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Thread: French Muslim woman barred from pool for donning head-to-toe swim suit

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    Default French Muslim woman barred from pool for donning head-to-toe swim suit

    http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/n...,3931524.story

    PARIS (AP) — A Muslim woman garbed in a head-to-toe swimsuit — dubbed a "burquini" — may have opened a new chapter in France's tussle between religious practices and its stern secular code.

    Officials insisted Wednesday they banned the woman's use of the Islam-friendly suit at a local pool because of France's pool hygiene standards — not out of hostility to overtly Muslim garb.

    Under the policy, swimmers are not allowed in pools with baggy clothing, including surfer-style shorts. Only figure-hugging suits are permitted.

    Nonetheless the woman, a 35-year-old convert to Islam identified only as Carole, complained of religious discrimination after trying to go swimming in a "burquini," a full-body swimsuit, in the town of Emerainville, southeast of Paris.

    She was quoted as telling the daily Le Parisien newspaper that she had bought the burquini after deciding "it would allow me the pleasure of bathing without showing too much of myself, as Islam recommends."

    "For me this is nothing but segregation," she said.

    The issue of religious attire is a hot topic in France, where head-to-toe burqas or other full-body coverings worn by some Muslim fundamentalists are in official disfavor.

    France is home to western Europe's largest Muslim population, estimated at 5 million, and Islam is the nation's second religion after Roman Catholicism.

    A 2004 law banning the wearing of Muslim head scarves at public schools sparked fierce debate. That legislation also banned Jewish skullcaps and large Christian crosses in public classrooms.

    French lawmakers recently revived the issue of Muslim dress with a proposal that the burqa and other voluminous Muslim attire be banned.

    President Nicolas Sarkozy, a conservative, backs the move, saying such garb makes women prisoners.

    The "burquini" covers the arms to the wrists and the legs to the ankle and has a hood to cover neck and hair.

    An official in charge of swimming pools for the Emerainville region, Daniel Guillaume, said the refusal to allow the local woman to swim in her "burquini" had nothing to do with religion and everything to do with public health standards.

    "These clothes are used in public, so they can contain molecules, viruses, et cetera, which will go in the water and could be transmitted to other bathers," Guillaume said in a telephone interview.

    "We reminded this woman that one should not bathe all dressed, just as we would tell someone who is a nudist not to bathe all naked," he said.

    Guillaume said France's public health standards require all pool-goers to don swimsuits for women and tight, swimming briefs for men — and caps to cover their hair. Bathers also must shower before entering the water.

    Guillaume said Carole had tried to file a complaint at a local police station, but her request was turned down as groundless.

    Carole told the daily Le Parisien she would protest with the help of anti-discrimination groups.

    Emerainville Mayor Alan Kelyor said he could not understand why the woman would want to swim in head-to-toe clothes.

    "We are going back in civilization," he said by telephone. Women have fought for decades for equal rights with men, he said. "Now we are putting them back in burqas and veils."

    The suits have a clear market.

    Women "jump on the occasion so they can swim with their families. Otherwise, they end up staying on the beach and watching," said Leila Mouhoubia, who runs an online site from France that specializes in the sale of Islamic swimsuits. Sales, she said, are strong.

    "I think it's forbidden (in France) because it presents an image of the Muslim woman (and) they have prejudices against Muslims," she said by telephone. "They want women to be undressed."

    Mouloud Aounit, head of the anti-racism group known as MRAP, said the decision to ban Carole from the pool appeared fair, since pool authorities were observing regulations. But Aounit lamented that the incident was likely to fuel religious tensions.

    "The rules must be the same for everybody, regardless of the color of their skin or their religion," Aounit said. "The concern I have is that this case will again lead to stigmatization of the Muslim population in France."

    The all-body suits, worn regularly by some women in Muslim countries, are growing popular in the West. They can be seen on female Muslim lifeguards on Australian beaches, in the United States and various European countries, from the Netherlands to Sweden — which OKed them after two women won discrimination cases last year.
    Your thoughts?

  2. #2
    Amry's Avatar Ducenarius
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    Default Re: French Muslim woman barred from pool for donning head-to-toe swim suit

    I think it's a daft ruling in part of the authorities, but as long as it applies to everyone and without malice, I would have to, sadly, agree with it. Although to be frank, I don't really see the "hygiene" point; more clothes = less hygenic?

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    Del Valle's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: French Muslim woman barred from pool for donning head-to-toe swim suit

    That's a really weird pool policy.

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    Default Re: French Muslim woman barred from pool for donning head-to-toe swim suit

    Weird law, but if the Burquini doesn't meet requirements then too bad for her.

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    Erik's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: French Muslim woman barred from pool for donning head-to-toe swim suit

    Quote Originally Posted by Del Valle View Post
    That's a really weird pool policy.
    Very common in France, though.

    I have been banned from French swimming pools on countless occasions, always for wearing a surfer style swimming short, or not wearing a swimming cap.
    I think all French pools have that policy, and the majority of them actively enforce it as well.

    I always brought my speedo's (and my cap) too though, so after a quick change of clothes I could always enter.

    ps: this policy has existed for at least 20 years before the "burkini" was invented, so it's clearly not aimed at discriminating Muslims but at embarrassing teenage boys.
    Last edited by Erik; August 12, 2009 at 05:24 PM.



  6. #6

    Default Re: French Muslim woman barred from pool for donning head-to-toe swim suit

    Nothing to think about. A woman is denied services, possibly on the grounds of religion. If she can sue, I presume French law has such provisions, the pool owner will need to justify their actions. A no brainer. I am surprised this is news at all, especially in the US.


    I suspect that the pool official could make his case more difficult by saying, "These clothes are used in public, so they can contain molecules, viruses, et cetera, which will go in the water and could be transmitted to other bathers," My understanding is that Burkinis are swimwear. I cannot see how Islamic swimwear could contain more viruses etc than standard swimwear or indeed the people wearing said swimwear. The Mayor is a prat, he could prejudice the case.


    But it is too early to say, because evidence has not been presented in court.
    Last edited by mongrel; August 12, 2009 at 04:40 PM.
    Absolutley Barking, Mudpit Mutt Former Patron: Garbarsardar

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    SonOfOdin's Avatar More tea?
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    Default Re: French Muslim woman barred from pool for donning head-to-toe swim suit

    Quote Originally Posted by mongrel View Post
    Nothing to think about. A woman is denied services, possibly on the grounds of religion. If she can sue, I presume French law has such provisions, the pool owner will need to justify their actions. A no brainer. I am surprised this is news at all, especially in the US.


    I suspect that the pool official could make his case more difficult by saying, "These clothes are used in public, so they can contain molecules, viruses, et cetera, which will go in the water and could be transmitted to other bathers," My understanding is that Burkinis are swimwear. I cannot see how Islamic swimwear could contain more viruses etc than standard swimwear or indeed the people wearing said swimwear. The Mayor is a prat, he could prejudice the case.


    But it is too early to say, because evidence has not been presented in court.
    Rigghhhtt so if we go to Mecca we have to wear Al Qaeda clothing with turbans and flying carpets and obey their rules but they pretend that can do whatever they want in our lands
    Just perfect
    /The Eagle Standard/Under the patronage of Omnipotent-Q/Werder Bremen fan/

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    Default Re: French Muslim woman barred from pool for donning head-to-toe swim suit

    Quote Originally Posted by SonOfOdin View Post
    Rigghhhtt so if we go to Mecca we have to wear Al Qaeda clothing with turbans and flying carpets and obey their rules but they pretend that can do whatever they want in our lands
    Just perfect
    Hardly an intelligent post. Pity I like Iron Maiden.


    I understand that half the US Army was parked in Saudi once. They still looked liked soldiers and drove Humvees before kicking Saddams arse . That should answer your question. Come back when you have an argument, perhaps when the French courts have decided what to do and we know where the ruling stands.

    Quote Originally Posted by Astor View Post
    @Mongrel
    The way you were going on, anyone would have thought you were from the middle east.
    Convert, are you?
    Anglican Church Warden. You may not know this but humanity can contains a greater variety of people than Muslims and those who would see them eradicated.

    As Thema' hinted, I think you rather embarrassed yourself by suggesting that the woman so go home. She really hasn't far to travel.I am surprised that you commented again given your form.
    Last edited by mongrel; August 28, 2009 at 01:22 PM.
    Absolutley Barking, Mudpit Mutt Former Patron: Garbarsardar

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    dogukan's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: French Muslim woman barred from pool for donning head-to-toe swim suit

    Quote Originally Posted by SonOfOdin View Post
    Rigghhhtt so if we go to Mecca we have to wear Al Qaeda clothing with turbans and flying carpets and obey their rules but they pretend that can do whatever they want in our lands
    Just perfect
    you are west...and that freedom is what makes you west.
    We and them is a wrong thing to say here....because not all the people that migrate to Europe are responsible for what their country does right? Simply, those countries are not developed. And so they put up those ridicolous rules. That doesn't mean you should get some sort of revegne from those who migrate to west. Is it?
    "Therefore I am not in favour of raising any dogmatic banner. On the contrary, we must try to help the dogmatists to clarify their propositions for themselves. Thus, communism, in particular, is a dogmatic abstraction; in which connection, however, I am not thinking of some imaginary and possible communism, but actually existing communism as taught by Cabet, Dézamy, Weitling, etc. This communism is itself only a special expression of the humanistic principle, an expression which is still infected by its antithesis – the private system. Hence the abolition of private property and communism are by no means identical, and it is not accidental but inevitable that communism has seen other socialist doctrines – such as those of Fourier, Proudhon, etc. – arising to confront it because it is itself only a special, one-sided realisation of the socialist principle."
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    Svaline's Avatar Tiro
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    Default Re: French Muslim woman barred from pool for donning head-to-toe swim suit

    This thread, which shouldn't be longer than maybe 2 pages considering it's just basic common sense, if you don't want to follow the pool's dress code then don't go to it, nobody's forcing you, amuses me greatly .

    On the one hand you have most people who take one look at the topic, post a comment saying the pool is allowed to write it's own dress code and are done with it.

    And then we have:

    -The islamophobes which are obviously torn between bashing france or bashing islam.
    -Some british folks who seem to have a compulsive need to post snide comments about france.

  11. #11

    Default Re: French Muslim woman barred from pool for donning head-to-toe swim suit

    Quote Originally Posted by Svaline View Post
    This thread, which shouldn't be longer than maybe 2 pages considering it's just basic common sense, if you don't want to follow the pool's dress code then don't go to it, nobody's forcing you, amuses me greatly .

    On the one hand you have most people who take one look at the topic, post a comment saying the pool is allowed to write it's own dress code and are done with it.

    And then we have:

    -The islamophobes which are obviously torn between bashing france or bashing islam.
    -Some british folks who seem to have a compulsive need to post snide comments about france.
    Or if you had bothered to read the posts, there are laws designed to protect people from discrimination. This French person is merely exercising her right to have her day in court to put forward her case.The merits of the pool owners' case has yet to be tested before a judge. Simple, yet you missed it.
    Absolutley Barking, Mudpit Mutt Former Patron: Garbarsardar

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  12. #12

    Default Re: French Muslim woman barred from pool for donning head-to-toe swim suit

    Not much to say i think, the personnel were following regulations, nothing more or less. Seems it's going to be a problem for muslim women to swim in pools.

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    Default Re: French Muslim woman barred from pool for donning head-to-toe swim suit

    Quote Originally Posted by ImperatorXVIII View Post
    Not much to say i think, the personnel were following regulations, nothing more or less.
    SO WERE THE NAZIS

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    Default Re: French Muslim woman barred from pool for donning head-to-toe swim suit

    Under the policy, swimmers are not allowed in pools with baggy clothing, including surfer-style shorts. Only figure-hugging suits are permitted.
    Case closed.

    /thread.

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    Poach's Avatar Civitate
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    Default Re: French Muslim woman barred from pool for donning head-to-toe swim suit

    Their pool rules said no baggy clothes, she was wearing baggy clothes. She's only crying discrimination because her baggy clothes are religious in nature.

    I agree with the French on this one, their rules are there for a reason and religion shouldn't be excepted from the rules. If only British politicians stuck to their guns like this...
    Last edited by Poach; August 12, 2009 at 04:43 PM.

  16. #16

    Default Re: French Muslim woman barred from pool for donning head-to-toe swim suit

    Quote Originally Posted by ImperatorXVIII View Post
    Not much to say i think, the personnel were following regulations, nothing more or less. Seems it's going to be a problem for muslim women to swim in pools.
    Quote Originally Posted by Poach View Post
    Their pool rules said no baggy clothes, she was wearing baggy clothes. She's only crying discrimination because her baggy clothes are religious in nature.

    I agree with the French on this one, their rules are there for a reason and religion shouldn't be excepted from the rules.
    Unless the law interprets this as a practice that discriminates against certain groups. She is crying discrimination because she was denied services she paid for, presumably. Swimming is not a religious act, unless you count baptism.
    Absolutley Barking, Mudpit Mutt Former Patron: Garbarsardar

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  17. #17

    Default Re: French Muslim woman barred from pool for donning head-to-toe swim suit

    Quote Originally Posted by mongrel View Post
    Unless the law interprets this as a practice that discriminates against certain groups. She is crying discrimination because she was denied services she paid for, presumably. Swimming is not a religious act, unless you count baptism.
    But there shoulden't be anything to interpret wrongly. The law(Edit: Policy) clearly is there for reasons, and this law is hardly some masterplan to attack those people wanting to swim in "muslim bikini's".

    If she think's she was discriminated i think she can sod off. Now i don't know what sanitary effects these baggy swimming clothes may have, but more likely i think this kind of suit can present additional dangers when swimming.
    Last edited by ImperatorXVIII; August 17, 2009 at 04:26 AM.

  18. #18

    Default Re: French Muslim woman barred from pool for donning head-to-toe swim suit

    Quote Originally Posted by ImperatorXVIII View Post
    But there shoulden't be anything to interpret wrongly. The law clearly are there for reasons, and this law is hardly some masterplan to attack those people wanting to swim in "muslim bikini's".

    If she think's she was discriminated i think she can sod off. Now i don't know what sanitary effects these baggy swimming clothes may have, but more likely i think this kind of suit can present additional dangers when swimming.
    Nonsense.

    Every paying customer expects proper service, whether Muslim or not. she has a legal right to demand service and a modest amount of compensation to boot.

    How can one form of swimwear be less sanitary than another or indeed less sanitary than a Gallic arsecrack which would inevitably be exposed in those atrocious Speedos?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sidmen View Post
    They don't have to, just that the policy wasn't discriminatory.
    We can let the Judge decide that.

    The criteria is whether the rules prevent any particular group from enjoying a swim. They do not have to be intentionally discriminatory. I fear that the actions of politicians may damage their case by implying that the rules are intented to exclude Muslims though.
    Last edited by mongrel; August 12, 2009 at 05:07 PM.
    Absolutley Barking, Mudpit Mutt Former Patron: Garbarsardar

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    "Oh Yeah? What about a cricket bat? That's pretty straight. Just off the top of my head..." Al Murray, Pub Landlord.

  19. #19

    Default Re: French Muslim woman barred from pool for donning head-to-toe swim suit

    Quote Originally Posted by mongrel View Post
    Nonsense.

    Every paying customer expects proper service, whether Muslim or not. she has a legal right to demand service and a modest amount of compensation to boot.

    How can one form of swimwear be less sanitary than another or indeed less sanitary than a Gallic arsecrack which would inevitably be exposed in those atrocious Speedos?
    Nonsense? So you think this law is something used to attack muslims? And no, i do not promote discrimination if she has payed as much as the next. But there is the law, and everyone oughta be the same under it.

    Whether or not this law is a good or close to useless sanitary meassure, i do not know. What i do know that it is the law at the moment, if it's very neccesary or not is another discussion.
    Last edited by ImperatorXVIII; August 12, 2009 at 05:14 PM.

  20. #20
    Copperknickers II's Avatar quaeri, si sapis
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    Default Re: French Muslim woman barred from pool for donning head-to-toe swim suit

    Quote Originally Posted by ImperatorXVIII View Post
    But there shoulden't be anything to interpret wrongly. The law clearly are there for reasons, and this law is hardly some masterplan to attack those people wanting to swim in "muslim bikini's".

    If she think's she was discriminated i think she can sod off. Now i don't know what sanitary effects these baggy swimming clothes may have, but more likely i think this kind of suit can present additional dangers when swimming.
    Seconded, abosulutely +rep
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