involved killing 4 of his soldiers.

Obviously not, I do not want to disrespect ALL the officers(even though I'm not a fan of the army)....however, high ranking guys can be "like that" in many cases. They just like annoying people....for some sort of complex sometimes. Like they do not get the chance make those to a university graduates that will come to good places in the future.

It seems more like a problem of one crazy individual, than a case against mandatory military service.

Although a professional army will clearly be more motivated to do a good job than a bunch of citizens who are forced into service.

ps: didn't the grenade have a safety lever? From what I understand you can remove the pin but it won't go off as long as you press the safety leaver down. (not saying it isn't completely retarded to "play" with grenades like this of course)

Well I have a different perspective let's say.
There is safety thing, the guy held the granade for 10-20 minutes and when he get tired, or tried to put something else it blew up.

[Captain Jin]

They teach the people not to joke with weapons...obviously the commander did something against the rules. However, you never ever know what kind of person your commander will be, nor you get to choose them. So in a way, you are taking in a big risk without your will.

True to an extent, but this wouldn't happen in the west, man. This would be something that's obviously an issue in less professional, less modern militaries and is an indication that they need to re-evaluate the way in which they train their leaders. Like I said, I've been punished severely, and I've punished subordinates harshly, but doing something like that would never cross my mind, or anyone else's. That's a product of his poor training.

[Captain Jin]

This is a case of a bad soldier and a terrible leader, which equals an unfortunate event. It's not really an argument against mandatory military service, however. There have been strong/harsh punishments for people sleeping on post. We were pretty severe with Iraqi soldier's that we caught sleeping on post. They did this because they knew we'd be awake, after a while we got heavy handed with them because they had to learn and understand that we weren't going to be there forever and there was a point in time where they'd have to shoulder that burden. Insurgents have a nasty ability of walking up on a sleeping dude and cut his throat, or even kidnap him. Staying awake on watch is a minor thing to learn but an important one. The commander, however, is quite obviously a moron. If such draconian methods are being applied by an officer in the Turkish military then one must question the remainded of the type of training these men recieve. Such a method would never be seen in the more modern militaries (however there are plenty of harsh methods that are considered against the rules, but not pulling the pin on a live frag).

[Mikemanvick]

So is every Turkish Lt. like this or is the guy just a major douche. I cant read Turkish so is the officer being court marshelled or is he only going to be given a slap on the wrist.

Now if every officer in the miltary acted like him then I could understand your point. But I bet you the mass majority do not act like this. So should we blame military life style or the asshat who decided proper punishment involved killing 4 of his soldiers.

[Erik]

It seems more like a problem of one crazy individual, than a case against mandatory military service.

Although a professional army will clearly be more motivated to do a good job than a bunch of citizens who are forced into service.

ps: didn't the grenade have a safety lever? From what I understand you can remove the pin but it won't go off as long as you press the safety leaver down. (not saying it isn't completely retarded to "play" with grenades like this of course)

[Captain Jin]

It seems more like a problem of one crazy individual, than a case against mandatory military service.

Although a professional army will clearly be more motivated to do a good job than a bunch of citizens who are forced into service.

ps: didn't the grenade have a safety lever? From what I understand you can remove the pin but it won't go off as long as you press the safety leaver down. (not saying it isn't completely retarded to "play" with grenades like this of course)

Yeah, there are plenty of conscript European troops that prove you may lose quality but a degree of discipline and profressionalism won't necessarily be gone. This is just a crazy guy, not an indication of military life or whatever.

As for the grenade, it depends on the type. The m67 has a thumb clip, a pin, and a spoon (what you refer to as the lever). Remove the thumb clip, pull the pin, and yes, you can hold onto the spoon. As long as the spoon isn't released then the grenade will not go off. The spoon is spring loaded, though, so if he was a weak baby maybe his hand got tired and he released it, or maybe he was just freaking out so bad he let it go. Handling a live grenade is scary, no matter the circumstances.

[Erik]

Yeah, there are plenty of conscript European troops that prove you may lose quality but a degree of discipline and profressionalism won't necessarily be gone. This is just a crazy guy, not an indication of military life or whatever.

As for the grenade, it depends on the type. The m67 has a thumb clip, a pin, and a spoon (what you refer to as the lever). Remove the thumb clip, pull the pin, and yes, you can hold onto the spoon. As long as the spoon isn't released then the grenade will not go off. The spoon is spring loaded, though, so if he was a weak baby maybe his hand got tired and he released it, or maybe he was just freaking out so bad he let it go. Handling a live grenade is scary, no matter the circumstances.

What if you momentarily release the spoon, for example because the already live grenade was passed to you and you didn't grab it correctly right away?

Will the "countdown" stop or not?

[Captain Jin]

What if you momentarily release the spoon, for example because the already live grenade was passed to you and you didn't grab it correctly right away?

Will the "countdown" stop or not?

You have to fully release the spoon in order for the fuse to go, in which case the spoon would spring off the grenade. So if say, it was passed over and in that transition from one hand to the other a bit of pressure was released on the spoon, you should still be fine. The spoon itself actually flies off the grenade. You hold onto until you throw it, and when you release and throw it, the spring flings it off. Of course you can release it before and cook the grenade if you want, but this is always discouraged because while the fuse is five seconds, they are not always exact. And once the fuse has started there's no way to stop it. When that spoon comes off you better get rid of that thing or you're going to be pink mist.

[Erik]

You have to fully release the spoon in order for the fuse to go, in which case the spoon would spring off the grenade. So if say, it was passed over and in that transition from one hand to the other a bit of pressure was released on the spoon, you should still be fine. The spoon itself actually flies off the grenade. You hold onto until you throw it, and when you release and throw it, the spring flings it off. Of course you can release it before and cook the grenade if you want, but this is always discouraged because while the fuse is five seconds, they are not always exact. And once the fuse has started there's no way to stop it. When that spoon comes off you better get rid of that thing or you're going to be pink mist.

Ah, so there could not be any question if the grenade would go off or not.

But then the story doesn't make sense.
Why did everybody just stand around and why didn't he throw the grenade away as soon as the spoon was released?

I assumed it was an accident and the grenade went off without giving a clue, but you'd think the spoon flying off would be enough of a hint for everybody to seek cover.

EDIT:

Well I have a different perspective let's say.
There is safety thing, the guy held the granade for 10-20 minutes and when he get tired, or tried to put something else it blew up.

Ah, I didn't know he already had it for so long.
That makes more sense now.

[Justinian]

Isn't it impossible to disarm a grenade by replacing the pin?

What a horrible officer. Should be court martialed and jailed...

[Captain Jin]

Isn't it impossible to disarm a grenade by replacing the pin?

What a horrible officer. Should be court martialed and jailed...

No, as long as the spoon is still attached the pin can be re-inserted. Often a time when a man may pull the pin to toss a grenade in a room and then realize that's not a good idea anymore (walls too thin, innocent people inside, friendly inside, etc), in which case you replace the pin.

[razor-]

Was the officer a conscript? Because else I can't really see how this is an argument against mandatory service, then it might aswell had happened in a professional force.

[Avendiel]

Well, the point might be that mandatory service is more likely to net you "bad soldiers" in the first place.

I know if I were on the front lines, I'd want people around me who are there because they want to be, not ones who resent the military and might dislike their fellows as much as the enemy.

[Crimson Scythe]

While I'm not against mandatory military service in general (I think it can be an excellent experience for a youngster), I don't like the idea of sending conscripts to a conflict zone, especially a guerrilla war. I wish the TSK had learned from the US' experience in Vietnam (where draftees were also used in a guerrilla war) sooner.

It's one thing to be part of the Jandarma (i.e., Gendarmerie - paramilitary units responsible for rural policing and security duties in Turkey) in, say, Mugla (near Bodrum - where my cousin did his service), and quite another to serve in the southeast. I know the TSK (Turkish military) has been slowly professionalizing the services, focusing on combat units in particular, but such things take time. None of my immediate family have served there during the conflict with the PKK, though my father's uncle served there as a field surgeon during the Dersim Rebellion (1937). He said that even back then it was a grueling ordeal, even without the force multipliers of modern military technology.

[dogukan]

While I'm not against mandatory military service in general (I think it can be an excellent experience for a youngster), I don't like the idea of sending conscripts to a conflict zone, especially a guerrilla war. I wish the TSK had learned from the US' experience in Vietnam (where draftees were also used in a guerrilla war) sooner.

It's one thing to be part of the Jandarma (i.e., Gendarmerie - paramilitary units responsible for rural policing and security duties in Turkey) in, say, Mugla (near Bodrum - where my cousin did his service), and quite another to serve in the southeast. I know the TSK (Turkish military) has been slowly professionalizing the services, focusing on combat units in particular, but such things take time. None of my immediate family have served there during the conflict with the PKK, though my father's uncle served there as a field surgeon during the Dersim Rebellion (1937). He said that even back then it was a grueling ordeal, even without the force multipliers of modern military technology.

you have a point...It is very usefull for those poor jobless young people who actually learn something in the service. But thats about it. It has no use for others. There is even a phrase now
" did an academic career for escaping service"

[Ó Cathasaigh]

Patton would have shrugged it off.

[Kjertesvein]

I doubt they learned anything about disiplin...

seriously tho, I don't know how you bust down on bad apples, far up in the tree regarding military in Turkey, so I leave my prejudice about how turkish "reality" must be fixed.

Mandatory service: Military should have more options for all types of people. If you are disabled in a way then there should be respectable options, because for the first time, young cocky people can really learn alot.

[boofhead]

http://www.radikal.com.tr/Radikal.as...&CategoryID=77

http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/gundem/12351675.asp?gid=229

-------------don't bother opening the links, they are in Turkish---------

Anyway this officer Mehmet Tümer who with his unit placed in southeast of Turkey(Elazığ possible PKK threat for the soldiers), has wasted lives of 4 soldiers.
Apparently this soldier İbrahim Öztürk was asleep during his guard duty..this one other soldier took his hand granade(the guy who is responsible of checking the guards) and brought it to the commander Mehmet Tümer so that the guard can not deny that he slept.
In the morning when the commander wakes up at 9:30 he takes the granade and goes to the soldier...asks where the grande is. When soldier can not find his granade, he gives the granade to the soldier and pulls that thing which triggers the granade. And tells him to hold it as a punishment.(fascist guy with a 19th century mind huh)
He tells him that he'll replace that thing which triggers the granade("pim" in Turkish) and orders him to continue his guard duty. The soldier, being stressed looks for help among other soldiers. The commander Mehmet(in his early 20s btw ) again orders him to wait saying he'll put the pim back and returns to his post.
The soldier with that stress can not wait and keeps looking for help around....and booooooom....4 dead. Trials start, and double pain for the families of soldiers.



And these soldiers do not even go there with their will, it's mandatory. Human life gets really unimportant in these situations.
Now some idiots argue that "if he sleeps on duty he could cause death of his brothers in arms" and almost says that the guy deserved it. I seriously hate this fascist way of thinking. They didn't want to be there in the first place. It is true though that the area is risky for soldiers that "sleep" but still. This is inhumane.
"If commaders like Mehmet Tümer didn't exist we wouldn't be sleeping in our homes safely" MY behind.
Sounds to me like "if we do not fight them in Iraq, they'll come and bomb our country"
I say military is not cool, and not something to take pride in. Take that kind of discpline and brainwashing and insert it somewhere in your body please in case you support it.

That's just retarded. One incident involving complete morons says nothing about national service as a whole. A bit like saying that because a fireman is an arsonist state-run fire stations should be banned.