View Poll Results: Which is your favourite "gunpowder empire"

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  • Mughals

    21 29.58%
  • Ottomans

    42 59.15%
  • Safavids

    6 8.45%
  • Unsure

    2 2.82%
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Thread: Which is your favourite "gunpowder empire"

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  1. #1
    Babur's Avatar ز آفتاب درخشان ستاره می
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    Default Which is your favourite "gunpowder empire"

    Gunpowder empires is a term coined to refer to the Mughals,Ottomans and Safavids of Early Modern times.

    MUGHAL EMPIRE

    The Mughals were Persianised Turko-Mongols descended from both Chaghatai Khan,son of Genghis Khan and Miranshah son of Amir Timur Gurgan, . Mughal India comprised most of modern-day Pakistan, northern India, and Bangladesh.
    The three towering figures in Mughal India were its founder, Babur (1526-1530) and Akbar the Great (1556-1605), who consolidated the empire and was a liberal rule and Shah Jahan (1628-1658) who built the beautiful Taj Mahal and Red Fort
    Babur was half-Turk, half-Mongol, and was descended from Amir Timur via his father,Umar Sheikh Mirza. At 11, he inherited an unstable central Asian kingdom in Andizhan in Ferghana (present day Uzbekistan). He was an exceptional leader who, with the use of new gunpowder technology, took most of North India by the end of his lifetime.
    The Mughals firmly established their empire in northern India during the 16th century under the direction of Akbar the Great (r. 1556-1605), Babur’s grandson. Akbar completely reorganized the central and provincial governments and rationalized the tax system which he built upon the work of Sher Shah Suri. Under his leadership, the Mughal Empire became a true Indian empire.
    Akbar was a religiously eclectic, open-minded man, who showed tolerance to all faiths. He never learned to read himself but surrounded himself with learned scholars and books. He was a pacifier and conciliator, married Hindu women, gave Hindus equal rights in his empire, and placed them in high administrative positions. He also tried to institute other social reforms to liberate women from the harem isolation, and to stop child marriages. He provided India with its 1st strong centralized leadership since the Guptas 1,000 years before. He invited members of all religions to come and debate in his presence, and designed his own religion, which was a mixture of Muslim and Hindu. He hoped to bring the two main religions closer together to help unite India, but did not force religious beliefs on anyone, and respected both Hindu temples and Islamic mosques. His efforts were appreciated by Hindus, and viewed suspiciously by Muslims, but he converted no one to his new religious admixture.
    The 17th century was the golden age of Mughal culture, especially in architecture and painting. The Mughal Empire eventually saw a general political decline, however, due to the burdens of new building projects such as the Taj Mahal, a giant mausoleum for a ruler’s favorite empress; military campaigns, and the erosion of Akbar’s administrative and tax reforms. Religious intolerance and subsequent infighting also contributed to the decline. The dominance of the British East India Company had utterly eclipsed Mughal power by 1819, although the dynasty officially ended only in 1858.





    Babur:









    Akbar











    Shah Jahan:


















    OTTOMANS

    The Ottomans were a Turkish dynasty, which started out on the borders of a declining Byzantine Empire. Founder, Osman I, rose to prominence in the 14th century, as a ghazi or fighting lord. He won many victories and picked up numerous followers while repeatedly raiding what was left of the Byzantine Empire. Almost the only thing left of the Byzantine Empire was the fortified city of Constantinople itself, surrounded by huge walls. It took the Ottomans 153 years to take Constantinople. The Ottomans first conquered all the Byzantine territory outside the city on both sides, and then in the 1450s moved against the city itself.
    Led by Mehmet II, the Ottomans knocked down Constantinople's walls with the biggest cannons ever seen. The 80th Byzantine Emperor died fighting on the walls, and the city fell.
    Under Mehmet and his early successors, the Ottoman Empire spread into other parts of Europe. They used the new technology of gunpowder and artillery to devastating effect.
    The greatest Ottoman leader, Suleiman the Magnificent, was born at peak of Ottoman power in the early 16th century. He ruled from 1520-1566. Under him, the Ottomans became a world power. They absorbed new territories in Europe, Africa and Asia, and dominated the Muslim world.
    By the 1540s, Ottoman military might was unmatched by any state in the world (with the possible exception of China). Their empire extended over Egypt, Anatolia, South-East Europe, Syria-Palestine, most of North Africa, western Arabia, Mesopotamia,Syria,Jordan,Lebanon and Palestine. The state was held together by a strong hereditary sovereign, and a strong military organization.
    Ottoman power began to decline after the reign of Selim II. This was due to military corruption, governmental decentralization, maritime setbacks, commercial and agricultural failures, and cultural and religious stagnation. After 1683, the Ottomans were driven out of Hungary and never again posed a serious threat to Europe. By 1774, the Ottoman Empire became a weak and crumbling empire, which staggered along until its eventual fall in 1918, in the wake of W.W.I.





    Osman I




    Mehmet II:











    Suleiman the Magnificent:









    SAFAVID EMPIRE

    The Safavid Empire was east of the Ottomans and west of the Mughals (from 1526 onwards). The Persians, their core population, had experienced 2,000 years of rule under various empires by 1500. The area had become Muslim in the 7th century, and was in many ways the cultural heart of the Islamic world. Persia had been ruled by outsiders or politically fragmented for centuries when in 1500 the Safavids, a Persian Shi’ite group, seized power under the leadership of their 13-year-old leader Shah Ishmail I (1500-1524).
    The Shi’ites and Sunnis were a long-standing division in Islamic world, which would get worse under influence of these two rival empires. Shi’ite Muslims rejected the traditional Islamic leadership, which traces its succession back to the caliphs, the acknowledged successors of Mohammed. Shi’ites insisted that only someone directly related to Mohammed could be the head of the Islamic world. Such a real leader would be an imam, a spiritual leader, rather than merely a secular leader.
    The Shi’ites were a religious minority in the Islamic world, and had been persecuted for centuries until they gained a homeland in the Safavid Empire. The religious division drove a wedge into the heart of the Islamic world. The Safavid Empire was surrounded on all sides by Sunni Islamic powers. Shi’ite Persia was full of religious zeal, and stirred up the Shi’ite minorities of other lands. This resulted in a period comparable to the Christian wars of religion, in which both the Ottomans and the Safavids destroyed large numbers of minority religions in their areas, and the two armies fought repeatedly throughout the century.
    In the early days, the Ottomans generally won such as in Chaldiran. They were better prepared, with better artillery. Around 1600, however, the Safavids got a capable leader.
    Shah Abbas I (1587-1629) was the greatest of all the Safavid leaders. He came to the throne at 17, and ruled for over 40 years, presiding over one of Persia’s golden ages.
    Abbas replaced the army of religious enthusiasts with an army of paid soldiers trained in the Western European manner, and got cannons from the English as well. Under his reign, the Safavids finally pushed the Ottomans out of their Western lands.
    Abbas streamlined the Safavid administration along Western lines, received European traders, and opened diplomatic negotiations with the West. Abbas also poured money into infrastructure — he built roads, canals, and shrines and improved pilgrimage roads to stimulate pilgrimages through his territories. During the four decades of his rule, the Safavids were prosperous and Persian culture flourished and he made Isfahan a great city once again which he adorned as his capital.
    Ottoman pressure eventually forced the Safavids eastward. After 1722, the empire gradually declined because of Ottoman and Afghanistan pressures, economic decline in the empire as a whole, and the increasing religious intolerance of the more conservative Shi’ites. The lasting legacies of Safavid rule were the firmly established Shi’ite character of the whole Iranian region, and the Persian culture that was established under their patronage in literature, theology, philosophy, painting, and architecture.



    Shah Abbas The Great:


















    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 




    now let's see






    Last edited by Babur; August 18, 2009 at 02:51 PM.
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  2. #2
    Semisalis
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    Default Re: Which is your favourite "gunpowder empire"

    Fortunately, it's not the most powerful, impressive, largest etc and it's just the favorite. So I can easily choose my country. Safavids as Iran.

    However, they were good to bring power to Iran again but it always sadden me that they spread extremist Islam in Iran.

  3. #3
    nopasties's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Which is your favourite "gunpowder empire"

    Favorite city is Istanbul/Constantnople but the Mughals are a more interesting empire.

    beautiful pics

  4. #4
    Babur's Avatar ز آفتاب درخشان ستاره می
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    Default Re: Which is your favourite "gunpowder empire"

    Quote Originally Posted by DashSia View Post
    Fortunately, it's not the most powerful, impressive, largest etc and it's just the favorite. So I can easily choose my country. Safavids as Iran.
    I understand you man, the architecture in Esfahan looks amazing, I need to see it if I want to see the other half of the world :

    Esfahan nesfe-e-jahan ast!

    (Esfahan is half the world)

    However, they were good to bring power to Iran again but it always sadden me that they spread extremist Islam in Iran.
    yuh after centuries of foreign domination and initially they were quite weak but under Shah Abbas I,they grew to be a great power.

    yes it is rather unfortunate however that they established the present power of clerics which continues to this day

    Quote Originally Posted by nopasties View Post
    Favorite city is Istanbul/Constantnople but the Mughals are a more interesting empire.
    I want to visit Istanbul as well as Isfahan

    yuh well I voted for the Mughals naturally because I am from Delhi but also because I feel indebted to them for much of my cultural heritage and of course adorning my home city with simply stunning architecture.
    beautiful pics
    thanks

    the picture of the Jama Masjid and Red Fort are pics I took in December

    the picture of the Masjed-e-Shah was taken by a friend of mine on TWC,Eranshahr, I wish to thank him .
    Last edited by Babur; August 18, 2009 at 06:55 AM.
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  5. #5
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    Default Re: Which is your favourite "gunpowder empire"

    Quote Originally Posted by Chinggis Khan View Post
    yes it is rather unfortunate however that they established the present power of clerics which continues to this day
    I'm pretty sure that mullahs were not ruling Iran if Safavids didn't exist. But at the other hand, maybe Iran doesn't exist today if Safavids didn't exist?

  6. #6

    Default Re: Which is your favourite "gunpowder empire"

    It is simple; Ottomans. One name ; Big bombard.
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  7. #7
    Babur's Avatar ز آفتاب درخشان ستاره می
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    Default Re: Which is your favourite "gunpowder empire"

    Quote Originally Posted by DashSia View Post
    I'm pretty sure that mullahs were not ruling Iran if Safavids didn't exist. But at the other hand, maybe Iran doesn't exist today if Safavids didn't exist?
    yuh it's wierd that

    but I guess Shah Ismail wanted Iran to be unique religiously from the Ottomans in the West?

    Quote Originally Posted by white-wolf View Post
    It is simple; Ottomans. One name ; Big bombard.
    you mean this



    Quote Originally Posted by master412160 View Post
    Nice read and very interesting, + rep for your hard work.

    I think all 3 are massive empires in History, and 2 of them fall because of the Western people. First the OTTOMANS have lost all or most of there territory because the choose the wrong side in WWI. Second the MUGHAL EMPIRE seized to exist because again Western people, the British becoming an empire had taken over India but not for so long. After some time, India became independent.

    Edit: my vote goes to the Ottomans because they have controled a very big empire, indeed the empire in India was big to. But the Ottomans had more enemies around them, different cultures.
    thanks

    well the Safavids collapsed because of the Afghans

    I understand man, the Ottomans also inherited the Caliphate after their conquest of the Mamlukes who had protected the last Abbasid Caliphs in Cairo since 1258.
    Last edited by God-Emperor of Mankind; August 18, 2009 at 07:40 AM. Reason: just spring cleaning
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  8. #8
    nopasties's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Which is your favourite "gunpowder empire"

    Quote Originally Posted by Chinggis Khan View Post
    yuh it's wierd that

    but I guess Shah Ismail wanted Iran to be unique religiously from the Ottomans in the West?



    you mean this

    Which one is bigger though? Jaigarh fort

  9. #9
    Babur's Avatar ز آفتاب درخشان ستاره می
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    Default Re: Which is your favourite "gunpowder empire"

    Quote Originally Posted by nopasties View Post
    Which one is bigger though? Jaigarh fort
    well that is the largest wheeled cannon and is equally awesome

    but during Shah Jahan's reign when he wanted to retake the historical Timurid lands of Transoxania and to take Qandahar from the Safavids he made special cannons for this purpose,he failed however since the defenders were very stubborn .
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  10. #10

    Default Re: Which is your favourite "gunpowder empire"

    Ottoman Empire. Mehmed II the Conqueror transformed artillery in a devastating weapon even in the case of a defeat such as Rhodes 1480. Bayezid II used with the same success artillery in his campaign against Moldavia (1484), when he conquered Lycostomo and Moncastro and than in the war against Venice (1499-1503), when he occupied almost all Venetian posessions in Peloponesus.
    The impact of artillery and gunpowder was also decisive in the battle of Caldiran (1514) when Selim the Grim thansformed a desperate situation in a great victory against then Safavids. Two years later again the artillery played a great part at Marj Dabiq victory wich opened to Selim the way for the conquest of Syria, Palestine and Egypt.



  11. #11

    Default Re: Which is your favourite "gunpowder empire"

    Quote Originally Posted by Chinggis Khan View Post
    you mean this


    Well, it seems a later-era bombard. I can be wrong, though. I think original ones even bigger.
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  12. #12
    Babur's Avatar ز آفتاب درخشان ستاره می
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    Default Re: Which is your favourite "gunpowder empire"

    Quote Originally Posted by white-wolf View Post
    Well, it seems a later-era bombard. I can be wrong, though. I think original ones even bigger.
    where is that kept btw?

    it looks awesome

    wasn't it a Hungarian who forged the cannon that defeated the walls of Constantinople?
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  13. #13
    nopasties's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Which is your favourite "gunpowder empire"

    Quote Originally Posted by Chinggis Khan View Post
    wasn't it a Hungarian who forged the cannon that defeated the walls of Constantinople?
    The Dardanelles Gun was cast in bronze in 1464 by Munir Ali with a weight of 18.6 t and a length of 518 cm, being capable of firing stone balls of up to 63 cm diameter.[2] The powder chamber and the barrel are connected by the way of a screw mechanism, allowing easier transport of the unwieldy device. Such super-sized bombards had been employed in Western Europe siege warfare since the beginning of the 15th century,[5] and were introduced to the Ottoman army in 1453 by the Hungarian gunfounder Orban on the occasion of the Siege of Constantinople.[6] Ali's piece is assumed to have followed closely the outline of these guns.[6]
    Along with a number of other huge cannon, the Dardanelles Gun was still present for duty more than 300 years later in 1807, when a Royal Navy force appeared and commenced the Dardanelles Operation. Turkish forces loaded the ancient relics with propellant and projectiles, then fired them at the British ships. The British squadron suffered 28 dead through this bombardment.[7]
    In 1866, on the occasion of a state visit, Sultan Abdülâziz gave the Dardanelles Gun to Queen Victoria as a present.[8] It became a part of the Royal Armouries collection and was displayed to visitors at the Tower of London and was then moved to Fort Nelson at Portsmouth.[9]

    Also reffered to The Royal Gun

    The Jai Ban Cannon had 10x the range though

  14. #14

    Default Re: Which is your favourite "gunpowder empire"

    Nice read and very interesting, + rep for your hard work.

    I think all 3 are massive empires in History, and 2 of them fall because of the Western people. First the OTTOMANS have lost all or most of there territory because the choose the wrong side in WWI. Second the MUGHAL EMPIRE seized to exist because again Western people, the British becoming an empire had taken over India but not for so long. After some time, India became independent.

    Edit: my vote goes to the Ottomans because they have controled a very big empire, indeed the empire in India was big to. But the Ottomans had more enemies around them, different cultures.
    Last edited by webMaster412160; August 18, 2009 at 07:04 AM.
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  15. #15

    Default Re: Which is your favourite "gunpowder empire"

    Wow thats massive! Did they use that to blow down the walls of the capital of the Byzantine empire ?
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  16. #16
    Babur's Avatar ز آفتاب درخشان ستاره می
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    Default Re: Which is your favourite "gunpowder empire"

    Quote Originally Posted by master412160 View Post
    Wow thats massive! Did they use that to blow down the walls of the capital of the Byzantine empire ?
    well whitewolf knows better than me if that is the bombard which was used but that looks awesome (I wouldn't mind one of those )

    Quote Originally Posted by nopasties View Post
    Thx. We will PM you next time for approval on all future topics. How much of a forwarning do you need? Do you want the proposal in double spaced paragraphs or single space paragraphs?
    he is unhappy that Russia isn't in the poll
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  17. #17

    Default Re: Which is your favourite "gunpowder empire"

    I think you would be deaf if you stand near one of those cannons when they go of!
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  18. #18
    Babur's Avatar ز آفتاب درخشان ستاره می
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    Default Re: Which is your favourite "gunpowder empire"

    Quote Originally Posted by master412160 View Post
    I think you would be deaf if you stand near one of those cannons when they go of!
    yuh lol

    Quote Originally Posted by Carach View Post
    Mughals for me. their name is the coolest, i know only the basics about the empires in the poll so the sound of the name is essential in formulating an opinion

    they made some pretty cool landmarks too, and i cant, as a european, bring myself to support the Ottomans.
    lol,well doesn't my post give the basics?

    yuh but I thought the Ottomans weren't bad either

    Quote Originally Posted by nopasties View Post

    Also reffered to The Royal Gun

    The Jai Ban Cannon had 10x the range though

    reminds me of the Monster Bombard in M2TW

    Quote Originally Posted by hindov View Post
    Ottoman Empire. Mehmed II the Conqueror transformed artillery in a devastating weapon even in the case of a defeat such as Rhodes 1480. Bayezid II used with the same success artillery in his campaign against Moldavia (1484), when he conquered Lycostomo and Moncastro and than in the war against Venice (1499-1503), when he occupied almost all Venetian posessions in Peloponesus.
    The impact of artillery and gunpowder was also decisive in the battle of Caldiran (1514) when Selim the Grim thansformed a desperate situation in a great victory against then Safavids. Two years later again the artillery played a great part at Marj Dabiq victory wich opened to Selim the way for the conquest of Syria, Palestine and Egypt.
    I read that the Mamlukes begged the Ottomans not to use their artillery

    Quote Originally Posted by Salem1 View Post
    Why the Ottomans of course, even if they miserably screwed up their chance of crushing Russia. They're the ''bad guys'' viewed from the perspective of nations like Austria and Hungary, which creates an atmosphere when you read about the Balkan wars, that other wars usually don't provide. And the Ottomans themselves I would guess regarded themselves as ''liberating'' their further conquests. Quite cool really.
    They also had to maintain a large, spread out, multicultural state with other problems too that came with time. I think that's quite impressive, considering that the external pressure was mostly big, causing the empire to crumble in the end. Nevertheless this empire was bound to collapse as long as the borders could not be properly stabilised, which didn't happen. I also don't get why Ottomans never expanded into East Africa, from there not only would they have East Africa but they could then possibly expand down to the cape by land. Overall, I think the Ottomans made the mistakes of focusing too little on Russia, especially when they had their best chance (Great Northern War). The other mistake was not to expand into East Africa, the East Indies, Bengal and Ceylon (I don't remember where, but I remember having read that Bengal had very good gunpowder which the British took advantage of - otherwise discard Bengal).
    I agree that Russia proved to be a great annoyance to the Ottomans.Russia encourage her fellow Orthodox Christians to rise up against Ottoman rule during the 19th Century.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nikos View Post
    The Ottomans for sure, they conquered the greatest city in Europe and made the rest of Europe tremble.
    yuh the Pope was genuinely frightened of their advance into Europe during the 16th Century.

    Quote Originally Posted by nopasties View Post
    Google book on Ottoman artillery
    http://books.google.com/books?id=dNq...inople&f=false

    the cannons used on byzantine constantinople
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    nice link

    Quote Originally Posted by Del Valle View Post
    Iran is my favorite state in history, so I chose the Safavids. However, I've always disagreed greatly with them being classed as a gunpowder empire. The only major use of gunpowder was done under the rule of Shah Abbas. The true power of the Safavid was always their fierce Turkish cavalry, the Qezelbash, who were fanatics in their Islamic beliefs. Another point I'd like to make is that the Safavids weren't a Persian Shiite group, as you said in your description, but a Turkish tribe from Azerbaijan. Overall, though the description was quite accurate and it's good to see another person with an interest in the Safavids.
    The Safavids were heavily Persianised who originally started out as Sufis .In fact Muhammed Shayban Khan would make fun of this by sending a Sufi begging bowl and saying that Shah Ismail should return to the lifestyle of his ancestors and hand over his lands to the house of Genghis Khan.

    Quote Originally Posted by C-Rob View Post
    ottomans, because they have a piece of furniture named after them!
    lol

    Quote Originally Posted by Aetius View Post
    The Ottomans?
    Quote Originally Posted by DashSia View Post
    Actually, they were persianized Azeris.
    yuh they were very much so

    Yes, I sometimes think of that. Maybe they just choose Shiite to be different from Arabs and Ottomans. You know, Persians (and of course persianized tribes) don't like to be gottem mistaken with other cultures.
    well I can understand that since Iran was properly independent for the first time in more than 1000 years.
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  19. #19
    Carach's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: Which is your favourite "gunpowder empire"

    Quote Originally Posted by Chinggis Khan View Post
    lol,well doesn't my post give the basics?

    yuh but I thought the Ottomans weren't bad either
    ottomans are part of the enemy to european civilization back in the day, cant support such a group in these polls

  20. #20
    Babur's Avatar ز آفتاب درخشان ستاره می
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    Default Re: Which is your favourite "gunpowder empire"

    Quote Originally Posted by Carach View Post
    ottomans are part of the enemy to european civilization back in the day, cant support such a group in these polls
    lolwut? but their enemies were Russia you know!
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