Make the Papal States My Vassal?

[InsaneHanz]

I'm playing as the Moors on H/H. I had a reputation of Very Reliable until the Papal States attacked me, then it dropped to Mixed. I destroyed their armies and took all of their settlements. When I go into diplomacy talks, there's no option to make them my vassal. I'm assuming it's because they don't have any settlements. They also won't accept a ceasefire even though they only have a unit of Italian Militia and two generals. If I give them a region, would it be possible to make them my vassal or is it just impossible?

[Chopa]

Why not to try give them a settlement and try this out.But i bet it's imposable for Muslim faction to make papal states an ally or a vassal

[PerXX]

I'm pretty sure the Papal States was a vassal to the Byzantines, for a small period of time, in my Denmark campaign in 6.2, so it must be possible.

Bear in mind that getting anyone as your vassal, will seriously affect gameplay, as you'll be swimming in money, due to the AI moneyscripts.

[Sir Walter]

Why not to try give them a settlement and try this out.But i bet it's imposable for Muslim faction to make papal states an ally or a vassal

It was possible on vanilla - Moors were allied with the Pope in my French campaign. True

[Ahmed IV]

Why not to try give them a settlement and try this out.But i bet it's imposable for Muslim faction to make papal states an ally or a vassal

I am currently playing as Egypt (The Fatmid Caliphate) in SS 6.1, and the Papal state is my ally.

[bɑne]

I only turn states into vassal in hotseat games where I can at least really take over the country. This eleminates the AI monescript problem and is also more true to the description of client kingdom

[bɑne]

Some of the submods here have a decline build in the relations pope / islamic factions but that still doesnt remove the possibility of an alliance completely.
It does make it extremly likely that they wont keep the alliance if one is formed and the constellations for one happening without a human player on the islamic side are not likely to happen.

[Sir Walter]

Good point. Plus there's no actual use in allying with the Pope if you're not a Catholic because they never invade anyone (or haven't in my campaigns, but they've never been on the border of Christendom so far).

[bɑne]

Good point. Plus there's no actual use in allying with the Pope if you're not a Catholic because they never invade anyone

There are quite a few Venice and Sicily-players out there that were invaded by the papacy as the Pope is generally scripted more active in this submod and its versions.

[Sir Walter]

There are quite a few Venice and Sicily-players out there that were invaded by the papacy as the Pope is generally scripted more active in this submod and its versions.

Oh right. But that's a bit inaccurate? The Popes weren't too aggressive, were they? They weren't even allowed to spill blood! Well, they used maces which kill bloodlessly

[Hinkle]

Plus there's no actual use in allying with the Pope if you're not a Catholic

Protection from Crusades?

[InsaneHanz]

I actually want them as my ally so that the Catholic factons will stop attacking me. I have Spain and England as my ally but my relations with Spain have been horrible since my war with the Papal States started. I would gift them money but I'm very short on it right now since I lost trading rights with two very rich neighbors. Also defending my borders from possible attacks is getting very expensive.

[Ichon]

Your reputation is based mostly on if you only occupy cities or if you do worse and if you execute prisoners or not. The nicer tactic lead to better reputation. Of course disobey Pope is bad for Catholics but as Moors you don't have to worry there. Sometimes just being a large non-Catholic faction pisses the Pope and other Catholic factions off. Only thing you can do is only occupy city and ransom or release prisoners. Ransom is neutral while release is quite positive. Also never take a city you sold to someone. Even if a different faction owns the city now it will make you dubious or worse. If you fighting alot though you can simply release many prisoners and after a few turns be back to mixed but personally I dislike releasing prisoners so only raise rep by occupying cities which takes longer.

I have played 2 campaigns with aggressive Papal States and they are REALLY aggressive. First one they were halfway to destroying Sicily and Venice when I as Genoa allied with Sicilians because I didn't want to be next. Captured every Papal State city but they refused peace for 40 turns. Finally when I offered them 3 regions, 1000 tribute per turn for 22 turns and 5000 payment they accept ceasefire. Then as Danemark I saw the Papal States completely wipe out Sicily and somehow it captured all of Italy except Venice and was making war on both Hungry and Byzantines.

[InsaneHanz]

Your reputation is based mostly on if you only occupy cities or if you do worse and if you execute prisoners or not. The nicer tactic lead to better reputation. Of course disobey Pope is bad for Catholics but as Moors you don't have to worry there. Sometimes just being a large non-Catholic faction pisses the Pope and other Catholic factions off. Only thing you can do is only occupy city and ransom or release prisoners. Ransom is neutral while release is quite positive. Also never take a city you sold to someone. Even if a different faction owns the city now it will make you dubious or worse. If you fighting alot though you can simply release many prisoners and after a few turns be back to mixed but personally I dislike releasing prisoners so only raise rep by occupying cities which takes longer.

I have played 2 campaigns with aggressive Papal States and they are REALLY aggressive. First one they were halfway to destroying Sicily and Venice when I as Genoa allied with Sicilians because I didn't want to be next. Captured every Papal State city but they refused peace for 40 turns. Finally when I offered them 3 regions, 1000 tribute per turn for 22 turns and 5000 payment they accept ceasefire. Then as Danemark I saw the Papal States completely wipe out Sicily and somehow it captured all of Italy except Venice and was making war on both Hungry and Byzantines.

I always occupy unless I'm really short on money. I never execute and usually release if it's only a few prisoners. I think it's kind of BS that my reputation went down so far because the Papal States attacked me. My relations with the Papal States had been dropping for no real reason before [maybe it's because I was converting Catholics to Islam and I wiped out Sicily(accident) and Portugal]

It sounds like it's going to be pretty much impossible to make the Papal States my vassal based on your story.

[Sir Walter]

Good point. I'm not sure if they'd be that scrupulous... as France I gave the Pope 15,000 florins and he let me kill the English (who were 8/10 reputation with him at the time) without so much as a "Negotiate a Ceasefire or your reputation will suffer". It was funny attacking while it said "This will Result in Excommunication!" then seeing my reputation stay at 10/10...

[princeps.omnis]

This thread made me curious, so I tested it out.

Results: For 2.5 million florins, the Pope was happy to part with his independent sovereignty. It's been a few turns now, and he is still my vassal.

So, it is apparently possible, just completely unfeasible.

[Byg]

This thread made me curious, so I tested it out.

Results: For 2.5 million florins, the Pope was happy to part with his independent sovereignty. It's been a few turns now, and he is still my vassal.

So, it is apparently possible, just completely unfeasible.

Why unfeasible?

BTW, is Vatican state the last dictatorship in europe now?

[Sir Walter]

Why unfeasible?

BTW, is Vatican state the last dictatorship in europe now?

Unfeasible for people who can't afford 2.5 million florins

I'm not sure about Moldova, probably though.

Well in my Genoa game the Pope never agreed to ceasefire after 15 turns despite I offered 4 regions, 50,000, and 1,000 per turn. I think it is partially due Pope is allied with HRE, France, Crusaders, Teutons, Hungry, and Castille and knows can never be fully defeated. Though I am killing a Pope every other turn or so when he spawns. Eventually I hope I get enough cardinals to make my own Pope and then maybe get a ceasefire.

At some point, there'll be no Cardinals at all, they have to have 4/10 piety

[Arcapt]

I'm not sure about Moldova, probably though.

It is not, a rather disputed election took place recently after a dissolution caused by riots and they were having quite a problem electing their president without a firm majority in the parliament as far as i know.
Also, calling the Vatican, or any absolute monarchy, a dictatorship is a bit far-fetched. While a few european countries retain very questionable political practices, the last true dictatorship remaining in Europe is Belarus lead by Loukachenko.

[InsaneHanz]

This thread made me curious, so I tested it out.

Results: For 2.5 million florins, the Pope was happy to part with his independent sovereignty. It's been a few turns now, and he is still my vassal.

So, it is apparently possible, just completely unfeasible.

Oh wow. I guess I'll just take city near Jerusalem and give it to them for a ceasefire to keep them out of my hair.

The Pope must be stubborn because he knows his state can't be destroyed.