"She comes to Kenya to promote democracy, can she do it in Egypt or Saudi Arabia?"

[Tajir]

I was watching Fareed Zakaria--who--in short, pisses me off with his big teeth and his small brain. But as I was watching his piece on Hillary Clinton's recent visit to Kenya to meet many African leaders about stabilization and making the democratic process smoother in the continent, one guy caught her off guard.

Raila Odinga, as you remember from the Kenyan election riots, said, "The West shouldn't interfere in African democracy, we'll discuss it among ourselves...[blah blah blah]...even American elections aren't perfect as with Florida in 2000...[blah blah blah]..."

He then says along the lines, "Its the principle that matters. Can any American diplomat say to Egypt, Jordan, or Saudi Arabia what Hillary has just spent the past week doing here in Nairobi?"

---

What's your take on this?

[Exarch]

well i reckon you're right about fareed rakaria; he pisses me off too with his eating grin-i feel a desire to kerb stomp him for the skidmark known as NEWSWEEK...

but that aside

the west has and will continue to interfere with efrica, why?
because
1) gold and diamonds and OIL!!
2) Gets to make the hypocritical eaters at home feel morally superior by giving $24.15 in charity to a starving kid
3) rant on about how morally superior they are in denying aid to people of 'despotic regimes'
4) about other countries that do business with said countries

[Burnum]

well i reckon you're right about fareed rakaria; he pisses me off too with his eating grin-i feel a desire to kerb stomp him for the skidmark known as NEWSWEEK...

but that aside

the west has and will continue to interfere with efrica, why?
because
1) gold and diamonds and OIL!!
2) Gets to make the hypocritical eaters at home feel morally superior by giving $24.15 in charity to a starving kid
3) rant on about how morally superior they are in denying aid to people of 'despotic regimes'
4) about other countries that do business with said countries

China exploits Africa, far more then the west now. They're also mostly responsible for the inaction over Dafur.

[Nouvelle Vague]

No because particularly in the case of Saudi Arabia they're so entrenched in the US economy and trade. This would obviously put some pressure on whether this continues on its current path or not.

[roy34543]

Fareed Zakaria? the arrogant editor of newsweek?
i also dislike him. He has some political opinions that not only piss me off, But he made that magazine be much more uninteresting to read .
His opinions on the palestinian Israeli conflict piss me off the msot , So he feels that the magazine should run a story once every 2 weeks about how much he hates the Israelis and how he thinks the palestinians are morons for no decipherable reason? (hyperbole btw, but i thnk you get the idea) and apart from that he just cant decide what to think, one day he supports invading Iraq, the next he doesnt.
But on topic , i believe africa is one of those countries that has problems and understands it has problems, but doesnt do much about it, Saud arabia and jordan etc, Dont beleive they have problems in the first place.

[Phier]

But on topic , i believe africa is one of those countries continents that has problems and understands it has problems, but doesnt do much about it, Saud arabia and jordan etc, Dont beleive they have problems in the first place.

Lets just assume that was a typo before the horde has their way with you

[Tajir]

Hmm, I dont know why this was moved to Mudpit, I intended for a wider dissection of this aspect of American foreign policy.

I must say, ME dictatorships are my checkmate move whenever I get into a debate about American foreign policy, I hope it continues the way it is, my intellectual street cred has an ugly secret weapon.

[A pimp named Slickback]

Fareed Zakaria? the arrogant editor of newsweek?
i also dislike him. He has some political opinions that not only piss me off, But he made that magazine be much more uninteresting to read .
His opinions on the palestinian Israeli conflict piss me off the msot , So he feels that the magazine should run a story once every 2 weeks about how much he hates the Israelis and how he thinks the palestinians are morons for no decipherable reason? (hyperbole btw, but i thnk you get the idea) and apart from that he just cant decide what to think, one day he supports invading Iraq, the next he doesnt.
But on topic , i believe africa is one of those countries that has problems and understands it has problems, but doesnt do much about it, Saud arabia and jordan etc, Dont beleive they have problems in the first place.

Fareed Zakaria is brilliant. He's not interested in being a hack for any given 'side' but just providing piercing insight into the situations. He just cares about being intelligent and rational about the issues instead of playing games.

[roy34543]

Yeah i apologize. Im tired. It was a typo. Though south africa is technically included.

[Major.Stupidity]

I was watching Fareed Zakaria--who--in short, pisses me off with his big teeth and his small brain. But as I was watching his piece on Hillary Clinton's recent visit to Kenya to meet many African leaders about stabilization and making the democratic process smoother in the continent, one guy caught her off guard.

Raila Odinga, as you remember from the Kenyan election riots, said, "The West shouldn't interfere in African democracy, we'll discuss it among ourselves...[blah blah blah]...even American elections aren't perfect as with Florida in 2000...[blah blah blah]..."

He then says along the lines, "Its the principle that matters. Can any American diplomat say to Egypt, Jordan, or Saudi Arabia what Hillary has just spent the past week doing here in Nairobi?"

---

What's your take on this?

This was exactly my point when everyone was in bleeding heart liberal mode over Iran. Would they support democracy in Saudi Arabia, Jordan, or Egypt? The answer is a negative.

[Trey]

He then says along the lines, "Its the principle that matters. Can any American diplomat say to Egypt, Jordan, or Saudi Arabia what Hillary has just spent the past week doing here in Nairobi?"

---

What's your take on this?

No, she can't. Not seriously anyway. And it's . They despots and the religious conservatives will cover themselves saying "oh it's not in our culture to have a democracy or for women to have equal rights etc.". Well guess what, if you look at history those things are in almost no ones culture! Terrible excuse, but I guess torture and political repression happen to be part of it, the hypocrites.

But no, that sad fact is we don't call out the Saudis, our enemies, or Egypt or anyone else for that fact. I laughed at the irony of Obama's speech being held in Cairo, with that fool Mubarak. He seems to have given up though, stressing respect over freedom. Maybe it's the pragmatic thing to do. It's sad nonetheless.

@Exarch
The west utilizing African resources and meddling in the continent in general? See China.

As a sidenote, democracy will come when people are ready to make the sacrifice. Change has to come within, from the people. Yes, we hinder democratic opposition in Arab states with our support for regimes, but even the people in Iran have shown a greater desire.

[0N3]

But no, that sad fact is we don't call out the Saudis, our enemies, or Egypt or anyone else for that fact. I laughed at the irony of Obama's speech being held in Cairo, with that fool Mubarak. He seems to have given up though, stressing respect over freedom. Maybe it's the pragmatic thing to do. It's sad nonetheless.

Dont say no 'bout Egypt, yo! Anyways, Africa just need a new Thomas Sankara

[Trey]

Dont say no 'bout Egypt, yo! Anyways, Africa just need a new Thomas Sankara

Egypt as a political entity is Hosni Mubarak.

[BlackPirate]

NO.If for example Egypt had fair democracy then Muslim Brotherhood would come to power through elections.In that case its for our interest not to have criticism against those regimes.We use the words "democracy" "human rights" etc only when our interests calling it.Right?

[A pimp named Slickback]

NO.If for example Egypt had fair democracy then Muslim Brotherhood would come to power through elections.In that case its for our interest not to have criticism against those regimes.We use the words "democracy" "human rights" etc only when our interests calling it.Right?

Thats pretty much right. Bro.

[roy34543]

Fareed Zakaria is brilliant. He's not interested in being a hack for any given 'side' but just providing piercing insight into the situations. He just cares about being intelligent and rational about the issues instead of playing games

To me that basically translates as he changes his opinions on subjects every 30 seconds. yeah hes not interested in any side, thats true, Hes interested in what gets him the most readers and makes his magazine look spiffy with a good headline. pragmatic maybe, But not the kind of magazine id be proud of editing , and a magazine that will probably fail as soon as the popular public will do a 180 on yet another issue.

[Tajir]

Fareed Zakaria is a moron. Just last night I listened to him ramble on about Cuba's shortage of toilet paper and literally used that single premise to rag on the entire country for that entire segment. Toilet paper, c'mon man! There are countries with much worse shortages than toilet paper.

Anyway, back to topic. Seems unlikely in the next 100 years we'll see the D word dropped in Egypt or KSA.

And as for those who say the Saudis will reject it - well, its not like the US cares to listen when the Taliban or Mehdi army reject such notions.

The only legit [militarily-limited] democracy in the ME (even to the slightest extent) is the Pali territories, and we all know what we thought of their elections when it went against our ally's favor.

[Trey]

The only legit [militarily-limited] democracy in the ME (even to the slightest extent) is the Pali territories, and we all know what we thought of their elections when it went against our ally's favor.

You mean Arab states, or ME?

[antares24]

imho Zakaria is a smart and interesting analist and journalist. He sometimes gets things wrong but still do a good job. The same with Newsweek as a whole.

As for exporting democracy, that. Democracy can work only if certain conditions are present, and for sure it can't be exported with guns, as Bush and his moronic administration believed. Much better to have countries arrive indipendently to democracy, if they wish so.
And as for dictators and tyrants, as long as they're the west es, they mantain stability and they serve the interests of western countries, removing them would be silly and stupid, and will likely cause instability, problems, a worse situation in their countries and lots of deaths.

Democracy + country without a democratic culture, check and balances and so on = failed state with political/religious extremists in power, or a democratically elected president that then become "president for life".