People of Anatolia-who are they? (Today and before)

[dogukan]

Well after opening the origins of ancient Greeks thread, I realized that people actually know about these areas.

Anyways, Anatolia has been the land of earliest known/advanced civilizations along with Mesopotamia and Egypt. It also contained people from many different tribes/nations. THe Assyrians, Hattis, Phyrigians, Lydians, Carians, Armenians,Cappadocians, Kurds...later the colonizing Greeks. And many other smaller groups...They were taken over by Persians, and then again by Greeks which hellenized the lands a lot.
THen came the Romans and stood here for a loooong time. They then faced the barbarians and made them settle in their lands(and assimilated them-I mean the Christianized Turkics). And later the area was conquered by Turkmen tribes(and some Arabian on the southern-east bit) from Iran and Caucus. These tribes themselves were different from each other. Then came the Mongols and them too settled . After that we see the Ottomans taking control and bringing in many Jews. And in her last days lots of people from Balkans and Caucasia fled to Anatolia.

In all these years some nationalities were assimilated...especially the ancient ones. But all of them left their marks...people of Anatolia has always exchanged in culture.
The only screwed part was the events which diminished the Armenian and Greek population. Deportation of Armenians and exhanges between Greece and Turkey. And later the fascist events which scared and made whats left of the Greeks escape. Either way, these people shared a lot. There is also the fact that a lot of these minorities have changed religion to be in better position in the Ottoman empire and became assimilated. Or some changed because they were scared....etc...but you get the idea.

So after long years of being a nationalist, I have changed. I now consider myself an Anatolian. Not taking pride in that, but just considerng myself an Anatolian. Not Turkish...because I am from these lands. And well, in Turkey provincealism is like supporting a team. Whenever two people meet, they generally ask "where are you from"(asking the region)....region tells a lot about the person's background. For instance my mother's fathers background goes to Bulgaria...and her mum is from Sivas, the region which had many Armenians, Kurds, Zazas and Alevi Turkomans. Look how complicated it is. Father's mother is a Laz(a Caucasian group related to Georgians) and his father was just there...probably an assimilated Pontic Greek as he clearly doesn't look like a Turkic person.
THats how it's like for most of the people living in this country....if you dig, it goes to different peoples.

So would it be ok to call people of Turkey Anatolian, or see them as the people who changed everyone into Turkic. Whats your view on Anatolia?


(motivation for this thread: I was watching a program yesterday...and the historian there was a bastard, nationalist....the other guy said that Turkey's understanding of history has changed a lot and that we do not even recognize the earlier civilizations and see them as inferiors. These other guys were always concerned about showing how Turkish they are, how Turkomans went everywhere and Turkified....etc. And well it annoyed me)

[removeduser_487563287433]

Well after opening the origins of ancient Greeks thread, I realized that people actually know about these areas.

Anyways, Anatolia has been the land of earliest known/advanced civilizations along with Mesopotamia and Egypt. It also contained people from many different tribes/nations. THe Assyrians, Hattis, Phyrigians, Lydians, Carians, Armenians,Cappadocians, Kurds...later the colonizing Greeks. And many other smaller groups...They were taken over by Persians, and then again by Greeks which hellenized the lands a lot.
THen came the Romans and stood here for a loooong time. They then faced the barbarians and made them settle in their lands(and assimilated them-I mean the Christianized Turkics). And later the area was conquered by Turkmen tribes(and some Arabian on the southern-east bit) from Iran and Caucus. These tribes themselves were different from each other. Then came the Mongols and them too settled . After that we see the Ottomans taking control and bringing in many Jews. And in her last days lots of people from Balkans and Caucasia fled to Anatolia.

Quick note; Jews would have been a significant and extremely old population of Anatolia well before the Ottoman Empire held sway. Some of the highest estimates put Jews as making up 25% of the population of the Eastern Roman Empire, although this is, I repeat, the very highest estimate.

In all these years some nationalities were assimilated...especially the ancient ones. But all of them left their marks...people of Anatolia has always exchanged in culture.
The only screwed part was the events which diminished the Armenian and Greek population. Deportation of Armenians and exhanges between Greece and Turkey. And later the fascist events which scared and made whats left of the Greeks escape.

Bit of a western view point. Turks would call it their War of Independence against invading Greeks. The population exchange that followed the peace also involved Turks leaving mainland Greece.

The Armenian genocide is a different kettle of fish.

Either way, these people shared a lot. There is also the fact that a lot of these minorities have changed religion to be in better position in the Ottoman empire and became assimilated. Or some changed because they were scared....etc...but you get the idea.

So after long years of being a nationalist, I have changed. I now consider myself an Anatolian. Not taking pride in that, but just considerng myself an Anatolian. Not Turkish...because I am from these lands. And well, in Turkey provincealism is like supporting a team. Whenever two people meet, they generally ask "where are you from"(asking the region)....region tells a lot about the person's background. For instance my mother's fathers background goes to Bulgaria...and her mum is from Sivas, the region which had many Armenians, Kurds, Zazas and Alevi Turkomans. Look how complicated it is. Father's mother is a Laz(a Caucasian group related to Georgians) and his father was just there...probably an assimilated Pontic Greek as he clearly doesn't look like a Turkic person.
THats how it's like for most of the people living in this country....if you dig, it goes to different peoples.

That is a very noble and probably accurate position to take. Anatolia has from our earliest knowledge been a place of immigration and integration. Even the Hittites, one of the very oldest civilisations of the area came from outside Anatolia, displacing their predesscors the Hattians, from whom they took the name of their land, Hatti. (As a side note, we do not know what the Hittites called themselves, we take this name from Biblical references that probably mean the Neo-Hittite kingdoms, not the Hittite Empire. The Hittites called their language Nesili, in contrast to Hattian, which was a non-Indo-European language).

I hope you employ this perspective in the current domestic issues in Turkey. It would be nice to see you supporting greater freedom for Kurds to express their culture - which is your shared heritage.

So would it be ok to call people of Turkey Anatolian, or see them as the people who changed everyone into Turkic. Whats your view on Anatolia?

I think it is definitely fair to say that the people of Turkey have a varied heritage.

(motivation for this thread: I was watching a program yesterday...and the historian there was a bastard, nationalist....the other guy said that Turkey's understanding of history has changed a lot and that we do not even recognize the earlier civilizations and see them as inferiors. These other guys were always concerned about showing how Turkish they are, how Turkomans went everywhere and Turkified....etc. And well it annoyed me)

Yes, that is a problem. The earlier civilisations of Anatolia were all extremely remarkable even if they were not all as famous as Troy. The Hittites employed an ancient law code that I sincerely believe would have been much better for the development of human civilisation than the Babylonian one that influenced Jewish law and subsequently western law. Civilisations such as Lydia were notorious for their amazing wealth and for the sophistication of Sardis. The Persian, Turkish and Jewish heritage of the area are all things to be proud of.

But with this acceptance of non-Turkish heritage as often being a positive thing such nationalist historians must recognise the errors of more recent history and cease what is obviously little more than naked biggotry and prejudice.

All that will go a long way towards improving Turkey and allowing further development into whatever Anatolian cultures may come.

[dogukan]

Quick note; Jews would have been a significant and extremely old population of Anatolia well before the Ottoman Empire held sway. Some of the highest estimates put Jews as making up 25% of the population of the Eastern Roman Empire, although this is, I repeat, the very highest estimate.

I never knew that.

Bit of a western view point. Turks would call it their War of Independence against invading Greeks. The population exchange that followed the peace also involved Turks leaving mainland Greece.

The Armenian genocide is a different kettle of fish.

Those events are the saddest things in the history of Anatolia imo.
(note: I'm a bit sensetive about calling the Armenian massacares a "genocide" but thats not the issue now)

That is a very noble and probably accurate position to take. Anatolia has from our earliest knowledge been a place of immigration and integration. Even the Hittites, one of the very oldest civilisations of the area came from outside Anatolia, displacing their predesscors the Hattians, from whom they took the name of their land, Hatti. (As a side note, we do not know what the Hittites called themselves, we take this name from Biblical references that probably mean the Neo-Hittite kingdoms, not the Hittite Empire. The Hittites called their language Nesili, in contrast to Hattian, which was a non-Indo-European language).

What are you studying?(or did you?)

I hope you employ this perspective in the current domestic issues in Turkey. It would be nice to see you supporting greater freedom for Kurds to express their culture - which is your shared heritage.

Oh I already do...I'm with the Kurds on many issues.

I think it is definitely fair to say that the people of Turkey have a varied heritage.

But with this acceptance of non-Turkish heritage as often being a positive thing such nationalist historians must recognise the errors of more recent history and cease what is obviously little more than naked biggotry and prejudice.

indeed

All that will go a long way towards improving Turkey and allowing further development into whatever Anatolian cultures may come.

hopefully

[removeduser_487563287433]

What are you studying?(or did you?)

I did Classical Studies and English Literature at University. One of my final dissertations was on the Hittites and I specialised in Bronze Age Anatolia and the Aegean.

[Ebusitanus]

One wonders what might be left from ancient times with so much population movement. During the earlier Byzantine times Anatolia was still a major breadbasket and recruiting ground for the eastern legions. After the Turkish take over I understand most population tried to flee westward and much repoblation toke place. Also, I understand that during the Ottoman era quite some balkans were resettled there too.

[cenkiss]

I am from Turkey,but i am not an anatoilan,never been.

[dogukan]

I am from Turkey,but i am not an anatoilan,never been.

Some people have real Turkic roots(or majority of family members had been Turkic)...are you one of them?

[cenkiss]

No.

[Farnan]

Istanbul then?

[cenkiss]

Istanbul then?

No,not istanbul.

[removeduser_487563287433]

I think he's just getting his nationalism on. Rah rah Turks, etc.

[cenkiss]

No,i am from balkans.

[removeduser_487563287433]

So when Farnan said Istanbul you could have just said, "yeah, near there".

[cenkiss]

well it is not that near istanbul.

[removeduser_487563287433]

In Turkey, in the Balkans, is near Istanbul.

[cenkiss]

Doğukan,i just wanna ask.İn what things are you in with kurds?And are you in with which kurds?

[dogukan]

Doğukan,i just wanna ask.İn what things are you in with kurds?And are you in with which kurds?

On 1 May when we run away from police, we are pretty much together

Other than that I believe Kurdish should become second official language. The Kurdish culture has to be totally recognized, and Kurds should be able to teach Kurdish history in schools. I doN't know if they already did but Kurdology in universities is also good...they should be free to celebrate Nevruz in their ways.
They should be able to shout pro-PKK. They can call kia PKK members as matyrs and make funerals for them. After all they are also part of our country and people. If not, then they can have their independance.
Seriously, an autonomy could be fine in south-eastern region and much more efficient.

Whatever right they get, if they want their independance...the issues will never be settled though. So either the government should improve the region a lot so that they do not want to do things their way, or there'll be more trouble...and I'm not against them in that way.

[cenkiss]

Are you serious?On may 1 i have seen it too.They were shouting pro-pkk.Hurting people and breaking other people's properties,stoning the police.I don't know about improving.Many people willingly went there to improve their conditions.To help them.Guess what happened to them.Brutally murdered by terrorists.And many poor people in Turkey i know call it a bias.They want to help kurds,but some kurdish parliamentarian foolishly calls ocalan as a kurdish leader,why should i help them?.Pkk attacked army first,without much provocation,they dance on corpses of Turkish soldiers.But5 some democrat people call them misundersttod,blameless.I am not buying that.There is not that freedom in me for the pkk.

And language thing,my family had the same treatment,maybe even much more worse.

And are you saying that you are supporting pkk?

[dogukan]

Are you serious?On may 1 i have seen it too.They were shouting pro-pkk.Hurting people and breaking other people's properties,stoning the police.

Some do, some do not...after all PKK is a socialist organization, and socialists back each other...naturally.
And well, do not believe the propoganda on the media.....I was there on 1 May. Protesters were not hurting anybody...if there is somebody that hurts people, it's the fascist police. Seriously I believe they were specially chosen. THe best thing in there you can do is to stay where there are cameras. When the press is there, they don't beat the hell out of you, almost to death. They still beat you though.

Some people did damage the property of the people when escaping...I ahve seen it. But it's not like everybody is there to do that. A few people do it because they are angry and idiotic. In fact majority of the protesters shouted "do not throw stones"..there are some provacators in between(one of my friends was one of them) that brought up stones.

Many people willingly went there to improve their conditions.To help them.Guess what happened to them.Brutally murdered by terrorists.And many poor people in Turkey i know call it a bias.They want to help kurds,but some kurdish parliamentarian foolishly calls ocalan as a kurdish leader,why should i help them?.Pkk attacked army first,without much provocation,they dance on corpses of Turkish soldiers.But5 some democrat people call them misundersttod,blameless.I am not buying that.There is not that freedom in me for the pkk.

And language thing,my family had the same treatment,maybe even much more worse.

I know some people went there to help and were murdered by PKK. After all PKK does not want people to go pro-government. But still the region is *** up...especially the Jandarma and police there is giving hell to locals.

They call Ocalan a leader, naturally because that guy started the Kurdish movement. And created a giant organization. Who are you going to talk to, if not him?

PKK attacked army...who were they going to attack if not army? Thats how war works.
And attacking army is not terrorism...it's being a guerilla.
PKK is called "terrorist" because they killed civillians in the past....thats not happening much lately though.

Your family had what?

[cenkiss]

Some do, some do not...after all PKK is a socialist organization, and socialists back each other...naturally.
And well, do not believe the propoganda on the media.....I was there on 1 May. Protesters were not hurting anybody...if there is somebody that hurts people, it's the fascist police. Seriously I believe they were specially chosen. THe best thing in there you can do is to stay where there are cameras. When the press is there, they don't beat the hell out of you, almost to death. They still beat you though.

Some people did damage the property of the people when escaping...I ahve seen it. But it's not like everybody is there to do that. A few people do it because they are angry and idiotic. In fact majority of the protesters shouted "do not throw stones"..there are some provacators in between(one of my friends was one of them) that brought up stones.

Fascist police?Pkk supporters not hurting anyon's anything?Were we in the same place?