Two questions regarding Lore

[Outlawstar15a2]

1.) I remember reading on a website regarding the breath and body fluids of the Nazgul being poisonous. When Eowyn defeated the Pimp Witch King he, I guess, spat on her or something because some sickly looking mist sprayed her and it burnt like a very strong acid marring her badly. My question is, did Eowyn suffer from that wound badly or did it eventually heal over and if it did heal over why didn't she suffer from it like Frodo did when the Nazgul plunged the Morgul blade into him?

2.) How did Sauron primarily convey orders and strategy protocol? I can't imagine everything being transmitted via dreams, nightmares, and prayer. He had to have a practical means of communication to keep all his troops informed and disciplined otherwise his army and war host would have fallen apart. And with him being on the Golden Throne, I mean, non physical form he didn't have the means to do it directly.

[Arthur Artorius]

1. If I recall correctly Aragorn healed her. "The hands of the King are the hands of a healer" or some such thing.

2. You've basically answered your own question. Sauron can't take physical form so there's no way he can physically "talk" to any of his minions. He would have to communicate via some sort of extra-sensory telepathy, probably with the Nazgul who then do his bidding. Being able to communicate mentally (dreams, nightmares, visions, voices) or through certain artifacts (the One Ring and the palantiri) apparently works well enough for him. Although I think a lot of his minions only need basic directions like (Go in that direction and kill everything you come across) you can basically just turn orcs loose and let their instincts do the rest. I'm actually pulling all that out of my ass, its just my best guest.

[eskrogh]

2. You've basically answered your own question. Sauron can't take physical form so there's no way he can physically "talk" to any of his minions. He would have to communicate via some sort of extra-sensory telepathy, probably with the Nazgul who then do his bidding. Being able to communicate mentally (dreams, nightmares, visions, voices) or through certain artifacts (the One Ring and the palantiri) apparently works well enough for him. Although I think a lot of his minions only need basic directions like (Go in that direction and kill everything you come across) you can basically just turn orcs loose and let their instincts do the rest. I'm actually pulling all that out of my ass, its just my best guest.

couldnt he still talk as a spirit? i would guess that it was the Nazguls and the Mouth of Sauron who obviusly heard Saurons orders? or else The Mouth of Sauron must have had some spell to be able to communicate with Sauron?

[Arthur Artorius]

Maybe Sauron was just anti-social and didn't like making new friends?

I always figured he communicated through some quasi-magical *oh hey a disembodied spirit's talking to me* kind of way through telepathy, so only the people he talks to hear him. It obviously works through the palantiri and the ring, you can see the palantir active but nobody else in the room hears Sauron, just sees his "Eye" logo.

I don't think anyone has conversations with the guy in person, well, in unperson I guess. Either those few who have direct contact with Sauron hear him alone, or his voice does resonate in the open air, just that only a select group are allowed to hear his voice. My vote is for hearing Sauron in your mind alone.

Although a spirit with no physical form ought to not be able to directly effect the physical world, ME operates by a mishmash of fantastical and mundane rules, so any way you choose this is really justified. Unless you can find some damning evidence as to one or the other that is.

*shrugs*

[A1_Unit]

That's kind of the way EA did it too with LOTR: Conquest. (No disscusion over whether it was good or bad please)

[maxi90]

2.) How did Sauron primarily convey orders and strategy protocol? I can't imagine everything being transmitted via dreams, nightmares, and prayer. He had to have a practical means of communication to keep all his troops informed and disciplined otherwise his army and war host would have fallen apart. And with him being on the Golden Throne, I mean, non physical form he didn't have the means to do it directly.

i am pretty sure that the eye thing was an invention of the movies. in the books he had fisical form, but it was very fragile and weak, so he couldn't risk to go outside Baradur.

[Arthur Artorius]

edit: lore dictates he does have a body. Verbally speaking to his minions should be possible then. Although I can't actually say that Sauron can talk at this point. He can communicate mentally, rather directly too, with the Nazgul. When he perceives Frodo putting on the Ring in Mount Doom he commands the Nazgul to stop him. So he obviously has a way of directly ordering his cheif servants without needing to actually talk to them or have them even be near him.

[George Maniaces]

I think part of the way Sauron controls his hosts is just by his will. He exerts his will and they follow it. Not so much direct communication, more like if an Orc were at a crossroads and didn't know which way to go, then Sauron exerted his will to make him go North, well that's just the way the Orc would choose to go, whether or not he was conscious of another will forcing him to do it.

This is certainly how he is able to communicate instantly with the Nazgul. The nine rings they possess "bind" them to his will, and make them slaves to it. Sauron thinks "Someone has put on the Ring, find them." And the Nazgul, whatever they are doing of their own will (if they have any left at all), just know that they need to go to a certain place and kill something with the Ring. Its all a bit metaphysical, but this is also why all of Sauron's troops essentially disperse and disband once the Dark Tower crumbles and Sauron himself is destroyed. They no longer have his will guiding them, and they have been subject to it for most (all?) of their lives, so they just don't know what to do any longer.

Something like that.

[HAL-9000]

I think part of the way Sauron controls his hosts is just by his will. He exerts his will and they follow it. Not so much direct communication, more like if an Orc were at a crossroads and didn't know which way to go, then Sauron exerted his will to make him go North, well that's just the way the Orc would choose to go, whether or not he was conscious of another will forcing him to do it.

This is certainly how he is able to communicate instantly with the Nazgul. The nine rings they possess "bind" them to his will, and make them slaves to it. Sauron thinks "Someone has put on the Ring, find them." And the Nazgul, whatever they are doing of their own will (if they have any left at all), just know that they need to go to a certain place and kill something with the Ring. Its all a bit metaphysical, but this is also why all of Sauron's troops essentially disperse and disband once the Dark Tower crumbles and Sauron himself is destroyed. They no longer have his will guiding them, and they have been subject to it for most (all?) of their lives, so they just don't know what to do any longer.

Something like that.

From the book this does indeed appear to be how he communicates, although communication via the palantir seems to be carried out on a more personal level, though more through a battle of will and mind than having a chin wag.

[OfficerJohn]

I think part of the way Sauron controls his hosts is just by his will. He exerts his will and they follow it. Not so much direct communication, more like if an Orc were at a crossroads and didn't know which way to go, then Sauron exerted his will to make him go North, well that's just the way the Orc would choose to go, whether or not he was conscious of another will forcing him to do it.

This is certainly how he is able to communicate instantly with the Nazgul. The nine rings he possess "bind" them to his will, and make them slaves to it. Sauron thinks "Someone has put on the Ring, find them." And the Nazgul, whatever they are doing of their own will (if they have any left at all), just know that they need to go to a certain place and kill something with the Ring. Its all a bit metaphysical, but this is also why all of Sauron's troops essentially disperse and disband once the Dark Tower crumbles and Sauron himself is destroyed. They no longer have his will guiding them, and they have been subject to it for most (all?) of their lives, so they just don't know what to do any longer.

Something like that.

Sauron possess he the nine rings, not the Nazgul.

[George Maniaces]

Sauron possess he the nine rings, not the Nazgul.

Not too sure about that. Got any evidence?

[ptc77]

Not too sure about that. Got any evidence?

Sauron definitely holds the Nine.

1. The robes of the Nazgûl are visible. By this point they have become wraiths from usage of the rings and are invisible permanently, but, according to Gandalf, they wear the robes to "give shape to their nothingness". If they were wearing the rings, the robes would become invisible too. Also, at the siege of Minas Tirith, the Witch-king pulls back the hood of his robe and he has a crown on his head, but there is nothing visible between the shoulders of the robe and the crown. Which shows that his body is invisible but another garment isn't. I don't believe Tolkien would have ever required someone to get naked before being able to be invisible with the ring (Frodo and Bilbo certainly don't have to) so I can only assume that the Nazgûl aren't wearing their rings.

2. It's FREQUENTLY mentioned in the book when discussing the rings that the "Nine Sauron keeps" or "the Nine Sauron holds". In the same way that Frodo has some degree of control over Gollum by holding the one ring, Sauron controls the Nine by holding their rings. Thus, they are slaves to his will. Of course, by this point the Nazgûl are much more ruined than Gollum so they won't betray their master.

3. At the battle of Weathertop, Frodo sees tattered robes and the crowns of the Nazgûl (we can assume that these have been wraith-ified and shifted into the shadow realm along with the bodies, and the black robes were obtained later) and describes their appearances in detail, but he does not mention them wearing rings at all. Later, in Lothlórien, he can quite clearly see Galadriel's ring even when he is not wearing the one ring (although Sam and everybody else can't see it).

4. After the Witch-king is killed at the Battle of the Pelennor Fields, no ring is found. Eowyn, after killing him, falls forward onto his empty robe but there is nothing inside it anymore (another indicator that the robes are to give shape to their nothingness). After the battle, the body of the fell-beast is burned, Théoden and Eowyn are retrieved, Snowmane (Théoden's horse) is buried in a mound, and they seem to do quite a good clean-up of the whole scene but there is no ring found, only the black robe remains.

[Pud]

edit: lore dictates he does have a body. Verbally speaking to his minions should be possible then. Although I can't actually say that Sauron can talk at this point. He can communicate mentally, rather directly too, with the Nazgul. When he perceives Frodo putting on the Ring in Mount Doom he commands the Nazgul to stop him. So he obviously has a way of directly ordering his cheif servants without needing to actually talk to them or have them even be near him.

Well, he didn't necessarily command the Nazgul to stop Frodo. Remember that the Nazgul are always looking for the ring and they are automatically drawn to it when someone puts it on. Still, Sauron very well may have told the Nazgul to get to Mount Doom.

[Arthur Artorius]

Well, he didn't necessarily command the Nazgul to stop Frodo. Remember that the Nazgul are always looking for the ring and they are automatically drawn to it when someone puts it on. Still, Sauron very well may have told the Nazgul to get to Mount Doom.

It has to do with Sauron's attention. When his attention is on something the Nazgul are pulled towards it. So yes, it does have to do with Sauron's will. It exerts control over all his minions. It's a bit more subtle than direct communication. Creepier too.

[Pud]

It has to do with Sauron's attention. When his attention is on something the Nazgul are pulled towards it. So yes, it does have to do with Sauron's will. It exerts control over all his minions. It's a bit more subtle than direct communication. Creepier too.

Ok, thanks for clearing that up, didn't think of it in that sense.

[ptc77]

1.) I remember reading on a website regarding the breath and body fluids of the Nazgul being poisonous. When Eowyn defeated the Pimp Witch King he, I guess, spat on her or something because some sickly looking mist sprayed her and it burnt like a very strong acid marring her badly. My question is, did Eowyn suffer from that wound badly or did it eventually heal over and if it did heal over why didn't she suffer from it like Frodo did when the Nazgul plunged the Morgul blade into him?

2.) How did Sauron primarily convey orders and strategy protocol? I can't imagine everything being transmitted via dreams, nightmares, and prayer. He had to have a practical means of communication to keep all his troops informed and disciplined otherwise his army and war host would have fallen apart. And with him being on the Golden Throne, I mean, non physical form he didn't have the means to do it directly.

It's only in the film that Sauron doesn't have physical form. If you read the books, when Aragorn and the army arrive at the black gate, their demand is for the "Lord of the Black Lands to come forth" which would be rather odd if Sauron didn't have a body. As for communication, Sauron did have some form of mental link with the Nazgûl, but as for his other minions he commanded them much like anybody else did: he had many servants besides orcs, evil men and other beasts, and could have used any of them as messengers. And just as the orc-captains Shagrat and Gorbag at Cirith Ungol, he must have had other lesser leaders to act as a chain of command.

[HAL-9000]

As for communication, Sauron did have some form of mental link with the Nazgûl, but as for his other minions he commanded them much like anybody else did: he had many servants besides orcs, evil men and other beasts, and could have used any of them as messengers. And just as the orc-captains Shagrat and Gorbag at Cirith Ungol, he must have had other lesser leaders to act as a chain of command.

I disagree. I think this may have been the case for the men of Rhun and Harad but certainly not for the orcs and other minions. Allow me to quote:

'As when deathsmites the swollen brooding thing that inhabits their crawling hill and holds them all in sway, ants will wander witless and purposeless and then feebly die, so the creatures of Sauron, orc or troll or beast spell-enslaved, ran hither and thither mindless; and some slew themselves, or cast themselves in pits, or fled wailing back to hide in holes and dark lightless places far from hope.'

So from the passage you can see that the orcs, trolls and other creatures were controlled by some sort of spell, by the will of Sauron, and with that will no-longer their guiding influence they became like ants without the guiding influence of their leader, scurrying about with no purpose, as it was simply the will of Sauron that gave them their purpose. It is worth noting that this occured simultaneously and instantly as Saurons spirit died, rather than being something which filtered down through the ranks, adding weight to the creatures being under a spell of some kind, as I say, held in sway and command by the will of Sauron and not through direct orders of any kind.

[Arthur Artorius]

Yes, the orcs are all slaves to the will of Sauron. But he gives special important orders to his Nazgul and those such as the Mouth of Sauron. They're slaves to his will too, but they're entrusted with all the special jobs, and leading Morder's vast hordes. Sauron's will is the driving/guiding force, but the orcs do have leaders among their own ranks to say "go this way". Once their driving force was gone all of Saurons creatures completely lost heart and fled (its a little more complicated than that but this is close enough).

Also, that you say they're under a spell is a bit like calling the kettle black. You can call being a slave to the will of an evil immortal spirit-thing a spell or you can call it being the slave of an immortal spirit-thing. Up to you. Although the orcs lost their free will a long long long time ago. They don't really have wills of their own so its not quite accurate to call them "spell-enslaved" since you can't enslave something that was never free to begin with. They can exist without Sauron, but they can never really be a threat.

[ptc77]

Yes, the orcs are all slaves to the will of Sauron. But he gives special important orders to his Nazgul and those such as the Mouth of Sauron. They're slaves to his will too, but they're entrusted with all the special jobs, and leading Morder's vast hordes. Sauron's will is the driving/guiding force, but the orcs do have leaders among their own ranks to say "go this way". Once their driving force was gone all of Saurons creatures completely lost heart and fled (its a little more complicated than that but this is close enough).

Also, that you say they're under a spell is a bit like calling the kettle black. You can call being a slave to the will of an evil immortal spirit-thing a spell or you can call it being the slave of an immortal spirit-thing. Up to you. Although the orcs lost their free will a long long long time ago. They don't really have wills of their own so its not quite accurate to call them "spell-enslaved" since you can't enslave something that was never free to begin with.

Agree. Sauron's "spell" is the driving force of his malevolent will. Without Sauron's control orcs are still capable of independent thought, Shagrat and Gorbag both talk about "the good old days" when they didn't have a "boss" which implies they had some degree of success in their endeavours prior to Sauron re-assiming control of Mordor. Without Sauron's driving will, however, orcs being cowards at heart won't attack a strong enemy where considerable risk of death applies, which is why after the collapse of the "spell" they ran away.

[A1_Unit]

If Sauron was a tangible spirit, then that would work.