GOP Lies Have Won The Healthcare Debate

[Dr. Oza]

so true




very true commercial as well

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most americans against healthcare dont even know what thr against, all these lies and propaganda that are being told be fox, rush limbaugh, and the like are tainting our great nation, and making citizens oppose things that wud help them and things which they wud support if they knew the real facts

[TheTrainee]

I love how the AARP commercial is exactly that, an AARP commercial. And people say Medicare would be ruined by this?

And here's something completely anecdotal so take it as is...
I randomly talked to somebody from Canada today and asked him to what extent are the problems with the healthcare system.
His father had a heart problem and had to wait three months to get it fixed, but by the end of the three months he could barely walk up the stairs. They have a doctor-flight problem where doctors leave the country for better paying US jobs.
However, even with that somewhat negative personal experience he'd take the Canadian system of the US system any day.

Yet to liken what's being proposed to the Canadian system is, well, flawed, anyway. I just thought I'd share.

[Dr. Oza]

yea but

the health care system wouldnt be based on canada's model

[TheTrainee]

yea but

the health care system wouldnt be based on canada's model

Exactly what I was saying.

[cfmonkey45]

Being the brother of a woman with a serious terminal illness (cystic fibrosis, hence the first two letters of my name), my opinions on this debate are that both sides are arguing thoroughly from ignorance, and that many of the pundits (both right and left) have no clue about what they're talking about.

I've virtually grown up in a hospital waiting room, I have a mom who's a nurse, with numerous family members from my very large family being doctors or medical students, and I can tell you that firstly, the healthcare issue is fubar, but not unfixable. I do have to confess that while I have experience in what doesn't work, I have little experience in what does work. I have heard that the Dutch system is quite efficient and doable, but they also have a doctor-flight problem, and in many cases, to the US or other countries who have healthcare like it.

In my opinion, the Federal Government should help either help subsidize healthcare, or subsidize co-ops that help provide health care to individuals.

[JustShoveJayOhBe]

Being the brother of a woman with a serious terminal illness (cystic fibrosis, hence the first two letters of my name),

Don't take this the wrong way, but how is your sister alive? I thought cystic fibrosis was a genetic disease that strikes during childhood?

[King dude man]

Don't take this the wrong way, but how is your sister alive? I thought cystic fibrosis was a genetic disease that strikes during childhood?

that doesn't mean she woud be dead my uncle oscuer lived up in tell his 30's before he died

[cfmonkey45]

Don't take this the wrong way, but how is your sister alive? I thought cystic fibrosis was a genetic disease that strikes during childhood?

Fortunately, there have been several advances in medicine. When she was born ('86), she was given a life expectancy of 18 years. She's 23 now, and the pharmaceutical companies now have 3-4 possible cures for CF in development now (check the Atheneum, I think I posted a thread about it there).

[Hunter Makoy]

I quit watching the first one as soon as I saw the Young Turks symbol. That guy annoys the crap out of me.

the second one was much more exciting. CAR CHASES!!! You got my vote now!

[2-D Ron]

I'm sorry to say this but the United States is going to collapse if this death Grip of the Corporations isn't loosened.
Never thought I'd see the day when Tin Foil Hats and other such paranoid tards rule the asylum.

I quit watching the first one as soon as I saw the Young Turks symbol. That guy annoys the crap out of me.

the second one was much more exciting. CAR CHASES!!! You got my vote now!

Car Chases are always an Epic Win, I think Obama needs to do a commercial for Healthcare while jumping Double Decker Buses on a Motorcycle that's certain to improve opinion by 20% maybe more

In his opening couple of statements he says the democrats were trying to be bipartisan. - Big Fat Lie

There are absolutely no republican ideas incorperated into this/these bills. The only bipartisanship going on is in oppostion to obamacare.

What about the so-called "Death-Panels" Myth?
The Law they are mentioning was co-sponsored by a Republican and it had nothing to do with killing old people.
It was to decide whether in the case of the Patient being incapacitated beyond reasoning they could decide NOW when they are mentally able to make their own decisions with a Parent, loved one or Social Worker whether they want to be KEPT ALIVE or give the Doctors the Right to halt treatment if they degrade beyond help.

they have held negotiation after negotiation, and the republicans have offered no compromise, thats trying to be bi-partisan. Corrupt bribes off the health insurance industry to not reform is a bipartisan that is true. I wonder how much it would take to buy support? I mean the opponents have shown themselves to be for sale, whoring themselves to the health insurance industry, how much would it cost to get them to support the bill?

since all republican ideas are 'give more taxpayer money to the health care industry, and not ask for anything in return' or 'killl the bill to hurt Obama' what compromise could ever be reached?

Me thinks a Bullet to the their collective brains..

Ironic that if you kill a few people in America, you're put to Death.. Yet that's what the Insurance Firms are doing on a much grander scale and they get money for it, Bonuses, Tax Breaks. you name it.

Keep your private insurance company. How are you going to do that under the plan unless your extremely, extremely rich?

The point is competition is a GOOD THING!
It's not going to jump up your Insurance but in fact REDUCE the amount you have to pay a Month/Year.. Look at Microsoft, it dominates 91% of the Operating Systems Market and it charges a bloody fortune for it's software, most people have never heard of Alternatives like a Mac or Linux.

Sole Corporations that have no Rivals can charge what the hell they like for a product, that's what American Insurance Firms do, if the Government sets up a Single Payer Healthcare Plan it'll only make the Insurance Firms more competitive.
More Competition = Better Deals for YOUR Pocket.

But the Insurance Firms like Microsoft want all the Wealth for themselves, they don't want to share, they don't want to compromise.. Greed Over Human Life, that's what you've got now in America.

[danzig]

So basically point of this thread is to post some youtube videos and then label anyone who disagrees with the health care proposals (and evidently you) as being ignorant. You realize over half the country (according to polling) reject this specific plan and 160+million americans do not listen to Rush or watch Fox news. This plan failed because Democrats failed to push forth a plan that the people wanted, lies and there have been lies alone did not kill it. If the plan was good then Democrats would have been out there screaming their heads off about how good it was instead you have their own party divided on it. Democrats dont *need* republican votes to pass it so stop trying to scape goat the GOP for a failed, idiotic plan that people dont want. So no sorry Democrat, specifically Pelosi, Reid and those specific clowns have lost the health care debate. Now maybe they will pull their collective heads out their ass and work on reform that people actually want.

[morteduzionism]

So basically point of this thread is to post some youtube videos and then label anyone who disagrees with the health care proposals (and evidently you) as being ignorant.

No.

IMO, I think it refers specifically to the people who oppose reform yet don't even have a inkling of an idea what issues are being discussed. Glenn Beck said it was bad so it's bad, so on and so forth...

If you oppose reform based on principals...it doesn't apply to you. Not you personally but you know what I mean...

You realize over half the country (according to polling) reject this specific plan and 160+million americans do not listen to Rush or watch Fox news.

This statement is partially why I agree with the notion that "GOP lies have won the healthcare debate."

To me this sounds like what an intelligent person would say to a stupid person in order to trick them.

What "plan?"

All the crap that has been spewed has been to kill the debate before it's really gotten started. IMO, the average (to be read "stupid") person doesn't even know enough about the issues to know that there isn't even a plan.

Smart people, like I'm implying you are, won't bother to explain to the average person that simple truth.

Instead they'll say things like, "You realize over half the country (according to polling) reject this specific plan..."

The result? Polls saying people "reject" reform. Why? They don't know, they just know everybody else has a problem with it and they don't trust San Francisco Democrats...yada yada yada

If you play on a person/groups fears to make them side with you that doesn't mean your argument was more sound. If anything it shows you don't have an argument at all and had to resort to trickery/lying.

This plan failed because Democrats failed to push forth a plan that the people wanted, lies and there have been lies alone did not kill it.

No plan was ever pushed.

Obama asked Congress to come up with a plan to meet certain criteria (insure the uninsured/under insured and reduce costs) before a plan could even be created (bleep)ing Republicans were screaming government take over and death panel crap.

I know it's a common technique in debates to stick to your points. However, when your point is a blatant distortion it appears, to thinking people, that you're BS'ing.

How does one counter that?

If a person is going to continue to lie and the person being lied to refuses to accept the obvious truth...

Does that make the liar right? No, it just means that person's a liar and the other is gullible.

If the plan was good then Democrats would have been out there screaming their heads off about how good it was instead you have their own party divided on it.

What plan?

They're not divided on a "plan." They're debating proposals that would go into a plan.

Is this so hard to understand?

Democrats dont *need* republican votes to pass it so stop trying to scape goat the GOP for a failed, idiotic plan that people dont want. So no sorry Democrat, specifically Pelosi, Reid and those specific clowns have lost the health care debate. Now maybe they will pull their collective heads out their ass and work on reform that people actually want.

...like I said, "The result? Polls saying people "reject" reform. Why? They don't know, they just know everybody else has a problem with it and they don't trust San Francisco Democrats...yada yada yada"

The fact that you cite Pelosi and Reid who haven't even been involved in crafting healthcare legislation tells me all I need to know.

It's not about opposing reform for healthcare it's about opposing Nancy Pelosi, Harry Reid and Democrats in general.

What's really sad is that the GOP and its' supporters don't seem to care how they achieve victory. Cowardly low-brow acts don't faze them at all...sort of Al Qaeda-like.

[Cougar109]

Pretty much what danzig said. While there were plenty of twists and lies coming out of the GOP camp on this issue the real doom came from the complete and utter failure of this proposed plan. When you look at it and dive down deep you realize it's a big pile of . We do need a reform in health care, most Americans I believe agree that we need a reform in health care, however they don't want a plan that will force us to go back and overhaul the entire health care system again in 15 years. This isn't something that you can concoct in a few weeks then stick out there hoping no one notices and let then next generation worry about cleaning up the mess it causes, these people need to sit down and work the damn thing out to an acceptable level that will yield solid results. I'd love to see this administration overhaul our health care system, by my God do it right. When your own party splits and divides on the issue you know it's got some serious problems.

[AK47]

so true



very true commercial as well

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most americans against healthcare dont even know what thr against, all these lies and propaganda that are being told be fox, rush limbaugh, and the like are tainting our great nation, and making citizens oppose things that wud help them and things which they wud support if they knew the real facts

Foxnews never tells the people any facts ?
So let me guess only the liberal news channels tell the facts and Foxnews is 100% fiction ?
All the news channels bend the facts and base an opinion.
The facts are always there on all the news channels you just got to know how to seperate them from opinions those networks have.

[Ter]

Foxnews never tells the people any facts ?
So let me guess only the liberal news channels tell the facts and Foxnews is 100% fiction ?
All the news channels bend the facts and base an opinion.
The facts are always there on all the news channels you just got to know how to seperate them from opinions those networks have.

Some news channels are less factual than others. Fox is more of an opinion channel.

[TheKnight]

Some news channels are less factual than others. Fox is more of an opinion channel.

I think Fox actually tells the news as it should be told, unlike CNN or MSNBC.

[The Devil's Sergeant]

Stopped watching after the punk lied in the first sentence. Watching for 20 more seconds, that guy has a conplete and total inability to think.

[justicar5]

Stopped watching after the punk lied in the first sentence. Watching for 20 more seconds, that guy has a conplete and total inability to think.

where did he lie? Provide evidence that it is a lie.

[Dr. Croccer]

where did he lie? Provide evidence that it is a lie.

He disagrees with him. That clearly means he's wrong.

[The Devil's Sergeant]

where did he lie? Provide evidence that it is a lie.

In his opening couple of statements he says the democrats were trying to be bipartisan. - Big Fat Lie

There are absolutely no republican ideas incorperated into this/these bills. The only bipartisanship going on is in oppostion to obamacare.