Unit Mini Preview: Normanni

**sumskilz** · February 09, 2010, 10:05 PM

What? The Bayeax tapestry is full of Norman cavalry holding their spears like javelins (and throwing them).

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

In M2TW, units can only have a couple fighting styles. Normans fighting with couched lances are represented by our Milites and Servientes units which all Western factions have access to.

**Rufus1099** · February 09, 2010, 11:01 PM

Originally Posted by sumskilz

What? The Bayeax tapestry is full of Norman cavalry holding their spears like javelins (and throwing them).

In M2TW, units can only have a couple fighting styles. Normans fighting with couched lances are represented by our Milites and Servientes units which all Western factions have access to.

R. Allen Brown would disagree with you.

"While we have the unimpeachable testimony of Ordericus Vitalis for the throwing of spears from the saddle as a knightly skill to be practiced, it was obviously not very effective in battle and is accordingly very difficult indeed to find instances of it in the Bayeux Tapestry's depiction of Hastings. Those many knights on the Tapestry apparently brandishing their lances above their heads, and whom Mr [Richard] Glover assumes about to throw them, are in fact about to strike over-arm in the manner most likely against infantry, the two methods of using the lance on horseback inherited from antiquity being the overarm and underarm thrust."¹

It is also unlikely, in my mind, that a lance measuring 9-11² feet in length could be used as an effective thrown weapon, when javelins, from what I understand, are significantly shorter. Vegetius' pilum was only 6 feet long, for example. Or this assegai http://webprojects.prm.ox.ac.uk/arms...rs/1966.1.114/

Your point about different fighting styles is well taken, but it was genuinely rare for the Normans to attack by throwing their spears, and there are few accounts of it.

1. Brown, R. Allen, 'The Battle of Hastings', Anglo-Norman Warfare Ed. Matthew Strickland (Woodbridge: The Boydell Press, 1992)
2. Ian Pierce, 'Arms, Armour and Warfare in the Eleventh Century', Anglo Norman Studies, X (1987), pp. 237-257

**sumskilz** · February 10, 2010, 01:31 AM

R. Allen Brown would disagree with you.

"While we have the unimpeachable testimony of Ordericus Vitalis for the throwing of spears from the saddle as a knightly skill to be practiced, it was obviously not very effective in battle and is accordingly very difficult indeed to find instances of it in the Bayeux Tapestry's depiction of Hastings. Those many knights on the Tapestry apparently brandishing their lances above their heads, and whom Mr [Richard] Glover assumes about to throw them, are in fact about to strike over-arm in the manner most likely against infantry, the two methods of using the lance on horseback inherited from antiquity being the overarm and underarm thrust."1

Yeah, I've heard that interpretation before. I don't think anyone disputes that the Normans thrust overarm early on. However, on the Bayeux Tapestry there are also depictions of the same spears held by the cavalrymen also flying through the air (at least one that I remember). I’m aware that this is an issue still disputed by scholars. I was just taken aback at first because I thought you were claiming that the Bayeux Tapestry confirms the predominance of the couched lance.

It is also unlikely, in my mind, that a lance measuring 9-112 feet in length could be used as an effective thrown weapon, when javelins, from what I understand, are significantly shorter. Vegetius' pilum was only 6 feet long, for example.

Those examples are thrown by infantry. With the height and velocity of a horse behind it, a long spear thrown as a javelin could probably achieve equal distance to a small javelin thrown by an infantryman, but with greater penetrating force.

On the other hand, we know that the Normans in Sicily were already using the couched lance by the late Eleventh Century. I wouldn’t have a problem changing them, but then they’d just be milites with better moral I guess.

I didn’t do the research for this unit, so I can really only respond with what I know offhand. Maybe one of the other team members will have something to say on the topic.

**AnthoniusII** · February 10, 2010, 07:34 AM

Allow me a small opinion.
It is true that a history researcher can not have a clear view of the way batlles faught by each individual in them.
Each warrior faught the way he felt that would help him to survive 1st and then win the batlle.
A game's engine such the M2TW have some limitations.
For example we can not have diferent style warriors in the same unit. We hope that will change in the future games.
Now...for norman knights.
We must not forget who Normans were.
Vikings that settled in french teritory and adopted some new warfare tactics from the rest of the europeans.
In the Frankish empire that influenced the west and central europe with warfare tacticks and equipment,the heavy cavalry was not the same style of the Lombard,Arabic,Armenian and last the Roman ones.
Frankish heavy cavalry used short spears (same as their infantry) to make their 1st impact. The walls of shields ans spearheads the enemy infantry presented against the cavalry frighened the horses that often refused to advance! The most comon tactic those cavalry man had in their disposal was to go near the infantry lines throw their spears and distract the infantry lines to the moment they (the horsemen)could repeat their attack, with their swords this time.
That tactic was efective to central and west europe that bowmen were rare and infantry also used 2-2.5 m spears.
Normans forced to change their tactic and adopt the charge style we all know today when they arrived (as raiders 1st)in Itally!!!
There (in Italy)had to deal with old fashion armored but armed with long lances Lombards, with the heavily armored Saracen horsemen and later when they came across with Tagmatic horsemen of the Romans that arrived in Italy as reinforcements.
The "khight" style we know today as Norman is actualy a Lombard one that was a version of earlier Roman influences...
How do we know that.
In the Italian Roman(byzantine) campaigns descriptions Romans faced the Normans as Lombard allied forces...They were clear about how those "normans faught".They discribed that they launced their short spears (in M2TW we can only show it as javelin)and returne dto repeat their advance.
TO the Roman generals was adviced to keep tight infantry formations with more heavily armored(that the average) infantry men and counter attack them(the normans)with light range cavalry that their arrows could easily penetrate their chain mails!
Normans after the settle in Italy adopted the longer lances (shorter than Roman ones though)and added scale and lamellar cuirasses of Arabic and Byzantine style to their chain mails.Also they adopted the Lombard tight cavalry charge and added arabic bowmen to their armies.
The Norman warfare lessons spread in all central and west europe mainly after the 1st crusade.
So if a mod should acuratly wants to show to its fans the evolution of the Norman or norman style cavalry it has to show them as javelin men at early era and as lancers at the late era...

I hope i helped.