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  1. #1
    MathiasOfAthens's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Senate Dems to push through Govt Health Plan

    http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/24/he.../24health.html

    WASHINGTON — Senate Democrats said Sunday that they were fleshing out plans to pass health legislation, particularly the option of a new government-run insurance program, with a simple majority, instead of the 60 votes that would ordinarily be needed to overcome a filibuster.
    After consulting experts in Senate rules and procedure, the Democrats said they were increasingly confident that they could legislate creation of a public plan in a way that would withstand challenges expected from Republicans.
    The rest of the article below.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Appearing Sunday on the NBC News program “Meet the Press,” Senator Charles E. Schumer of New York, the third-ranking Democrat in the Senate, said a public insurance plan was “essential to getting the costs down, which is our No. 1 problem.”
    Proponents of a public plan say it would drive down costs because it would not have a profit motive and would have lower overhead costs and lower executive salaries than private insurance companies.
    In Colorado on Aug. 15, President Obama said people had become “fixated” on the public plan option, which he described as “just one sliver” of efforts to overhaul the health care system.
    Mr. Schumer said it was “looking less and less likely” that Republicans would support Democratic proposals to subsidize coverage for tens of millions of the uninsured. And Senate Democratic leaders said they had little hope that the chairman of the Finance Committee, Senator Max Baucus, Democrat of Montana, would be able to forge a bipartisan compromise.
    In the last week, Democrats have begun to talk openly of using a procedure known as budget reconciliation to pass a health bill in the Senate with a simple majority, assuming no Republican support. To do that, under Senate rules, they would probably need to show that the public plan changed federal spending or revenues and that the effects were not “merely incidental” to the changes in health policy.
    Democrats believe they could clear this hurdle by demonstrating that the public plan would save money or cost money.
    “If a public plan is shown to have a cost to the government that affects outlays or revenues, it could be included in a health care bill using reconciliation procedures,” said Martin P. Paone, a former Senate aide who has been consulted by Senate Democrats.
    Republicans object to both the idea of a new government plan and the use of expedited procedures to push it through the Senate on a simple majority vote.
    Senator Orrin G. Hatch, Republican of Utah, said that using the budget reconciliation procedure to pass a health bill would be “an abuse of the process,” which was meant to focus on spending and tax policy. Moreover, Mr. Hatch said, “every Republican says that they will not be for a public option.”
    Mr. Hatch said a new public insurance program could “bankrupt the country.” He said it made no sense to “throw out a system that works for 85 percent” of the population so Congress could take care of the 15 percent who were uninsured.
    Senator Joseph I. Lieberman, independent of Connecticut, said Mr. Obama should take a more gradual approach. “We morally, every one of us, would like to cover every American with health insurance,” Mr. Lieberman said on “State of the Union” on CNN. But, he noted, “that’s where you spend most of the $1 trillion” in expected costs over 10 years.
    “We’ve got to think about putting a lot of that off until the economy’s out of recession,” he added. “There’s no reason we have to do it all now, but we do have to get started. And I think the place to start is cost, health delivery reform and insurance market reforms.”
    The administration continued on Sunday to wrestle with questions about planning for medical care at the end of life.
    Senator Arlen Specter, Democrat of Pennsylvania, called for hearings to investigate a guide used by the government to counsel veterans with critical or terminal illnesses.
    On “Fox News Sunday,” H. James Towey, the director of the White House Office of Faith-Based and Community Initiatives under President George W. Bush, said the guide seemed to encourage people to “hurry up and die.”
    The booklet, “Your Life, Your Choices,” asks people to consider whether life would be worth living if, for example, they were in severe pain, relied on a feeding tube or a breathing machine, lived in a nursing home or imposed “a severe financial burden” on family members.
    In addition, the booklet asks, “Have you ever heard anyone say, ‘If I’m a vegetable, pull the plug’?” It then explains that people have different ideas of what it means to be a vegetable or to “pull the plug.”
    In a bulletin last month, the Department of Veterans Affairs recommended the booklet as a tool to help veterans with “advance care planning.”
    Tammy Duckworth, an assistant secretary of veterans affairs, said it was being revised.
    But Mr. Towey said, “The document is so fundamentally flawed that the V.A. ought to throw it out.”


    Hopefully this is good news. Its not a complete victory since its not universal healthcare but that will come with time.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Senate Dems to push through Govt Health Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by MathiasOfAthens View Post
    http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/24/he.../24health.html



    The rest of the article below.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 




    Hopefully this is good news. Its not a complete victory since its not universal healthcare but that will come with time.
    Hopefully?


    Anything Gov't related is dreadful.

    +1 if this vote fails.


  3. #3
    MathiasOfAthens's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Senate Dems to push through Govt Health Plan

    How could goverment healthcare be worse than private. With Private you pay twice as much but the majority of the fees go to the pockets of the HMO execs and to the liability departments. HMO will do everything not to pay for a procedure.

    Per the Huffington Post about a June 2009 NBC/Wall Street Journal poll, "... 76 percent of respondents said it was either 'extremely' or 'quite' important to 'give people a choice of both a public plan administered by the federal government and a private plan for their health insurance.'"


    Govt Healthcare from the patient's perspective:
    • Free choice of doctor and hospital;
    • No bills, no co-pays, no deductibles;
    • No exclusions for pre-existing conditions; you are insured from the day you are born;
    • No bankruptcies due to medical bills;
    • No deaths due to lack of health insurance;
    • Cheaper. Simpler. More affordable;
    • Everybody in. Nobody out;
    • Save taxpayers billions a year in bloated corporate administrative and executive compensation costs.
    Last edited by MathiasOfAthens; August 24, 2009 at 09:41 AM.

  4. #4
    Darth Red's Avatar It's treason, then
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    Default Re: Senate Dems to push through Govt Health Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by MathiasOfAthens View Post
    How could goverment healthcare be worse than private. With Private you pay twice as much but the majority of the fees go to the pockets of the HMO execs and to the liability departments. HMO will do everything not to pay for a procedure.






    Govt Healthcare from the patient's perspective:
    • Free choice of doctor and hospital;
    • No bills, no co-pays, no deductibles;
    • No exclusions for pre-existing conditions; you are insured from the day you are born;
    • No bankruptcies due to medical bills;
    • No deaths due to lack of health insurance;
    • Cheaper. Simpler. More affordable;
    • Everybody in. Nobody out;
    • Save taxpayers billions a year in bloated corporate administrative and executive compensation costs.
    How will this be cheaper on the taxpayers. Will it force taxes to go up. How can this be written into law and not trample on the Constitution?
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  5. #5
    Last Roman's Avatar ron :wub:in swanson
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    Default Re: Senate Dems to push through Govt Health Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Red View Post
    How will this be cheaper on the taxpayers. Will it force taxes to go up.
    Yes, but the trade off is that you're no longer paying out of pocket.

    How can this be written into law and not trample on the Constitution?
    out of curiosity, in what way would it go against the constitution?
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  6. #6
    Darth Red's Avatar It's treason, then
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    Default Re: Senate Dems to push through Govt Health Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Last Roman View Post
    ...out of curiosity, in what way would it go against the constitution?
    Article 1

    Section 8

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

    To borrow money on the credit of the United States;

    To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;

    To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies
    throughout the United States;

    To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;

    To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current Coin of the United States;

    To establish Post Offices and Post Roads;

    To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;

    To constitute Tribunals inferior to the supreme Court;

    To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offenses against the Law of Nations;

    To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;

    To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;

    To provide and maintain a Navy;

    To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;

    To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;

    To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;

    To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular States, and the acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings; And

    To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.


    but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;
    I am referecning this line specificly. Any plan to subsidize a group of Americans by other Americans I would view as un-Constitutional.

    I understand the word "welfare" and would accept that it means heath and well being, but the plan must be fair to all Americans.
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  7. #7
    Last Roman's Avatar ron :wub:in swanson
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    Default Re: Senate Dems to push through Govt Health Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Red View Post

    I am referecning this line specificly. Any plan to subsidize a group of Americans by other Americans I would view as un-Constitutional.

    I understand the word "welfare" and would accept that it means heath and well being, but the plan must be fair to all Americans.
    So how this plan unfair?
    house of Rububula, under the patronage of Nihil, patron of Hotspur, David Deas, Freddie, Askthepizzaguy and Ketchfoop
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  8. #8

    Default Re: Senate Dems to push through Govt Health Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Red View Post
    Article 1

    Section 8

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

    To borrow money on the credit of the United States;

    To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;

    To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies
    throughout the United States;

    To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;

    To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current Coin of the United States;

    To establish Post Offices and Post Roads;

    To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;

    To constitute Tribunals inferior to the supreme Court;

    To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offenses against the Law of Nations;

    To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;

    To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;

    To provide and maintain a Navy;

    To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;

    To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;

    To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;

    To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular States, and the acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings; And

    To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.




    I am referecning this line specificly. Any plan to subsidize a group of Americans by other Americans I would view as un-Constitutional.

    I understand the word "welfare" and would accept that it means heath and well being, but the plan must be fair to all Americans.

    Thank God Social Security and Medicare never got pass... oh wait they did.

    It's the same thing, except we can scrap the latter and put a better form of it on everyone.
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    Target eliminated.
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  9. #9

    Default Re: Senate Dems to push through Govt Health Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Red View Post
    How will this be cheaper on the taxpayers. Will it force taxes to go up. How can this be written into law and not trample on the Constitution?
    Very simple. Abolish medicare and medicaid, begin the phase down of social security, makes some cuts in other departments and bam, you've got the revenue. Hell there won't even be the need for a tax increase. Universal healthcare has always been cheaper than the HMO system. The numbers are there to prove it. Something that conservatives need to do is to counter dems expansion by forcing them to make cuts as well.
    Heir to Noble Savage in the Imperial House of Wilpuri

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    JP226's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: Senate Dems to push through Govt Health Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by MathiasOfAthens View Post
    How could goverment healthcare be worse than private. With Private you pay twice as much but the majority of the fees go to the pockets of the HMO execs and to the liability departments. HMO will do everything not to pay for a procedure.





    Govt Healthcare from the patient's perspective:
    • Free choice of doctor and hospital;
    • No bills, no co-pays, no deductibles;
    • No exclusions for pre-existing conditions; you are insured from the day you are born;
    • No bankruptcies due to medical bills;
    • No deaths due to lack of health insurance;
    • Cheaper. Simpler. More affordable;
    • Everybody in. Nobody out;
    • Save taxpayers billions a year in bloated corporate administrative and executive compensation costs.
    Just wondering... how does the whole buy more fit into the supply/ demand framework and still remain cheaper?
    Sure I've been called a xenophobe, but the truth is Im not. I honestly feel that America is the best country and all other countries aren't as good. That used to be called patriotism.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Senate Dems to push through Govt Health Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by JP226 View Post
    Just wondering... how does the whole buy more fit into the supply/ demand framework and still remain cheaper?

    you get rid of the massive part of the health insurance industry (30%) that is concerned sololy with avoiding 'medical lose' (aka paying out on claims) you also don't have to make a profit.

  12. #12
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    Default Re: Senate Dems to push through Govt Health Plan

    What was the point in the first place trying to get Republican support? The Democrats have a super majority. They6 need only convince their own factions.

  13. #13
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    Default Re: Senate Dems to push through Govt Health Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Яome kb8 View Post
    What was the point in the first place trying to get Republican support? The Democrats have a super majority. They6 need only convince their own factions.
    On CNN they said 59% of the American electorate would support the bill if it was done bi-partisan, only 30 something if he would push it trough with the Democrats only.

    Strange...
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  14. #14

    Default Re: Senate Dems to push through Govt Health Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Яome kb8 View Post
    What was the point in the first place trying to get Republican support? The Democrats have a super majority. They6 need only convince their own factions.
    So when it turns into complete crap they can claim it was bipartisan.
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  15. #15

    Default Re: Senate Dems to push through Govt Health Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Яome kb8 View Post
    What was the point in the first place trying to get Republican support? The Democrats have a super majority. They6 need only convince their own factions.
    some of the supposed democrats are being lobbied by the insurance companies and thus not playing ball

    so they dont have the majority

  16. #16

    Default Re: Senate Dems to push through Govt Health Plan

    What was the point in the first place trying to get Republican support? The Democrats have a super majority. They6 need only convince their own factions.
    Well, for one Senator Kennedy may well be dead or unconcious when the vote comes up, and unless Mass. changes its laws, the seat will be empty and the senate will be 59-40, one short. Second, the "Blue-Dog" democrats are split with some already saying they categorically won't support any bill. This means the supporting democrat votes will be between 50-57 for any given bill. This is why the senate leaders are trying to work the moderate Republicans, (like Olympia Snow of Maine) because their vote would be needed to past closture (break a fillibuster).

    As to the public plan...

    1.) If it can cut out the 30% of administrative costs typical of a private insurer, and the profit taking/dividend payouts/high executive compensation, it could very well turn out to be cheap and effective, it which case people will flock to it.

    2.) If it turns out to be a flop, with sub-standard coverage, people will leave it and it will shrink.

    Where is the downside? I think people are getting confused in thinking the public option is also the vehical for subsidies. One of Obama's broad guidelines was that it had to be a break-even program, i.e. its premiums would cover its costs and couldn't run a deficit. Subsidies would therefore have to be seperate, and could be used to buy private or public insurance.

    I can't seem to find a source saying how/if this is done in any of the proposals, but I don't see a public option ever passing the senate (even by a simply majority) if it is not break-even.

  17. #17

    Default Re: Senate Dems to push through Govt Health Plan

    Lol someone's database wasn't kept up to date.
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  18. #18
    JP226's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: Senate Dems to push through Govt Health Plan

    you get rid of the massive part of the health insurance industry (30%) that is concerned sololy with avoiding 'medical lose' (aka paying out on claims) you also don't have to make a profit.
    So... to manage the whole supply demand equilibirum "thing" you are going to get rid of profits and make insurance companies pay out... so how does that work exactly?
    Sure I've been called a xenophobe, but the truth is Im not. I honestly feel that America is the best country and all other countries aren't as good. That used to be called patriotism.

  19. #19

    Default Re: Senate Dems to push through Govt Health Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by JP226 View Post
    So... to manage the whole supply demand equilibirum "thing" you are going to get rid of profits and make insurance companies pay out... so how does that work exactly?
    sorry misunderstood what you where refering to.


    anyway back to what you where actually refering to:

    The health care industry currently makes massive profits, and has repeatadly said it will not stop rescinding care, or increasing premiums above increases in costs. Make them hold to their contracts, make them subject to anti trust laws so they actually have to compete for custom, iniate a non-profit public option (or even a large co-op system) bring true competition into the market place. If they can't drive costs to the sutomer down they will be driven out of business.

  20. #20
    Ulyaoth's Avatar Truly a God Amongst Men
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    Default Re: Senate Dems to push through Govt Health Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by justicar5 View Post
    The health care industry currently makes massive profits, and has repeatadly said it will not stop rescinding care, or increasing premiums above increases in costs. Make them hold to their contracts, make them subject to anti trust laws so they actually have to compete for custom, iniate a non-profit public option (or even a large co-op system) bring true competition into the market place. If they can't drive costs to the sutomer down they will be driven out of business.
    Hey something that makes sense. Yeah, force the insurance companies to hold to their contracts, operate as a utility that can't deny service unless not paid for. If they're forced to give up their little idea of wasting money just to try to find out how they can break out of their obligations to their customers, the issue will be moot. I see no reason why a public option is necessary. I don't see how on earth it could possibly increase competition and drive down prices more than some common sense regulation on the industry.
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