Page 1 of 14 1234567891011 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 332

Thread: United States Healthcare Reform Thread (several merged)

Hybrid View

Previous Post Previous Post   Next Post Next Post
  1. #1

    Default United States Healthcare Reform Thread (several merged)

    Ezekiel Emanuel, Obama's 'Deadly Doctor,' Strikes Back

    By MICHAEL SCHERER / WASHINGTON Michael Scherer / Washington – Wed Aug 12, 3:25 pm ET
    Dr. Ezekiel Emanuel, the medical ethicist and oncologist who advises President Obama, does not own a television, and if you catch him in a typically energized moment, when his mind speeds even faster than his mouth, he is likely to blurt out something like, "I hate the Internet." So it took him several days in late July to discover he had been singled out by opponents of health-care reform as a "deadly doctor," who, according to an opinion column in the New York Post, wanted to limit medical care for "a grandmother with Parkinson's or a child with cerebral palsy." (Read an interview with Obama on health care.)


    "I couldn't believe this was happening to me," says Emanuel, who in addition to spending his career opposing euthanasia and working to increase the quality of care for dying patients is the brother of White House chief of staff Rahm Emanuel. "It is incredible how much one's reputation can be besmirched and taken out of context." (See pictures of health care for the uninsured.)


    It would only get worse. Within days, the Post article, with selective and misleading quotes from Emanuel's 200 or so published academic papers, went viral. Minnesota Representative Michelle Bachmann, a fierce opponent of Obama's reform plans, read large portions of it on the House floor. "Watch out if you are disabled!" she warned. Days later, in an online posting, former Alaska Governor Sarah Palin attacked Emanuel's "Orwellian thinking," which she suggested would lead to a "downright evil" system that would employ a "death panel" to decide who gets lifesaving health care. By Aug. 10, hysteria had begun to take over in places. Mike Sola, whose son has cerebral palsy, turned up at a Michigan town-hall meeting to shout out concerns about what he regarded as Obama and Emanuel's plans to deny treatment to their family. Later, in an interview on Fox News, Sola held up the Post article. "Every American needs to read this," he declared. (Read "What Health-Care Reform Really Means.")


    By this point, Emanuel, who has a sister who suffers from cerebral palsy, had arrived in northern Italy, where he planned to spend a week on vacation, hiking in the Dolomites. Instead, he found himself calling the White House, offering to book a plane home to defend his name. "As an academic, what do you have? You have the quality of your work and the integrity with which you do it," he said by phone from the Italian Alps. "If it requires canceling a week's long vacation, what's the big deal?" (Read TIME's cover story "Can Obama Find a Cure?")


    The attacks on Emanuel are a reminder that there is a narrow slice of Americans who not only don't trust government, but also have come to regard it as a dark conspirator in their lives. This peculiar brand of distrust helps create the conditions for fast-moving fear-mongering, especially on complex and emotionally charged topics like the life and death of the elderly and infirm. Prairie fires of that kind are hard to douse when the Administration's own plan for health care remains vague, weeks away from being ready for a public rollout. The health-care bill that recently passed the House does not contain, as some have suggested, any provisions that would deny treatment to the elderly, infirm or disabled like Sola's son. One provision allows doctors to be reimbursed for voluntary discussions of so-called living wills with patients, but does not in any way threaten to deny treatment to dying patients against their will. The legislation anticipates saving hundreds of billions of dollars by reforming the health-care system itself, a process that would try to increase the efficiency of medical care by better connecting payments to health outcomes and discouraging doctors from unnecessary tests and procedures. The Obama Administration hopes that many of these reforms will be made in the coming years by independent panels of scientists, who will be appointed by the President and overseen by Congress. (See 10 health-care-reform players.)


    This is where the criticism of Emanuel enters the picture, since he is just the sort of scientist who might be appointed to one of those panels. For decades, Emanuel has studied the ethics of medical care, especially in situations where a scarcity of resources requires hard decisions to be made. His work sometimes deals with the hardest possible decisions, like how to choose who gets a single kidney if there are three patients in need, or the reasons that doctors order tests with little medical value. Emanuel's reputation ranks him among the top members of his field. He is published often in the best journals; he has been given multiple awards for work to improve end-of-life care. At the White House, he has taken a free-floating role at the Office of Management and Budget, advising on a wide range of health issues.


    But in a country where trust is in short supply, Emanuel has become a proxy for all the worst fears of government efforts to rein in costs by denying care. "The fundamental danger is that the American people are being asked to delegate all these life-influencing decisions," explains Betsy McCaughey, the conservative scholar who wrote the New York Post attack on Emanuel. "There is a lack of transparency here."


    In her Post article, McCaughey paints the worst possible image of Emanuel, quoting him, for instance, endorsing age discrimination for health-care distribution, without mentioning that he was only addressing extreme cases like organ donation, where there is an absolute scarcity of resources. She quotes him discussing the denial of care for people with dementia without revealing that Emanuel only mentioned dementia in a discussion of theoretical approaches, not an endorsement of a particular policy. She notes that he has criticized medical culture for trying to do everything for a patient, "regardless of the cost or effects on others," without making clear that he was not speaking of lifesaving care but of treatments with little demonstrated value. "No one who has read what I have done for 25 years would come to the conclusions that have been put out there," says Emanuel. "My quotes were just being taken out of context."


    For Emanuel, the entire experience has been a painful education in the sometimes brutal ways of politics, something his brother has long endured and dolled out. "I guess I have a better appreciation for what Rahm had to go through for years and years," Emanuel says. But that appreciation does not solve the question raised by the controversy. There is universal understanding that the nation's fiscal course is doomed without major changes to health care, but whom will the American people trust to carry it out?


    Emanuel, for his part, plans to continue his work, which is focused on finding the most equitable and ethical way for this reform to be carried out, even if he has opted against returning from the Italian Alps. "I am an Emanuel," he says. "We are pretty thick-skinned. I am not going to change my colors. I am not going to crawl under a rock."
    Ignorance is the state in which one lacks knowledge, is unaware of something or chooses to subjectively ignore information.

    Michelle Bachmann (you'd think this woman would just shut up already) and Sarah Palin!? Truly intellectual giants of the Republican Party.

    Once again the Republican Party resorts to fearmongering to sway public opinion. What's worst of all is that once again Republican supporters seem to consist of mainly ignorant people. Or in the least the intelligent rational ones remain silent while the doofuses get all the attention. It's a bad situation either way.

    Mike Sola, the Michigan father, is clearly ignorant of the facts. By his own actions it can be inferred that he gets his information from an admittedly biased source. His choice. It's also clear from the article that Mr. Sola should've spent an hour researching the topic instead of using it to drive 70 miles to demand answers to factual distortions.

    Fact-checking claims about health care reform. This is a video using the questions/shouts of actual people attending these meetings/rallies to show just how ignorant they really are. It's the same as the election where people were shouting that Obama's a Muslim or not really an American.

    Is winning or not allowing the other guy to win so important to this party that they'll do anything?

    I've said it in the past, even started a thread about it, that Republicans just seem to be mean self centered people. In trying to think of a comparable organization, to Republicans, the first organized body that popped into my mind was the Taliban. A fundamentalist group with an extremely narrow world view who feel justified in forcing their beliefs on others even if it means destroying their own country in the process. Furthermore, they're both organizations that frown on dissenters/different perspectives. Look at what happens to GOP'ers who express a different opinion than the party line.

    Can't the rational Republicans do something about the irrational ones?





    Quote Originally Posted by Copperknickers View Post
    "whatchutalkinboutwillis!?"

    Whos Willis?

  2. #2

    Default Re: Republicans, fearmongering and ignorance

    I heard Obama can write, an improvement, the last one couldn't even speak properly...


    Greetz

    Nick

  3. #3
    MathiasOfAthens's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Stockholm, Sverige
    Posts
    22,877

    Default Re: Republicans, fearmongering and ignorance

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick_Since_1985 View Post
    I heard Obama can write, an improvement, the last one couldn't even speak properly...


    Greetz

    Nick
    The current one was a professor at a university, also a vast improvement over the previous one who was a c-student.

    Why do the Republicans pick people with very little education experience.


    Anyway, I think things will change in 15-20 years when the older generation of die hard republicans like Palin, and commentators like O'reilly and GB are pushed out of the limelight. Eventually the younger population will be able to change the topics.
    Last edited by MathiasOfAthens; August 13, 2009 at 07:36 AM.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Republicans, fearmongering and ignorance

    Quote Originally Posted by MathiasOfAthens View Post
    The current one was a professor at a university, also a vast improvement over the previous one who was a c-student.

    Why do the Republicans pick people with very little education experience.
    Becuase they want to attrackt people with little education and experience.
    And overall, the 2 party system is fail.

  5. #5
    Erik's Avatar Dux Limitis
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Amsterdam
    Posts
    15,653

    Default Re: Republicans, fearmongering and ignorance

    Quote Originally Posted by MathiasOfAthens View Post
    Anyway, I think things will change in 15-20 years when the older generation of die hard republicans like Palin, and commentators like O'reilly and GB are pushed out of the limelight. Eventually the younger population will be able to change the topics.
    I thought Palin is considered part of the younger generation?

    Do you really think younger Republicans are less ignorant than the older ones?
    I get the feeling it's exactly the other way around.



  6. #6
    MathiasOfAthens's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Stockholm, Sverige
    Posts
    22,877

    Default Re: Republicans, fearmongering and ignorance

    Quote Originally Posted by Erik View Post
    I thought Palin is considered part of the younger generation?

    Do you really think younger Republicans are less ignorant than the older ones?
    I get the feeling it's exactly the other way around.
    Palin is acting and thinking just like the cheney-rumsfeld group, blame everyone else and oppose everything the Dems think and propose.

    I dont need to describe the type of republicans shown at rallies, McCain daughter doesnt seem very ignorant, neither does Colin Powell, but they are part of the minority within the Republican Party, the moderates.

  7. #7
    gaunty14's Avatar Vicarius
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    UK, somewhere in the middle of England
    Posts
    2,629

    Default Re: Republicans, fearmongering and ignorance

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick_Since_1985 View Post
    I heard Obama can write, an improvement, the last one couldn't even speak properly...


    Greetz

    Nick

    not too mention he couldn't tell the differance between a doorway and a closet

    "will help build battle station for food" - or rep

  8. #8
    Kjertesvein's Avatar Remember to smile
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Miðaldir
    Posts
    6,679
    Tournaments Joined
    1
    Tournaments Won
    0

    Default Re: Republicans, fearmongering and ignorance

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick_Since_1985 View Post
    I heard Obama can write, an improvement, the last one couldn't even speak properly...


    Greetz

    Nick
    You don't get it, the president is so focused with national security, that he can't focus on other things...
    Thorolf was thus armed. Then Thorolf became so furious that he cast his shield on his back, and, grasping his halberd with both hands, bounded forward dealing cut and thrust on either side. Men sprang away from him both ways, but he slew many. Thus he cleared the way forward to earl Hring's standard, and then nothing could stop him. He slew the man who bore the earl's standard, and cut down the standard-pole. After that he lunged with his halberd at the earl's breast, driving it right through mail and body, so that it came out at the shoulders; and he lifted him up on the halberd over his head, and planted the butt-end in the ground. There on the weapon the earl breathed out his life in sight of all, both friends and foes. [...] 53, Egil's Saga
    I must tell you here of some amusing tricks the Comte d'Eu played on us. I had made a sort of house for myself in which my knights and I used to eat, sitting so as to get the light from the door, which, as it happened, faced the Comte d'Eu's quarters. The count, who was a very ingenious fellow, had rigged up a miniature ballistic machine with which he could throw stones into my tent. He would watch us as we were having our meal, adjust his machine to suit the length of our table, and then let fly at us, breaking our pots and glasses.
    - The pranks played on the knight Jean de Joinville, 1249, 7th crusade.













    http://imgur.com/a/DMm19
    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    This is the only forum I visit with any sort of frequency and I'm glad it has provided a home for RTR since its own forum went down in 2007. Hopefully my donation along with others from TWC users will help get the site back to its speedy heyday, which will certainly aid us in our endeavor to produce a full conversion mod Rome2.

  9. #9

    Icon6 Re: Republicans, fearmongering and ignorance

    I heard Obama can write, an improvement, the last one couldn't even speak properly...


    Greetz

    Nick
    not so fast


    Know god, no fear
    No god, Know fear

  10. #10
    Centurion-Lucius-Vorenus's Avatar Protector Domesticus
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    In a cottage cheese cottage in Levittown, New york
    Posts
    4,219

    Default Re: Republicans, fearmongering and ignorance

    Quote Originally Posted by Hannibal the destroy View Post
    not so fast
    So the guy who was the first president of the Harvard law review was stupid ?

    Really...

  11. #11
    awisler's Avatar Senator
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    1,193

    Default Re: Republicans, fearmongering and ignorance

    Quote Originally Posted by Centurion-Lucius-Vorenus View Post
    So the guy who was the first president of the Harvard law review was stupid ?

    Really...
    No, he is a certifiable genius. Politics and favoritism in no way play a role in such college situations, especially at Ivy League schools where you are definitely not admitted just because of your family members that attended and the money you have.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Republicans, fearmongering and ignorance

    Quote Originally Posted by awisler View Post
    No, he is a certifiable genius. Politics and favoritism in no way play a role in such college situations, especially at Ivy League schools where you are definitely not admitted just because of your family members that attended and the money you have.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Republicans, fearmongering and ignorance

    Quote Originally Posted by awisler View Post
    No, he is a certifiable genius. Politics and favoritism in no way play a role in such college situations, especially at Ivy League schools where you are definitely not admitted just because of your family members that attended and the money you have.
    Wait...which of Obama's family members and how rich were they?
    One thing is for certain: the more profoundly baffled you have been in your life, the more open your mind becomes to new ideas.
    -Neil deGrasse Tyson

    Let's think the unthinkable, let's do the undoable. Let us prepare to grapple with the ineffable itself, and see if we may not eff it after all.

  14. #14
    awisler's Avatar Senator
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    1,193

    Default Re: Republicans, fearmongering and ignorance

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidin View Post
    Wait...which of Obama's family members and how rich were they?
    http://www.cashill.com/natl_general/...ama_is_mum.htm

  15. #15
    MathiasOfAthens's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Stockholm, Sverige
    Posts
    22,877

    Default Re: Republicans, fearmongering and ignorance

    So he says "uh" a lot, he still knows what hes talking about.

  16. #16

    Default Re: Republicans, fearmongering and ignorance

    Please excuse me if I do not wish to travel down the road of rationing and euthanasia that Emanuel alludes and Obama specifically endorsed. It doesn't matter if the bill doesn't directly includes those things, I won't concede one inch of ground to such beasts.

    I would no more trust a NAMBLA member with a day care than I would trust Obama running health care.

    Last edited by The Devil's Sergeant; August 13, 2009 at 08:08 AM.

  17. #17
    TestudoAubreii's Avatar Bugger Bamfield!
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Just north of Shellback.
    Posts
    1,865

    Default Re: Republicans, fearmongering and ignorance

    Quote Originally Posted by The Devil's Sergeant View Post
    Please excuse me if I do not wish to travel down the road of rationing and euthanasia that Emanuel alludes and Obama specifically endorsed. It doesn't matter if the bill doesn't directly includes those things, I won't concede one inch of ground to such beasts.

    I would no more trust a NAMBLA member with a day care than I would trust Obama running health care.

    That is a pretty harsh and unfair comparison. Obama and NAMBLA, really? No one is saying that there are going to be these so-called "death panels". Look, the bottom line is that the health in the U.S. is bad. France has one of the best nationalized hybrid health care systems in the world. Why can't the U.S. go to something like that? Is it because the quality in care will go down? Is it because doctors will be underpaid? No. It is because we have become so self-absorbed that we no longer care what happens to anyone else. In a sense, we (the U.S.) come across as selfish and elitist. A nationalized health care system in America will do nothing more than to help people who need health care. If you do not wish to partake in this, you will have an option to stick with your own. Is that so hard to understand? Do you (and I speak to all that think that this is a bad thing) not wish to help out your fellow man, your fellow citizens?

    Many people talk about this euthanasia stuff and have no idea what is going on. No one is going to receive less care or even get the plug pulled on them if they do not pass the "death panel". Many people use Britain and Canada's NHS as examples of what it will be like if the U.S. adopts a similar system. Do you know what? Did Stephen Hawking get pushed to the side to die in Britain? No, he didn't and he is alive right now because of this horrible and vilified national health care system. I honestly do not know why people are so afraid. What do you think is really going to happen? This fight right now is simply paranoia of the unknown, because we've never had anything like nationalized health care, so we do not know how it will go. All this town hall quarreling and bickering about health car is going on because no one wants to have an open mind and an open heart.

    I just don't get the mind set of some people sometimes.

    morrisonicus


  18. #18

    Default Re: Republicans, fearmongering and ignorance

    Quote Originally Posted by The Devil's Sergeant View Post
    Please excuse me if I do not wish to travel down the road of rationing and euthanasia that Emanuel alludes and Obama specifically endorsed. It doesn't matter if the bill doesn't directly includes those things, I won't concede one inch of ground to such beasts.
    In other words: the truth doesn't matter.

    Ignorance is the state in which one lacks knowledge, is unaware of something or chooses to subjectively ignore information.


    You're plainly stating that despite the fact that the bill doesn't do the things you're against you're still against it because...umm...Obama is the President? I'm sorry, I honestly can't find any other logical justification for your stance.

    It's clear how you feel about Obama, you called him a beast, but do you have to distort the truth or support its' distortion to sway people to your opinion?

    I would no more trust a NAMBLA member with a day care than I would trust Obama running health care.
    What if it was an all girls day care?

    Regardless, where in any legislation has it been suggested that Obama would run health care?


    What's the point of this? The woman asked if there would be some consideration for a person's "spirit/love of life" in making decisions or would it strictly be based on medical criteria. Obama clearly stated that was a decision between families and their doctors. Obama then went on to give a typical politicians answer and restated one of his points: cutting the costs associated with Dr's charging for services known not to work. The example he gave was related to surgery vs. pain medication.

    A politician didn't answer a question directly but opted to restate their message. Whoa, that's a major news flash!

    People that believe that universal healthcare is an extension of authoritarian government do not understand universal systems at all.
    That's why I posted the definition of "ignorance."

    In order to do what you're suggesting it would require someone spend an hour or so researching a topic. In places other than the Fox News website. That must be too hard for them. It's much easier to believe the first thing a head tells you and to grab your gun and rush to the nearest rally.

    I suppose I shouldn't blame them. They're simple people after all expecting them to understand complex issues might be asking too much.
    Last edited by morteduzionism; August 13, 2009 at 08:44 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Copperknickers View Post
    "whatchutalkinboutwillis!?"

    Whos Willis?

  19. #19

    Default Re: Republicans, fearmongering and ignorance

    that's actually the reason I think MOST of the those opposed really are...anti-Obama. Has nothing at all to do with health care reforms.
    "oooh a gypsy wind is blowing warm tonight, sky is starlit and the time is right. Now you're telling me you have to go...before you do there's something you should know." - Bob Seger

    Freedom is the distance between church and state.

  20. #20
    TestudoAubreii's Avatar Bugger Bamfield!
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Just north of Shellback.
    Posts
    1,865

    Default Re: Republicans, fearmongering and ignorance

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikelus Trento View Post
    that's actually the reason I think MOST of the those opposed really are...anti-Obama. Has nothing at all to do with health care reforms.
    Well stated. I agree. Many people can deal with Obama being in office, period. It is a sad commentary when you put the health and welfare of your fellow man and your fellow citizens on the line just because they can't handle Obama being in office.

    morrisonicus


Page 1 of 14 1234567891011 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •