The Church of Rome is Mystery Babylon the Great

[Caledonian Rhyfelwyr]

As a sort of offshoot from another thread, I would like to see people's opinions on the historicist interpretation of the Book of Revelation, which states that the Church of Rome is Babylon, mother of harlots and abominations upon the earth. Rather than focusing on all the misguided practices of the Catholic Church (that would take a whole discourse, far too much there for one post), instead I am focusing here on the Book of Revelation as indentifying Rome for what it is. You don't hear a lot of this position nowadays, people are too fascinated trying to identify American Presidents or Muslims leaders as the antichrist. However, such interpretations just don't stack up. Nowadays, the historicist interpretation is very limited, seen only in the more conservative Reformed circles and also in the Seventh-Day Adventist church. Anyway, from the evidence given below, I think it is hard to deny the Church of Rome is Mystery Babylon the Great, and will give rise to the antichrist when he comes. From what I can see this should be obvious from the Book of Revelation, but sadly Rome is wielding a new sword in the form of ecumenical work, and has inflitrated once sound churches to enslave their congregations with all the trappings of Popery. Anyway, below is my case:

1. And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters (Rev 17:1)

This is the first clue as to the identity of Babylon. In prophetical language, a false or unfaithful church is called a harlot or a whore, both in the OT and the NT, and so immediately it is clear that Babylon is not just a malicious power to Christians, but a false and deceitful church. Mariology, prayers to saints, the veneration of angels, worship of idols and relics... these are all signs of unfaithfulness to Christ, and the Roman Catholic Church has institutionalised every one of them. Also, the bit about sitting upon many waters means having influence over many people in Bible prophecy, which the Roman Catholic Church (the RCC from now on) undoubtedly does.

2. So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns. And the woman was arayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication (Rev 17:3-4)

Again, here all the clues point towards the RCC being this woman, Mystery Babylon the Great. Purple and scarlet are the most prominent colours to be used outwith the lower ranks of the RCC, and at any gathering in the Vatican the Pope is surrounded by a sea of scarlet and purple.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Just as Babylon is described, so too are the clergy, leaders, and buildings of the RCC decked with gold and preciosu stones. The second pic below shows the Pope's headgear... what ever happened to Christian humility?

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

3. And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration. (Rev 17:6)

This point hardly needs any further explanation when it comes to the RCC. The persecution with which Rome has sought to remove its enemies has taken many different forms. Most famous is the Inquisition, and besides this you have the brutal suppression of any new religious ideology seen as a threat to Roman power. Even prior to the Reformation the RCC crushed any opposition, be it from the Cathars, Hussites, Wycliffians etc. As the Reformation progressed, Rome would promise to uphold kings through its episcopal hierarchy, enforcing dogmas supporting the divine right of kings, and giving support to attrocities such as the St. Bartholomew Days massacre, and the Killing Time in which thousands of Scottish Covenanters were executed by the closet Papist Charles II. There is no doubt that the Roman Church has claimed the lives of far more honest Christians than any other single church could ever aspire to.

4. And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth. (Rev 17:9)

Here, the seven heads of the beast on which the woman (the harlot church) is said to sit are said to be representative of seven hills. Again, this points blatantly to the city of Rome, which is as far as I know the only great city to be famous for being built upon seven hills. This is so obvious there's not really much I can add to it.

5. And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth. (Rev 17:18)

To remove any doubt, Babylon is said to be synonymous with a single city. Where else could this be, but the city of Rome? What other city on earth is synonymous with the church based in it? The city of Rome is the seven hills on which the RCC, the harlot church, sits. No other city could have been said to "reigneth over the kings of the earth" in John's time when he wrote the Book of Revelation.

6. And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon. And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed. (Rev 13:11-12).

The above passage is a bit different from the rest I gave, in that I believe this relates to the person of the antichrist, rather than the Church of Rome more generally. Still, I think it shows that the (not a) antichrist will be a Pope. There are three beastly creatures mentioned in Revelation. Firstly is the dragon which fights with God in heaven and is cast down to earth, and this creature is said by John to be the satan himself. Then there is the first beast, which emerges out of the sea. The imagery is important, since remember in prophetical language the sea represents multitudes of people. Of course, the Papacy is a man-made instituation, which emerged from the greatest city of its time and came to rule over many people/waters. However, this second beast, disguised as a lamb (meaning he will impersonate Christ and pretend to be the second coming) is said to rise out of the earth. This beast is not a person, or an institution, but the son of perdition himself. Note how in the passage quoted above, it is said that this second beast "exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him", this means he must take power directly from the RCC, in other words he, the antichrist, will be a Pope.

So... how do Catholics defend against this?

[Ardruire Iacób]

So... how do Catholics defend against this?

Revelations is a drug-induced fantasy included in the Bible because it made a nice, dramatic ending?

[Avendiel]

Revelations is a drug-induced fantasy

[Caledonian Rhyfelwyr]

Revelations is a drug-induced fantasy included in the Bible because it made a nice, dramatic ending?

It's your Holy Scripture too. Is there any serious Biblical defence that can be made against the OP?

[Ardruire Iacób]

It's your Holy Scripture too. Is there any serious Biblical defence that can be made against the OP?

Who said I'm Catholic?

[Ardruire Iacób]

Well, Patmos is renowned for its magic mushrooms...

[Avendiel]

No argument here.

[Exarch]

wow
interesting

why is the so called 'whore of babylon' all about celibacy then?

[War lord]

wow
interesting

why is the so called 'whore of babylon' all about celibacy then?

Because it sounds better then "shagging is baaad".

[Exarch]

isnt the whore of babylon supposed to refer to all govs in the world?
and given how few countries will willingly follow vatican orders-those very same countries being nutta south american catholic fanatic countries-why would anyone think the vatican is the whore of babylon?

[cfmonkey45]

Ugh... how many protestants need regurgitate this propaganda.

Congrats, with little more than a few verses of subjective interpretation, you intolerantly condemned 1.1 billion christians.


I'm not a catholic, but I have many catholic friends and good relations with many more. I'm actually a Pentacostal, but I'll shoot this one down regardlessly.

As a sort of offshoot from another thread, I would like to see people's opinions on the historicist interpretation of the Book of Revelation, which states that the Church of Rome is Babylon, mother of harlots and abominations upon the earth. Rather than focusing on all the misguided practices of the Catholic Church (that would take a whole discourse, far too much there for one post), instead I am focusing here on the Book of Revelation as indentifying Rome for what it is. You don't hear a lot of this position nowadays, people are too fascinated trying to identify American Presidents or Muslims leaders as the antichrist. However, such interpretations just don't stack up. Nowadays, the historicist interpretation is very limited, seen only in the more conservative Reformed circles and also in the Seventh-Day Adventist church. Anyway, from the evidence given below, I think it is hard to deny the Church of Rome is Mystery Babylon the Great, and will give rise to the antichrist when he comes. From what I can see this should be obvious from the Book of Revelation, but sadly Rome is wielding a new sword in the form of ecumenical work, and has inflitrated once sound churches to enslave their congregations with all the trappings of Popery. Anyway, below is my case:

1. And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters (Rev 17:1)

This is the first clue as to the identity of Babylon. In prophetical language, a false or unfaithful church is called a harlot or a whore, both in the OT and the NT, and so immediately it is clear that Babylon is not just a malicious power to Christians, but a false and deceitful church. Mariology, prayers to saints, the veneration of angels, worship of idols and relics... these are all signs of unfaithfulness to Christ, and the Roman Catholic Church has institutionalised every one of them. Also, the bit about sitting upon many waters means having influence over many people in Bible prophecy, which the Roman Catholic Church (the RCC from now on) undoubtedly does.

Not really going to defend Church doctrine that isn't mine, but that verse has little to no relevance. Biblically, that passage is very vague and can, if that is the interpretation, condemn innumberable things (i.e. Nation-states, confederations like the EU, treaty organizations such as NATO, or even a future superstate that we don't know of).

2. So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns. And the woman was arayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication (Rev 17:3-4)

Again, here all the clues point towards the RCC being this woman, Mystery Babylon the Great. Purple and scarlet are the most prominent colours to be used outwith the lower ranks of the RCC, and at any gathering in the Vatican the Pope is surrounded by a sea of scarlet and purple.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Just as Babylon is described, so too are the clergy, leaders, and buildings of the RCC decked with gold and preciosu stones. The second pic below shows the Pope's headgear... what ever happened to Christian humility?

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Purple and Scarlot were colours associated with wealth and power. Virtually limitless connections.

3. And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration. (Rev 17:6)

This point hardly needs any further explanation when it comes to the RCC. The persecution with which Rome has sought to remove its enemies has taken many different forms. Most famous is the Inquisition, and besides this you have the brutal suppression of any new religious ideology seen as a threat to Roman power. Even prior to the Reformation the RCC crushed any opposition, be it from the Cathars, Hussites, Wycliffians etc. As the Reformation progressed, Rome would promise to uphold kings through its episcopal hierarchy, enforcing dogmas supporting the divine right of kings, and giving support to attrocities such as the St. Bartholomew Days massacre, and the Killing Time in which thousands of Scottish Covenanters were executed by the closet Papist Charles II. There is no doubt that the Roman Church has claimed the lives of far more honest Christians than any other single church could ever aspire to.

Inquisition killed about 3,000-5,000 people in its activity, St. Bartholomew's Day Massacre about 30,000, and then tens of thousands more killed on both sides in the Wars of Religion. How many thousands of Catholics were murdered by Protestants? How many civilians were killed by Gustavus Adolphus armies? (estimated that 2,000 castles and 15,000 towns were raised. If those towns had 200 killed people in each, that would be close to 3,000,000 from the Protestant Swedish armies alone.) Nations like England and Denmark, both Protestant, carried out state-sponsored witch-hunts and executions. Many Catholics in Ireland and, later, the United States, were persecuted for their religious beliefs. In the 19th Century, because of racism and anti-Catholicism, most employers hung "NINA" signs (No Irish Need Apply).

The Ku Klux Klan emerged following the Civil War from defeated Confederate Army Officers, and they were made up of predominantly Southern Protestants to target blacks, carpet baggers, Catholics, and immigrants. Sound very Christian? Catholics don't seem to be the bad guys any more given what bigotry in the name of religion has accomplished.

I feel this is nothing more than cherry picking, you're conviently citing sources that support your theory, but casting out those that fall astray such as it once was, now is not, yet will come again (Revelation 17:4)

The Catholic Church never existed before John, so that phrase refutes it.

4. And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth. (Rev 17:9)

Here, the seven heads of the beast on which the woman (the harlot church) is said to sit are said to be representative of seven hills. Again, this points blatantly to the city of Rome, which is as far as I know the only great city to be famous for being built upon seven hills. This is so obvious there's not really much I can add to it.

Spoiler for List of Cities Built upon Seven Hills: 

City of Seven Hills usually refers to Rome. There are at least 45 cities on this list. There are many other cities claimed to be built on seven hills or less than seven.

• Amman, Jordan
• Asunción, Paraguay
• Bamberg, Germany
• Barcelona, Catalonia, said to be built on Mont Tàber, La Rovira, El Coll, El Carmel, La Peira, El Putxet and Montjuïc
• Bath, England
• Budapest, Hungary
• Cagliari, Sardinia
• Ceuta, Spain
• Cincinnati, Ohio, United States
• Dunedin, New Zealand
• Edinburgh, Scotland
• Gorzow, Poland
• Guaranda, Ecuador
• Iaşi, Romania
• Istanbul, Turkey (see Seven hills of Istanbul)
• Jerusalem, Israel [1]
• Kampala, Uganda built on Mengo, Lubaga, Namirembe, Old Kampala, Kibuli, Nakasero and Makerere
• Kiev, Ukraine [2]
• Lisbon, Portugal
• Los Angeles, California, United States
• Lynchburg, Virginia, United States
• Lviv, Ukraine
• Macau
• Mecca, Saudi Arabia
• Melbourne, Australia
• Moscow, Russia
• Nevada City, California, United States, built on Piety, Lost, Prospect, Aristocracy, Boulder, Nabob, and Buckeye Hills
• Plovdiv, Bulgaria
• Prague, Czech Republic, said to be built on seven or nine hills: Hradčany, Vítkov, (Opyš), Větrov, Skalka, (Emauzy), Vyšehrad, Karlov and Petřín
• Providence, Rhode Island, built on Christian Hill, College Hill, Constitution Hill, Federal Hill, Smith Hill, Tockwotten Hill, and Weybosset Hill.
• Pula, Croatia
• Richmond, Virginia, United States, built on numerous hills and escarpments to include Union Hill, Church Hill, Council Hill, Shockoe Hill, Gambles Hill, Navy Hill and Oregon Hill.
• Rome, Georgia, United States
• Rome, Italy (see Seven hills of Rome)
• Saint-Etienne, France
• Saint Paul, Minnesota, United States
• San Francisco, California, United States (see List of hills in San Francisco, California)
• Seattle, Washington, United States (see Seven hills of Seattle)
• Sheffield, England
• Somerville, Massachusetts, United States
• Tallahassee, Florida, United States
• Tehran, Iran
• Thiruvananthapuram, India
• Tirumala, India
• Torquay, England
• Turku, Finland
• Worcester, Massachusetts, United States, built on Airport Hill, Bancroft Hill, Belmont Hill, Grafton Hill, Green Hill, Pakachoag Hill, and Vernon Hill.
• Zevenbergen, Netherlands

And technically, the RCC only controls the Vatican, which is only built upon one hill.

5. And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth. (Rev 17:18)

To remove any doubt, Babylon is said to be synonymous with a single city. Where else could this be, but the city of Rome? What other city on earth is synonymous with the church based in it? The city of Rome is the seven hills on which the RCC, the harlot church, sits. No other city could have been said to "reigneth over the kings of the earth" in John's time when he wrote the Book of Revelation.

I fail to see where you successfully proved that they were indeed referring to a church.

6. And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon. And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed. (Rev 13:11-12).

The above passage is a bit different from the rest I gave, in that I believe this relates to the person of the antichrist, rather than the Church of Rome more generally. Still, I think it shows that the (not a) antichrist will be a Pope. There are three beastly creatures mentioned in Revelation. Firstly is the dragon which fights with God in heaven and is cast down to earth, and this creature is said by John to be the satan himself. Then there is the first beast, which emerges out of the sea. The imagery is important, since remember in prophetical language the sea represents multitudes of people. Of course, the Papacy is a man-made instituation, which emerged from the greatest city of its time and came to rule over many people/waters. However, this second beast, disguised as a lamb (meaning he will impersonate Christ and pretend to be the second coming) is said to rise out of the earth. This beast is not a person, or an institution, but the son of perdition himself. Note how in the passage quoted above, it is said that this second beast "exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him", this means he must take power directly from the RCC, in other words he, the antichrist, will be a Pope.

Wait... what?


Basically, this entire time, you've been spewing forth nonsense with no corroborating evidence, and then shouting out out-of-context verses with no relevance, or tenuous at most.

[Caledonian Rhyfelwyr]

Not really going to defend Church doctrine that isn't mine, but that verse has little to no relevance. Biblically, that passage is very vague and can, if that is the interpretation, condemn innumberable things (i.e. Nation-states, confederations like the EU, treaty organizations such as NATO, or even a future superstate that we don't know of).

The imagery of a harlot is always used to portray a false church, not an openly non-Christian institution, and so this immediately rules out any nations, international organisations etc. I doubt we will ever see a strong temporal power rule in the name of Christianity. The image of adultery is used in relation to Christ's usage of the imagery of the church as being his bride, for "The bride belongs to the bridegroom" (Joh 3:29), and so Paul says to the Corinthian believers that "I have espoused you as a chaste virgin to Christ" (2 Cor 11:2). Hence the imagery of Babylon causing others to "commit fornication" (Rev 2:14) by its unfaithfulness to Christ. This is standard prophetical language, look for example at Isaiah 1:21, Ezekiel 16:5, Hosea 4:15 etc. All this only makes sense if Babylon gives an illusion of being a true church.

Purple and Scarlot were colours associated with wealth and power. Virtually limitless connections.

Only one empire ruled with wealth and power during John's time, guess where it was based...

In fact, the city of Rome itself is identified at numerous points throughout the NT as being the new Babylon, that would persecute the saints just as literal Babylon had done to the Israelites throughout the OT. The similarities between the old literal Babylon and the new mystery Babylon are very clear. "I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God" (Isa 14:13). "I shall be a Lady for ever. I am, and none else beside me; I shall not sit as a Widow, neither shall I know the loss of children" (Isa 47:7-8). And now Rome is well known today as the Eternal City. Indeed, after the destruction of the temple and the carrying away of Jewish ceremonial pieces to Rome (in the same manner as the Babylonian captivity), the name of Rome was used synonymously with Babylon by the Jews. They even have a proverb, "the Redemption of Israel will not be accomplished, before Rome is destroyed." Just as ancient Babylon called itself "Queen of the world" (Isa 47:7), now with rapid Mariology, the RCC calls Mary "Queen of the world", "Mother of God"! This is clear Babylonianism, nothing but paganism and never Christianity.
,

Inquisition killed about 3,000-5,000 people in its activity, St. Bartholomew's Day Massacre about 30,000, and then tens of thousands more killed on both sides in the Wars of Religion. How many thousands of Catholics were murdered by Protestants? How many civilians were killed by Gustavus Adolphus armies? (estimated that 2,000 castles and 15,000 towns were raised. If those towns had 200 killed people in each, that would be close to 3,000,000 from the Protestant Swedish armies alone.) Nations like England and Denmark, both Protestant, carried out state-sponsored witch-hunts and executions. Many Catholics in Ireland and, later, the United States, were persecuted for their religious beliefs. In the 19th Century, because of racism and anti-Catholicism, most employers hung "NINA" signs (No Irish Need Apply).

The Ku Klux Klan emerged following the Civil War from defeated Confederate Army Officers, and they were made up of predominantly Southern Protestants to target blacks, carpet baggers, Catholics, and immigrants. Sound very Christian? Catholics don't seem to be the bad guys any more given what bigotry in the name of religion has accomplished.

I feel this is nothing more than cherry picking, you're conviently citing sources that support your theory, but casting out those that fall astray such as it once was, now is not, yet will come again (Revelation 17:4)

The Catholic Church never existed before John, so that phrase refutes it.

Why do you count persecution of Catholics are persecution of Christian saints?

And even if you did, the examples you mentioned are rarely organised by the churches themselves, since only the hierarchical nature of the RCC allows it to have such power. Few Protestant churches have this episcopal system, and even those that do (eg Anglicans) never had sufficient temporal influence to wield it against the saints as Rome did throughout its history.

The Catholic Church never existed before John, but Babylon did. The RCC is the revived Babylonian empire. Many of the pagan practices it has introduced under the pretext of Christianity are taken directly from the religious beliefs of ancient literal Babylon. Take for example Christmas. Jesus wasn't born on the 25th of December, but the Babylonian Goddess of Nature was, and the celebrations of this were based around partying, feasting, drinking, and giving gifts. Sounds familiar enough? And the Roman festival of the same time was another reason why certain Christians adopted their own on the same date. To Romans, Saturnalia celebrated the birth of the unconquerable sun. And so this is the birth which many celebrate on Christmas, a pagan sun god rooted in Babylon! The RCC is nothing but Babylon revived, masking its paganism under a thin veil of Christian religion.

Spoiler for List of Cities Built upon Seven Hills: 

And technically, the RCC only controls the Vatican, which is only built upon one hill.

And how many of those cities existed in John's age? Only one city as far as I can see has retained a great deal of influence over all these centuries. Since the antichrist is still to come, we must accept that the great city in which he will take power existed during John's time, and will continue to exist until the prophecies of Revelation have been fulfilled. So that more or less narrows down your list to a single city.

I fail to see where you successfully proved that they were indeed referring to a church.

See the first part of this post.

Wait... what?


Basically, this entire time, you've been spewing forth nonsense with no corroborating evidence, and then shouting out out-of-context verses with no relevance, or tenuous at most.

The context for the coming of the antichrist lies in understanding what the first beast of Revelation is. It is described as a false church, that sits on a city of seven hills, a great city that has existed since John's time until today, decked in scarlet and gold, that has reigned over the kings of the earth, become drunk on the blood of saints... if this still does not convince you that it refers to Rome then nothing will.

[justicar5]

Only one empire ruled with wealth and power during John's time, guess where it was based...

False, their was more than one empire in Johns time, The parthian empire (later the sasanid) equaled and often exceeded romes miltitary power, and mercantile wealth.

[Old_Scratch]

The imagery of a harlot is always used to portray a false church,

No, not exactly. A prostitute was generally used as a description of godless cities in the OT. See Isaiah 1.21, 23.16-17 and Nahum 3.4. Nowhere is a false church implied.

Also, it is most likely that John is talking about the city of Rome, but it is Rome as he knew it, not the modern city of Rome. The descriptions match up with ancient Rome much better than they do with the RCC. Revelation was written to be read by the people of Johns time and is not describing events thousands of years in the future.

[My Favorite Martian]

One may add Isaiah 47. The point is probably that the dogmatic polemic between christian confessions of the second half of 16th and the first half of 17the century has made use of all kind of images to discredit the other side. If they had only used images, one may say "well", but we know where it has ended ... in fanatism and bloodrush.

[Caledonian Rhyfelwyr]

False, their was more than one empire in Johns time, The parthian empire (later the sasanid) equaled and often exceeded romes miltitary power, and mercantile wealth.

Rome was much more relevant to the early Christians, and all the other points mentioned in Revelation match up to Rome. The Sassanid Empire wouldn't fit, not to mention the fact that it has not manifested itself in any other form until today, whereas Rome has always remained at the heart of temporal and spiritual kingdoms.

Who said I'm Catholic?

OK I was a bit presumptious.

No, not exactly. A prostitute was denerally used as a description of godless cities in the OT. See Isaiah 1.21, 23.16-17 and Nahum 3.4. Nowhere is a false church implied.

To be more accurate, the word John uses in Revelation is 'porne', and it is this word which is used over fifty times throughout the OT to describe spiritual fornication and corrupt doctrines, specifically those made by the church as it existed in Israel, and not heathen cities.

Furthermore, the use of the term 'Mystery' before Babylon's title strongly indicates that Babylon is something which corrupts that which is sacred, rather than being openly infidel. In the twenty-odd times the term is used throughout the NT, every single time it is applied to either a church or something holy.

Also, it is most likely that John is talking about the city of Rome, but it is Rome as he knew it, not the modern city of Rome. The descriptions match up with ancient Rome much better than they do with the RCC. Revelation was written to be read by the people of Johns time and is not describing events thousands of years in the future.

There is plenty of evidence from the beliefs of the early Christians which shows that they did not regard heathen Rome as Babylon. Bishop Irenaeus of Lyon was a student of Polycarp, one of the earliest scholars of St. John, and he believed that the abomination of desolation would not arise until heathen Rome had split into ten kingdoms (from the ten horns of the beast), at which point Babylon would unite them under it's power. Tertullian even says that the early Christians prayed for the duration of heathen Rome, because they believed the power which would arise in its place would be far more terrible.

Also, the historical knowledge we have of the fall of heathen Rome is in now way compatible with the description John gives of the fall of Babylon.

[MaximiIian]

Also, the historical knowledge we have of the fall of heathen Rome is in now way compatible with the description John gives of the fall of Babylon.

Which further shows that St. John of Patmos was, in all likelihood, a rambling crackpot who thought he saw the future.
Either that, or someone who saw the future, but ended up watching Neon Genesis Evangelion instead.

[Old_Scratch]

To be more accurate, the word John uses in Revelation is 'porne', and it is this word which is used over fifty times throughout the OT to describe spiritual fornication and corrupt doctrines, specifically those made by the church as it existed in Israel, and not heathen cities.

Porne means prostitute. IIRC, a high class prostitute specifically. Anyway, what are your examples for it referring to a church?

Bishop Irenaeus of Lyon ...Tertullian.

Both are from the 3rd century CE and neither are Jews. Revelation was likely penned in the mid 1st century. Also, John of Patmos was likely a Jew and had no love of the Roman Empire. Ideas are not static throughout different time periods and cultures.

Also, the historical knowledge we have of the fall of heathen Rome is in now way compatible with the description John gives of the fall of Babylon.

Moot point for me at least since I'm not Christian and don't believe in prophesy. I see it as a book written by a man about his own time. Whether or not the revelations came true is irrelevant.

[boofhead]

This is exactly what Jehovah's Witnesses (and some others) believe.

[My Favorite Martian]

I don't know.

I think it is more 16th century polemic that assumes someone gets it right when he only gets the informations right together (De vera religione). It is the idea you can represent "truth" in a system of sentences derivated from antique sources.