The History of Israel

[Pietrak]

[Responses based on this post. This thread split off from that. -Simetrical]

And the Jewish settlers refuse to leave saying that it is their land.

Well, that land WAS their, but very long ago. i think, that the country of Israel was made unjustly. the Palestinians should be consulted in this matter. and now we have war and haterd on both sides...

[Breath]

Well, that land WAS their, but very long ago. i think, that the country of Israel was made unjustly. the Palestinians should be consulted in this matter. and now we have war and haterd on both sides...

True it was their land. Even in the Quran it tells stories of how the Jews were given a favor of that land from God. But they broke their covenant and so God allowed it to be taken away many times.

I believe that now it is best that Palastinians stop fighting against Israelis and vice versa. It is too late to undo what has been done. Both sides must live in peace now. I think the withdrawal from Gaza is a small but hopeful first step.

[ODST]

Good to see a fellow Muslim explain this area of Islam. Some extremist muslims (and to an extent the media) have made Islam look like a violent religion.

True it was their land. Even in the Quran it tells stories of how the Jews were given a favor of that land from God. But they broke their covenant and so God allowed it to be taken away many times.

I believe that now it is best that Palastinians stop fighting against Israelis and vice versa. It is too late to undo what has been done. Both sides must live in peace now. I think the withdrawal from Gaza is a small but hopeful first step.

How exactly did the Jews break their covenant?? I have a feeling it may have something to do with the Prophets...but I'm not sure...

BTW Asalamalaikum

Not sure how to spell it but here goes...

Walaikumaslam

[Breath]

Good to see a fellow Muslim explain this area of Islam. Some extremist muslims (and to an extent the media) have made Islam look like a violent religion.



How exactly did the Jews break their covenant?? I have a feeling it may have something to do with the Prophets...but I'm not sure...

Um well there are various reasons. Some are stated in the Quran, I will also look into the Old Testament. I will get back to it. BTW Asalamalaikum .

[Simetrical]

The main focus in Islam is absolute Monotheism (Tawheed). Islam's main stress is that there is only One God. He has absolute might and supremacy and that he has created everything. Worship is to be attributed to Allah and Allah alone. It diifers from other religions in this fact, even the other two Monotheistic religions Judaism and Christianity.

Judaism also considers that there is one omnipotent God who created everything, and that no entity but God Himself may be prayed to or worshiped.

What happened in Palastine. Well Israel was created into the previous state of Palastine in 1947.

Hold on there. Palestine was not a state at the time. Before 1947, the last time Palestine was controlled by its residents was the Maccabean Kingdom, of the second century BCE (or maybe one of the caliphates, not clear on that). After the Maccabees, it was controlled by the Romans from 63 BCE, then the Byzantines after the split of the Empire ca. the 4th century CE, then various caliphates from 634, then the Christians from 1099, then various Muslims again in 1187. The Ottoman Turks then controlled the region from 1516 until the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire after World War I. The British controlled it at the time of Israel's approval as an independent state. The "Palestinians" as we know them never controlled their own land.

Palastine's land was taken away just like that without them even being consulted.

To the contrary, the 1947 UN Partition Plan was the result of attempted compromises between the Arabs and the Jews. The Jews ended up accepting the plan, while the Palestinians rejected it, but they were most certainly consulted. In any case, the land wasn't "theirs" at the time, it was under the control of the UK.

Israel, then began to spread even further and take more Palastinian land. Other Arab countries saw this as unjust and so attacked to help their oppressed brothers in faith. They lost, so even more land was taken.

You have the chronology wrong. After Israel declared its independence in 1947, several surrounding Arab countries attacked immediately, hoping to nip Jewish Israel in the bud. The Arabs attacked as of the UN Partition Plan, not after Israel took additional land on top of that.

After another war in 1956, also provoked more or less by nothing more than Israel's existence, the Six-Day War started in 1967—also started by the Arabs, who began to amass forces in clear preparation for an attack, although Israel was actually the one who initiated the hostilities proper. As a result of this war, the third that Arab Muslims initiated in nineteen years, Israel seized some land belonging to various nations that attacked it—most of it not directly involved in the Six-Day War itself, but some used for such purposes as shelling Israel. Israel later traded the Sinai Peninsula back to Egypt in exchange for a peace treaty.

Hatred ensued between both peoples.

Hatred existed before Israel's '67 acquisitions. The seeds of hatred were planted with the origin of Zionism in the late 19th century, until by 1947 the hatred was sufficient to launch a war. Israel's acquisitions may have fueled the existing hatred, but they didn't create it.

Radicals on both sides emerged (of course the Muslims are the ones focused on by the western media, I saw a Frontline documentary on Jewish hardliners who amazingly shared so much in common with the Muslims. They planned to bomb a girls school, saying that God had told them to kill Muslims and wanted to raze the Dome of the Rock and the Al-Aqsa Masjid because the Temple of Solomon stood nearby there before being destroyed by the Romans. The same way many Muslims extremists think.)

But those are far, far fewer than the equivalent Muslims. For parts of the current intifada, which has mostly wound down by now, Muslim extremists were attacking Jewish civilians and holy sites as often as a few times a week. Military retaliation occurred, of course, but not specifically targeting random noncombatants. Noncombatants were routinely killed by the Israelis, but only as collateral damage (not counting certain extremist clerics and others who incited, organized, or funded violence as "noncombatants", which they were only in the strictest sense).

Lets talk a little about the history of tolerance in Jerusalem. After the Prophets David and Solomon had built Jerusalam into a strong city for worshipers of God among the Children of Israel (Prophet Jacob). It was overrun by the Babylonians, Assyrians, Persians, Macedonians (Hellenistic), Romans, and then Roman Christians. All of these empires have a history of bad persecution to the Jews. The Romans even destroyed the Temple of Solomon.

Minor point: they destroyed the Second Temple, built under Zerubbabel and Jeshua around 530-515 BCE. Solomon's Temple was built somewhere in the 10th century BCE, and was destroyed by the Babylonian ruler Nebuchadnezzar in 586 BCE. And a less minor point is that the Babylonians and Romans destroyed their temples as punishment for rebellion—it's not persecution to punish revolts, at least not in my opinion. Most of those rulers didn't care how the Jews worshiped.

When Christianity swept the Roman Empire, the persecution got worse. When the Muslims went to war with the Eastern Roman Empire, and took Jerusalem, the persucution stopped. The Jews and even different Christian sects were allowed to worship in peace.

Most certainly, at least up until the rise of Zionism. Judaism has never been so tolerant of other religions when it's ruled—not during the Judgeship, the original Kingdoms, or the Maccabean times (although the only existing accounts of the first two are admittedly rather mythological).

How exactly did the Jews break their covenant?? I have a feeling it may have something to do with the Prophets...but I'm not sure...

I don't know about Muslim belief on this issue, but the Hebrew Bible/Old Testament says that the Jews constantly followed false gods and false prophets, ignoring the true prophets and all sorts of divine warnings. Thus, God allowed their temples to be destroyed. ("And because of our sins, we were exiled from our land, and distanced from being on our ground . . .")

-Simetrical

[Breath]

Hold on there. Palestine was not a state at the time. Before 1947, the last time Palestine was controlled by its residents was the Maccabean Kingdom, of the second century BCE (or maybe one of the caliphates, not clear on that). After the Maccabees, it was controlled by the Romans from 63 BCE, then the Byzantines after the split of the Empire ca. the 4th century CE, then various caliphates from 634, then the Christians from 1099, then various Muslims again in 1187. The Ottoman Turks then controlled the region from 1516 until the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire after World War I. The British controlled it at the time of Israel's approval as an independent state. The "Palestinians" as we know them never controlled their own land.

True, I am talking about the British state of Palastine. The fact is, there was a state of Palastine before the current Israel.

To the contrary, the 1947 UN Partition Plan was the result of attempted compromises between the Arabs and the Jews. The Jews ended up accepting the plan, while the Palestinians rejected it, but they were most certainly consulted. In any case, the land wasn't "theirs" at the time, it was under the control of the UK.

Yep, they showed the plan to put of seperate Jewish State right in the middle of the Palastinians. Fine they consulted them, wrong choice of words by me, but they also ignored them.

You have the chronology wrong. After Israel declared its independence in 1947, several surrounding Arab countries attacked immediately, hoping to nip Jewish Israel in the bud. The Arabs attacked as of the UN Partition Plan, not after Israel took additional land on top of that...

After another war in 1956, also provoked more or less by nothing more than Israel's existence, the Six-Day War started in 1967—also started by the Arabs, who began to amass forces in clear preparation for an attack, although Israel was actually the one who initiated the hostilities proper. As a result of this war, the third that Arab Muslims initiated in nineteen years, Israel seized some land belonging to various nations that attacked it—most of it not directly involved in the Six-Day War itself, but some used for such purposes as shelling Israel. Israel later traded the Sinai Peninsula back to Egypt in exchange for a peace treaty.

You are right in one aspect. The countries saw that Israel was unjustly built despite the opposition of the Palastinians, (as well as the not-so-bright motive of ridding themselves of a competitor), so they attacked and lost. I dont understand how I have it chronologically wrong. After this Israel began to spread. Then the Arab nations attacked again. Then more land was taken.

Hatred existed before Israel's '67 acquisitions. The seeds of hatred were planted with the origin of Zionism in the late 19th century, until by 1947 the hatred was sufficient to launch a war. Israel's acquisitions may have fueled the existing hatred, but they didn't create it.

Hatred may have existed previously, but certainly not at the level that it did after the establishment of Israel and the wars. And it wasn't very apparent previously either (well perhaps in Europe).

But those are far, far fewer than the equivalent Muslims. For parts of the current intifada, which has mostly wound down by now, Muslim extremists were attacking Jewish civilians and holy sites as often as a few times a week. Military retaliation occurred, of course, but not specifically targeting random noncombatants. Noncombatants were routinely killed by the Israelis, but only as collateral damage (not counting certain extremist clerics and others who incited, organized, or funded violence as "noncombatants", which they were only in the strictest sense).

Because Israel exists, and is clearly in the stronger position. Therefore, desperation is more prevalent among the Palastinians and it certainly is disturbing.

Minor point: they destroyed the Second Temple, built under Zerubbabel and Jeshua around 530-515 BCE. Solomon's Temple was built somewhere in the 10th century BCE, and was destroyed by the Babylonian ruler Nebuchadnezzar in 586 BCE. And a less minor point is that the Babylonians and Romans destroyed their temples as punishment for rebellion—it's not persecution to punish revolts, at least not in my opinion. Most of those rulers didn't care how the Jews worshiped.

But why did the Jews rebel? Persecution of course...

I don't know about Muslim belief on this issue, but the Hebrew Bible/Old Testament says that the Jews constantly followed false gods and false prophets, ignoring the true prophets and all sorts of divine warnings. Thus, God allowed their temples to be destroyed. ("And because of our sins, we were exiled from our land, and distanced from being on our ground . . .")

-Simetrical

Same.

[Petronius]

Sorry, I don't consider religious literature to be a claim on land. The Jews, most of whom are most likely NOT descended from the Judeans of 2000 years ago, do not have a valid claim on Palestine because of their 'birthright'. However, as long as Israel evacuates the contested areas (not including the state that was assigned in 1948 by the UN) I have no problems with that country.

[Breath]

Sorry, I don't consider religious literature to be a claim on land. The Jews, most of whom are most likely NOT descended from the Judeans of 2000 years ago, do not have a valid claim on Palestine because of their 'birthright'. However, as long as Israel evacuates the contested areas (not including the state that was assigned in 1948 by the UN) I have no problems with that country.

Well that is all fine, but for people of Jewish faith, I am sure the word of God is more important than the word of men.

[MaximiIian]

i think that the country of Israel was made unjustly.

That's verging on borderline anti-semitism, just so ya know what you're getting into...

[PandaRegent]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pietrak

i think that the country of Israel was made unjustly.
That's verging on borderline anti-semitism, just so ya know what you're getting into...

I don't see how it is anti-semitic. Expanation?

[MaximiIian]

I don't see how it is anti-semitic. Expanation?

You're saying that the jews shouldn't have thier own country...which is insulting to the jews...which translates as anti-semitism...sometimes.
I didn't say it's antisemitic, I said it's verging on borderline anti-semitism. You're not there yet, but if you keep insulting the jewish people you will get to that point.
Unless I missed your point, which I may have, though...

[Breath]

I never understood why they called hatred of Jews to be anti-semitism. All Jews are not of a semitic race and the Arabs are a semitic race...

Lets get back on topic and please lets not bash any religions.

[RudeHades]

Just so you don't get it mixed up, the people in Israel today, are not the Israelites, they are Israeli's... big difference

[Tigran of Sasoun]

Ya its not anti-semitism. If that was than this whole thread would be anti-islam

[Petronius]

I don't see that comment as anti-semetic at all, either. I know several Jews who are against the policies and what the state of Israel represents. While this is in no way representative of popular Jewish opinion, Jews and Israel are two seperate things.

[MaximiIian]

Agreed.

[Alexander Beats Hannibal]

If my country was split up into a jewish and non-jewish part I would be realy ****** off, especially if the Jewish part happened to be where my house is located.

It wasn't there country, and they weren't forced off the land.

[Tigran of Sasoun]

I dont know for me I am splite on this, i am a Christian and I have good relations with muslims and Jews. So i really do not like to view this conflict as Jews agaisnt muslims, but i know somepeople use it like that to get support. But doesnt it say in the old testamint that the lands will be given to jews? so if god says it, how can mans words or mans disproval be affected by them?? But i also feel the Palastinians are not getting justice. I really am very devided, i feel Jews deserve the land and so do the Palastinians, but i feel that Isreal is doing many wrong things and i really dont see the guerilla fighters in palastian as "terrorists".

[PandaRegent]

Wait, people of the Jewish religion or is it Hebrews that populate Israel?
My problem is that they created a country and said, "all you Jews can live here" and nobody thought there wouldn't be trouble. Wouldn't intergration in another country work just as well?

[Alexander Beats Hannibal]

My problem is that they created a country and said, "all you Jews can live here" and nobody thought there wouldn't be trouble.

They never tried to throw anyone off the land, and even offered the Palestinians the chance to stay on it, which many took.

Wouldn't intergration in another country work just as well?

They were turned away from most of the world. No one wanted to take a huge number of jews in after the war, and they didn't want to stay in Germany where they were slaughtered. Integration is what lead to centuries of jewish persecution.