I have a question

[Alkarin]

This question is aimed at currently religious people/people who have ever been religious ever in their lives.

As im sure you know im an Agnostic/Atheist and believe only in what science can prove. I have NEVER throughout the entire period of my life ever truly believe their was any type of supernatural being what so ever. I have even (when i was young) tried to force myself to believe their was due to the fact my mother was and still is devoutly christian but i just found the idea of religion utter crap. Even at the age of 8 I was unsatisfactory with the answer 'god created himself' and how their was absolutely nothing before god. There has to be something before him since you can't create something out of nothing. Anyways we can rant about the fundamentals of religion in another thread. Basically my question is How on earth could you honestly and truely believe their was a god? Ever praying even though you were not told due but you did it out of your faith. Even Fellow Atheists who were once religious i just literally can not phatom how you can honestly believe in any sort of god at all ever in your life. Hopefully i have not come off too rude but it really does just confuse me. Care to shed light on the subject?

[Tankbuster]

I'm somewhat like you, I suppose. Some of us are born so that they cannot believe this stuff.

I never really believed in God, ever. But when I was 13 years old, I was going through a pretty tough period in my life, and I guess I wanted some kind of 'manager'. He didn't have to love me or anything, but he had to make sure that things were going to be OK. Like a personal agent, if you will Pure solipsism, really.
So that night, I prayed. And the next night, I prayed as well.
And on the third night, I was about halway through my prayer when I thought "What the hell do you think you're doing? You're simply comforting yourself by thinking that everything is going to be alright without you actually doing anything."

So the next day, I took back control of my life and I started taking care of my problems by myself. I've done so to this day.
And I never looked back.

Now, I don't think I actually believed he was there, I simply wanted someone to be there.
And when I let go of this wish and took care of myself, nothing ever changed. Which, if this was simply an episode in the journey to adulthood and this Father figure in the sky was just a figment of my imagination and wishful thinking in the first place, actually makes perfect sense.

[uos_spo6]

This question is aimed at currently religious people/people who have ever been religious ever in their lives.

As im sure you know im an Agnostic/Atheist and believe only in what science can prove. I have NEVER throughout the entire period of my life ever truly believe their was any type of supernatural being what so ever. I have even (when i was young) tried to force myself to believe their was due to the fact my mother was and still is devoutly christian but i just found the idea of religion utter crap. Even at the age of 8 I was unsatisfactory with the answer 'god created himself' and how their was absolutely nothing before god. There has to be something before him since you can't create something out of nothing. Anyways we can rant about the fundamentals of religion in another thread. Basically my question is How on earth could you honestly and truely believe their was a god? Ever praying even though you were not told due but you did it out of your faith. Even Fellow Atheists who were once religious i just literally can not phatom how you can honestly believe in any sort of god at all ever in your life. Hopefully i have not come off too rude but it really does just confuse me. Care to shed light on the subject?

I believed in my youth because I never thought to question, by the time I hit the rebellious pre-teen/teen angst filled years all I did was question everything so questioning religion came naturally.

I think you are looking at it pretty one dimensionally though. I don't think a lot of believers take it all literally, they just believe that something along the lines of God exists for the greater good I guess you could say. Science itself is imperfect and constantly conflicting it's own rules. At one point it was thought certain laws and rules of physics applied to all, then eventually quantum physics and sub atomic particles were discovered.

I guess I'm just saying that science can't explain it all. And science and religion don't necessarily have to cancel each other out. Most scientists maintain religious beliefs. Proving that the Earth is so many years old does not prove that God couldn't have made it. Proving that germs and virus cause illness doesn't prove that Gods hand/will is not the force that moves it. Proving that man evolved from ape does not prove that God did not facilitate this system.

Science answers many questions yes, but it raises new ones along the way.

I'm agnostic/nihilistic (i guess), but I'm just saying that anything is possible. Being on the definitive end of the spectrum, whether it's the Believer or Atheistic end of things is really quite equitable. It's the same as being either politically far right wing conservative or far left wing liberal. I think the middle ground offers the best perspective and hope for some kind of truth, and if not truth, at least the best realistically honest perspective. In reality, no one knows. You can't be all one thing and expect to maintain a balance. It is the definitiveness of religion that turns me off more than anything, and this is the same with atheism. Claiming to know for an undisputable fact what cannot be known.

Science doesn't disprove anything about God, just about certain dogmas of religion. The creation story of adam and eve for example, which I don't think much anyone considered literally anyways.

I think it's easy for atheists to consider God and religion synonymous and insperable, or at least choose poor wording and make it seem like thats what they mean. Disproving Islam, or Christianity or Judaism doctrines of faith has nothing to do with equating to God in it's most basic context not existing.

[Alkarin]

I guess I'm just saying that science can't explain it all. And science and religion don't necessarily have to cancel each other out. Most scientists maintain religious beliefs. Proving that the Earth is so many years old does not prove that God couldn't have made it. Proving that germs and virus cause illness doesn't prove that Gods hand/will is not the force that moves it. Proving that man evolved from ape does not prove that God did not facilitate this system.

Science answers many questions yes, but it raises new ones along the way.

im going to have to tear apart at this part.

science CAN explain everything logically. just because of human fallacy with prior laws and not being exposed to new theories the laws in themselves were not correct. And 93% of scientists are either Atheist or Agnostic. But your statement on god does make sense and i agree with it to some extent. I still believe theirs a possibility to god why shouldnt I? It has not been PROVEN otherwise but it also has not been PROVEN to exist either. The only types of belief in god i could ever see myself believing in is either Deism (belief in god created the universe then left it alone) or believing in god in the poetic sense that Einstein believed in it. That science and the universe is god. and that everyone and everything is god. Basically accepted the fact that their is no god and inturn our very selves are god along with all the matter of the universe and we should respect that.

sure science brings up more questions..but atleast it can eventually answer them

I do completely agree with the idea that god can exist for i would be very ignorant/arrogant to say otherwise. But im 99% (since theirs ALWAYS that possibility) that all current religions on earth are all false.

I found this discussion by Richard Dawkins and Steven Weinberg completely correct.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=edsDrqfDVKY&NR=1

[uos_spo6]

im going to have to tear apart at this part.

science CAN explain everything logically. just because of human fallacy with prior laws and not being exposed to new theories the laws in themselves were not correct.

Well I'm glad we have some middle ground to consider.

I'll have to agree to disagree about science though purely out of personal opinion. Correct me if I'm misinterpreting what you're saying, but you are saying science holds the potential to explain all and we have simply not reached that pinnacle of science yet?

Perhaps one day, science would become so complete and refined that in fact, EVERYTHING, can be explained by it. . . but that thought is scary in it of itself.

How simplistic would things really be if it were possible to understand them all? Sounds cheap to me. I certainly hope the universe doesn't work like that, and hopefully there are secrets and mechanics and forces within the universe that we will never understand because otherwise that'd be pretty boring and pretty much kill all the wonders of human imagination.

If mankind possesses the talent and attributes to take science to that point, where nothing is a mystery anymore, then that's kind of like beating a video game. Life begins to lose it's luster when there is nothing left to the imagination or to wonder about.

I also don't think mankind is THAT clever. I don't think mortal beings possess the inherent ability to completely wrap their heads around a LOT of ideas that are out there in the universe. I think there's a big difference between "Explaining" and "Understanding" though. . . I will conceed Science can explain a lot, but that doesn't equate to understanding of it.

[Alkarin]

Well I'm glad we have some middle ground to consider.

I'll have to agree to disagree about science though purely out of personal opinion. Correct me if I'm misinterpreting what you're saying, but you are saying science holds the potential to explain all and we have simply not reached that pinnacle of science yet?

Perhaps one day, science would become so complete and refined that in fact, EVERYTHING, can be explained by it. . . but that thought is scary in it of itself.

How simplistic would things really be if it were possible to understand them all? Sounds cheap to me. I certainly hope the universe doesn't work like that, and hopefully there are secrets and mechanics and forces within the universe that we will never understand because otherwise that'd be pretty boring and pretty much kill all the wonders of human imagination.

If mankind possesses the talent and attributes to take science to that point, where nothing is a mystery anymore, then that's kind of like beating a video game. Life begins to lose it's luster when there is nothing left to the imagination or to wonder about.

I also don't think mankind is THAT clever. I don't think mortal beings possess the inherent ability to completely wrap their heads around a LOT of ideas that are out there in the universe. I think there's a big difference between "Explaining" and "Understanding" though. . . I will conceed Science can explain a lot, but that doesn't equate to understanding of it.

yes thats the statement i stand by. although it seems your side of the sword is that you dont want science to be that simple since that would end up making it boring/dull and one day we will find everything out? So basically for the sake of argument you wish it was not so? (which is still a viable standpoint) Although i also dont believe man kind (in its current form) even has the ability to conceive most mysteries in the universe which i agree with you on.

[Ó Cathasaigh]

I don't have the faith to believe all this is the came at random chance. Nor do I have the arrogance or feelings of superiority to suggest the following.

science CAN explain everything logically.

Existence of matter. Go.

[Tankbuster]

Let's not derail the thread just quite yet, OK guys?
I'm also interested in the answer to the OP's question.

[Tuor]

I don't have the faith to believe all this is the came at random chance. Nor do I have the arrogance or feelings of superiority to suggest the following.


Existence of matter. Go.

What a corner you've put him in. Just because he said it CAN be explained doesn't mean he thinks it's possible at this very moment. Think on that one for a bit.

EDIT: I agree with Tankbuster's opinion of the OP, btw. I think everyone at some point has wanted or even needed to believe in a greater being. Just because they change their minds later doesn't mean that he doesn't exist though.

[Alkarin]

non existence of matter(end of the universe? before the universe's creation?) go.

I can easily say i dont know yet i can stand by my statement. wether humans will ever find out the logical explanation for something or not does not mean that that logical explanation does not exist.

[Ó Cathasaigh]

wether humans will ever find out the logical explanation for something or not does not mean that that logical explanation does not exist.

That does not mean it does either! We don't know, Science has not led us to an answer. It could, and it may never. I stand by my statement that it takes an incredible amount of faith to believe all life sprung by chance and chance alone.

EDIT: not even life itself, but matter as well.

[Aldgarkalaughskel]

This question is aimed at currently religious people/people who have ever been religious ever in their lives.

As im sure you know im an Agnostic/Atheist and believe only in what science can prove. I have NEVER throughout the entire period of my life ever truly believe their was any type of supernatural being what so ever. I have even (when i was young) tried to force myself to believe their was due to the fact my mother was and still is devoutly christian but i just found the idea of religion utter crap. Even at the age of 8 I was unsatisfactory with the answer 'god created himself' and how their was absolutely nothing before god. There has to be something before him since you can't create something out of nothing. Anyways we can rant about the fundamentals of religion in another thread. Basically my question is How on earth could you honestly and truely believe their was a god? Ever praying even though you were not told due but you did it out of your faith. Even Fellow Atheists who were once religious i just literally can not phatom how you can honestly believe in any sort of god at all ever in your life. Hopefully i have not come off too rude but it really does just confuse me. Care to shed light on the subject?

I have a question for you. Since you can't be Agnostic / Atheist at the same time and you can't possibly arrive at mature views regarding transcendence at the age of 8 don't you think you should devote a little bit of time to research subject before asking obvious questions?

[Tuor]

I have a question for you. Since you can't be Agnostic / Atheist at the same time and you can't possibly arrive at mature views regarding transcendence at the age of 8 don't you think you should devote a little bit of time to research subject before asking obvious questions?

You mean, you didn't arrive at mature views regarding transcendence at the age of 8? You need to broaden your mind of the possibilities of an intelligent 8 year old grasping philosophical concepts before you call someone's question stupid.

[Phier]

I have a question for you. Since you can't be Agnostic / Atheist at the same time and you can't possibly arrive at mature views regarding transcendence at the age of 8 don't you think you should devote a little bit of time to research subject before asking obvious questions?

I've been an atheist since I was 8. Its 30+ years later, I still am, and I've examined the question many many many times since then. The concept of god or a non-god is not based on complexity, that is saved for human sophistry.

[Aldgarkalaughskel]

I've been an atheist since I was 8. Its 30+ years later, I still am, and I've examined the question many many many times since then. The concept of god or a non-god is not based on complexity, that is saved for human sophistry.

Perhaps you didn't have the courage to challenge your "childish" Atheism?

[uos_spo6]

Perhaps you didn't have the courage to challenge your "childish" Atheism?

You would characterize Atheism as childish? In what aspect and compared to what though?

[Aldgarkalaughskel]

You would characterize Atheism as childish? In what aspect and compared to what though?

I was referring to the fact admitted by two Atheists in this thread that they hold their beliefs since the age of 8. It indicates the lack of spiritual development and/or intellectual development with regard to metaphysics. They gave up searching for answers to unanswered questions deep down in their minds because it would make them feel uncomfortable.

As Ó Cathasaigh said explain the existence of matter. Go.

[Phier]

Perhaps you didn't have the courage to challenge your "childish" Atheism?

But I had the courage at 8 to tell my mother I didn't believe what she wanted me to believe

I was very confused at that age about religion. If that stuff was real, it was IMPORTANT, yet people seemed to be ignoring it, taking it as they wanted, not doing what they should. I started going to Church daily, on my own, before school (easy enough it was a Catholic school). I'm not sure how long I was doing it for before it struck me, people liked the IDEA of religion, they didn't relieve believe in it, and the whole concept was ridiculous.

I feel precocious Einstein claimed his epiphany came at 13

Religion is the oldest form of brainwashing of children known. I have a spiffy idea. Lets not teach religion until you are old enough to think of it rationally. No church, mosque, temple, etc until say 18. Lets see how that goes.

[Alkarin]

Well if you understood common English grammatical symbols you would know that a / signifies either OR. Quite revolutionary if you ask me. And telling me to do a little more research before asking stupid questions...well i find that offensive. I was not attacking anyone in my opening post and merely was asking how you could believe such a thing since i am honestly just curious on the subject.

[Aldgarkalaughskel]

Well if you understood common English grammatical symbols you would know that a / signifies either OR. Quite revolutionary if you ask me. And telling me to do a little more research before asking stupid questions...well i find that offensive.

Oh how nice. I said OBVIOUS not stupid, please pay attention. I understand common English grammatical symbols, perhaps if you could use them properly to construct sentences that make sense, you would stop losing face with your first post. You can't be Agnostic or Atheist, you need to decide between the two. That's all.