This issue has been covered in the Existence of God thread, and the Cults thread. So I thought it might be easier to consolidate all debvate on the matter here. You know the rules, keep it civil etcetera.
Mr Common Sense
Beginning of the Universe
This issue has been covered in the Existence of God thread, and the Cults thread. So I thought it might be easier to consolidate all debvate on the matter here. You know the rules, keep it civil etcetera.
primus pater cunobelin erat; sum in patronicium imb39, domi wilpuri; Saint-Germain, MasterAdnin, Pnutmaster, Scorch, Blau&Gruen,
Ferrets54, Honeohvovohaestse, et Pallida Mors in patronicum meum sunt
Ok well to give newcomers some background, we were discussing the big bang and what might happen to the universe in the future and what coulve been before the big bang.
As well as the reason for it all to happen in the first place.
Well yes and i was arguing that there is no reason, it just happened.
And now all these years later, creatures called humans have evolved significantly so they can now talk about it on the internet, yay.
Mr Common Sense
Reasons are an illusion created by a mind evolved to see connectons and causes, the same way we create conspiracy theories. God is one of these "reasons". Of course, so is the Big Bang, but at least that has scientific evidence.
O, and thank evolution/science/mankind for the internet...
primus pater cunobelin erat; sum in patronicium imb39, domi wilpuri; Saint-Germain, MasterAdnin, Pnutmaster, Scorch, Blau&Gruen,
Ferrets54, Honeohvovohaestse, et Pallida Mors in patronicum meum sunt
Well we are kind of using a different meaning of reason, i was talking more in terms of purpose but you also raise a valid point.
Protector Domesticus
So what makes you think that cause/effects are decieving? You really think that our mind has evolved to see things that aren't really there or aren't really in existence. If reasons and cause/effect are illusions, everything that we know could be illusions by your standards.Originally Posted by Squeakus Maximus
Mr Common Sense
Actually, I'm not sure we are, wholly. I am talking both about reason as in logic, and reasons as in causes. The first means we try to discern the second.
primus pater cunobelin erat; sum in patronicium imb39, domi wilpuri; Saint-Germain, MasterAdnin, Pnutmaster, Scorch, Blau&Gruen,
Ferrets54, Honeohvovohaestse, et Pallida Mors in patronicum meum sunt
did you ever wonder if there was another big bang, and that the universe created by that big bang will someday colide with ours and cause some lage scale destruction.
Ill give you a signature you wont soon forget...
Ive never considered that but i actually spend quite a bit of time thinking about this issue, its really fascinating to consider the possibilities. I find it unlikely for that to happen though because it would be just too much of a coincidence but then again that could be exactly what suggests its possibility. I have such a desire to answer a lot of these questions but unfortunately i'll be dead long before most of these things are possible to answer.
Domesticus
No, but I do believe there migth have been big bangs before 'this' one. One theory I heard is that first comes the big bang, then universe expands then after a looooooong time it starts to shrink again, and it all returns to the same spot where it started from...then it explodes again.
lol
I think if the universe was drifting in a certain direction they'd notice.
Mr Common Sense
How would you get two Big Bangs within one universe? parallel universes cannot interact with ours, and alternate universes... well, see parallel ones. How would that work? A universe within a universe, an intriguing idea.
primus pater cunobelin erat; sum in patronicium imb39, domi wilpuri; Saint-Germain, MasterAdnin, Pnutmaster, Scorch, Blau&Gruen,
Ferrets54, Honeohvovohaestse, et Pallida Mors in patronicum meum sunt
Mr Common Sense
To test that theory, which is my own favourite, we would have to use the Hubble Constant; if the universal expansion is acclerating at a set rate or above, it will expnd infinitely, and if not, then eventually it will collapse. of course, we cannot measure this acceleration, but we at least know how to test it if we ever work out a way.
primus pater cunobelin erat; sum in patronicium imb39, domi wilpuri; Saint-Germain, MasterAdnin, Pnutmaster, Scorch, Blau&Gruen,
Ferrets54, Honeohvovohaestse, et Pallida Mors in patronicum meum sunt
Ducenarius
The last I've heard is that the Universal exspansion is not slowing down and that scientist cannot find or account for enough matter in the universe that would stop the expansion.
So far it looks like the universe will expand until it cools down and dies, but things like this always change as more information is found or deciphered. All very interesting none the less.
Semper Fi
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John Bernard Books
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Tiro
THE BIG BANG
One of the most persistently asked questions has been: How was the universe created? Many once believed that the universe had no beginning or end and was truly infinite. Through the inception of the Big Bang theory, however,no longer could the universe be considered infinite. The universe was forced to take on the properties of a finite phenomenon, possessing a history and a beginning.
About 15 billion years ago a tremendous explosion started the expansion of the universe. This explosion is known as the Big Bang. At the point of this event all of the matter and energy of space was contained at one point. What exisisted prior to this event is completely unknown and is a matter of pure speculation. This occurance was not a conventional explosion but rather an event filling all of space with all of the particles of the embryonic universe rushing away from each other. The Big Bang actually consisted of an explosion of space within itself unlike an explosion of a bomb were fragments are thrown outward. The galaxies were not all clumped together, but rather the Big Bang lay the foundations for the universe.
The origin of the Big Bang theory can be credited to Edwin Hubble. Hubble made the observation that the universe is continuously expanding. He discovered that a galaxys velocity is proportional to its distance. Galaxies that are twice as far from us move twice as fast. Another consequence is that the universe is expanding in every direction. This observation means that it has taken every galaxy the same amount of time to move from a common starting position to its current position. Just as the Big Bang provided for the foundation of the universe, Hubbles observations provided for the foundation of the Big Bang theory.
Since the Big Bang, the universe has been continuously expanding and, thus, there has been more and more distance between clusters of galaxies. This phenomenon of galaxies moving farther away from each other is known as the red shift. As light from distant galaxies approach earth there is an increase of space between earth and the galaxy, which leads to wavelengths being stretched.
In addition to the understanding of the velocity of galaxies emanating from a single point, there is further evidence for the Big Bang. In 1964, two astronomers, Arno Penzias and Robert Wilson, in an attempt to detect microwaves from outer space, inadvertently discovered a noise of extraterrestrial origin. The noise did not seem to emanate from one location but instead, it came from all directions at once. It became obvious that what they heard was radiation from the farthest reaches of the universe which had been left over from the Big Bang. This discovery of the radioactive aftermath of the initial explosion lent much credence to the Big Bang theory.
Even more recently, NASAs COBE satellite was able to detect cosmic microwaves eminating from the outer reaches of the universe. These microwaves were remarkably uniform which illustrated the homogenity of the early stages of the universe. However, the satillite also discovered that as the universe began to cool and was still expanding, small fluctuations began to exist due to temperature differences. These flucuatuations verified prior calculations of the possible cooling and development of the universe just fractions of a second after its creation. These fluctuations in the universe provided a more detailed description of the first moments after the Big Bang. They also helped to tell the story of the formation of galaxies which will be discussed in the next chapter.
The Big Bang theory provides a viable solution to one of the most pressing questions of all time. It is important to understand, however, that the theory itself is constantly being revised. As more observations are made and more research conducted, the Big Bang theory becomes more complete and our knowledge of the origins of the universe more substantial.
THE FIRST ATOMS
Now that an attempt has been made to grapple with the theory of the Big Bang, the next logical question to ask would be what happened afterward? In the minuscule fractions of the first second after creation what was once a complete vacuum began to evolve into what we now know as the universe. In the very beginning there was nothing except for a plasma soup. What is known of these brief moments in time, at the start of our study of cosmology, is largely conjectural. However, science has devised some sketch of what probably happened, based on what is known about the universe today.
Immediately after the Big Bang, as one might imagine, the universe was tremendously hot as a result of particles of both matter and antimatter rushing apart in all directions. As it began to cool, at around 10^-43 seconds after creation, there existed an almost equal yet asymmetrical amount of matter and antimatter. As these two materials are created together, they collide and destroy one another creating pure energy. Fortunately for us, there was an asymmetry in favor of matter. As a direct result of an excess of about one part per billion, the universe was able to mature in a way favorable for matter to persist. As the universe first began to expand, this discrepancy grew larger. The particles which began to dominate were those of matter. They were created and they decayed without the accompaniment of an equal creation or decay of an antiparticle.
As the universe expanded further, and thus cooled, common particles began to form. These particles are called baryons and include photons, neutrinos, electrons and quarks would become the building blocks of matter and life as we know it. During the baryon genesis period there were no recognizable heavy particles such as protons or neutrons because of the still intense heat. At this moment, there was only a quark soup. As the universe began to cool and expand even more, we begin to understand more clearly what exactly happened.
After the universe had cooled to about 3000 billion degrees Kelvin, a radical transition began which has been likened to the phase transition of water turning to ice. Composite particles such as protons and neutrons, called hadrons, became the common state of matter after this transition. Still, no matter more complex could form at these temperatures. Although lighter particles, called leptons, also existed, they were prohibited from reacting with the hadrons to form more complex states of matter. These leptons, which include electrons, neutrinos and photons, would soon be able to join their hadron kin in a union that would define present-day common matter.
After about one to three minutes had passed since the creation of the universe, protons and neutrons began to react with each other to form deuterium, an isotope of hydrogen. Deuterium, or heavy hydrogen, soon collected another neutron to form tritium. Rapidly following this reaction was the addition of another proton which produced a helium nucleus. Scientists believe that there was one helium nucleus for every ten protons within the first three minutes of the universe. After further cooling, these excess protons would be able to capture an electron to create common hydrogen. Consequently, the universe today is observed to contain one helium atom for every ten or eleven atoms of hydrogen.
While it is true that much of this information is speculative, as the universe ages we are able to become increasingly confident in our knowledge of its history. By studying the way in which the universe exists today it is possible to learn a great deal about its past. Much effort has gone into understanding the formation and number of baryons present today. Through finding answers to these modern questions, it is possible to trace their role in the universe back to the Big Bang. Subsequently, by studying the formation of simple atoms in the laboratory we can make some educated guesses as to how they formed originally. Only through further research and discovery will it be possible to completely understand the creation of the universe and its first atomic structures, however, maybe we will never know for sure.
Does this ansewer the question of the Big Bang?
Last edited by PM Trajan For Name Change; July 12, 2005 at 11:58 AM.
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Tiro
I heard it was the catholic church actually, or someone within it, I think his name was George Lemaitre in 1927, that first suggested the idea. Hubble hadn't heard of his already suggested theory but took credit for it.
Last edited by Aaron88; July 12, 2005 at 07:30 PM.
♊
OK, so where'd all that matter and energy come from? Why was it there?At the point of this event all of the matter and energy of space was contained at one point. What exisisted prior to this event is completely unknown and is a matter of pure speculation.
Thats what no one knows, perhaps there was a big crunch before it. A big crunch makes the most sense to me.
♊
OK, nobody knows why that ball of matter is there, so why do people say the Big Bang is conclusive proof there is no God when nobody can answer what that stuff is doing there in the first place?
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