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  1. #1

    Default As To Character Traits

    So after I ran into something very odd in terms character traits, I have decided that I am going to investigate and expand the character traits files and triggers in order to bring more immersive and better defined gameplay.

    My situation was that I started a campaign as England and worked really hard to get Richard the Lionheart to a pious, chivalrous, and all around exemplary status only to put him in London for a few turns to give me an income boost while fighting the Irish and the French to have him develop the alcoholic trait and then his son immediately came of age with one of the more worse sobriety traits. This totally screwed my characters and I began to think to myself why does a person with like 7 piety, 9 chivalry, and 8 command starts suddenly become an alcoholic? Ah yes, a brothel was in London...because i needed spies after all. But the definition of piety and chivalry is moderation...so alcoholic was out of the question supposedly from a realistic perspective as an alcoholic can hardly be considered chivalrous (drunkenness is not conductive to chivalrous behavior).

    Upon investigation, I found that the points acquired for staying in a town with a brothel or higher was very high, like 8, while the threshold for the drink traits was comparatively low.

    I also read another thread that discussed adding a piety or chivalry trigger condition to make generals immune from certain traits. Also I noticed that certain factions have special triats inherent to them that manifest when children come of age, and then I realized that the new factions, Ireland, Wales, T.O., Lithuania, etc. didn't and in addition some cool traits were missing for them.

    One of my generals developed the trait hates scotts, but the scotts were my "ally" not officially, but on friendly terms, while he should have (as he was campaigning against) developed the hates Welsh, or hates Irish trait. Upon investigations, these traits didn't exist! So I thought it would be cool to expand and revise the character traits file to add in a few new sections for the new factions, as well as similar traits toward the new factions, and add a couple conditions to test against for a few traits that would make more sense and make developing characters more fun and realistic.

    I would like to open this up for discussion as a means of further improving and polishing off this great mod. I mean, if you add new factions, why not add new traits or traits from the kingdoms campaigns to the game for those factions.

    Feedback is welcome, as are suggestions. I would propose the changes either be included in 4.2 or I can throw them into my KGCME, its up to Dave and the community.

    Currently I don't have plans on making this a huge overhaul project like other mods out there, simply a small enhancement, but I'm open to meeting the needs and feedback of the community.

    Progress:

    The first thing I did was add this trait for all 7 new factions:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    ;------------------------------------------
    Trait Fearswales
    Characters family
    AntiTraits Hateswales
    Level Wary_of_Welsh
    Description Wary_of_Welsh_desc
    EffectsDescription Wary_of_Welsh_effects_desc
    Threshold 1
    Effect Combat_V_Faction_Wales -1
    Level Fears_the_Welsh
    Description Fears_the_Welsh_desc
    EffectsDescription Fears_the_Welsh_effects_desc
    Threshold 2
    Effect TroopMorale -1
    Effect Combat_V_Faction_Wales -2
    Level Terrified_of_the_Welsh
    Description Terrified_of_the_Welsh_desc
    EffectsDescription Terrified_of_the_Welsh_effects_desc
    Threshold 4
    Effect TroopMorale -2
    Effect Combat_V_Faction_Wales -3

    ;------------------------------------------
    Trait Hateswales
    Characters family
    NoGoingBackLevel 3
    AntiTraits Fearswales
    Level Dislikes_the_Welsh
    Description Dislikes_the_Welsh_desc
    EffectsDescription Dislikes_the_Welsh_effects_desc
    Threshold 1
    Effect Combat_V_Faction_Wales 1
    Level Hates_the_Welsh
    Description Hates_the_Welsh_desc
    EffectsDescription Hates_the_Welsh_effects_desc
    Threshold 2
    Effect Combat_V_Faction_Wales 2
    Level Loathes_the_Welsh
    Description Loathes_the_Welsh_desc
    EffectsDescription Loathes_the_Welsh_effects_desc
    Threshold 4
    Effect TroopMorale -1
    Effect Combat_V_Faction_Wales 3



    Added in fatherfears hereditary triggers for all 7 new factions and venice (forgotten it seems):

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    ;------------------------------------------
    Trigger dad_FearsVenice
    WhenToTest CharacterComesOfAge
    Condition FatherTrait Fearsvenice >= 1
    Affects Hatesvenice 1 Chance 25


    Added in fatherhates hereditary triggers for all 7 new factions and venice (forgotten it seems):

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    ;------------------------------------------
    Trigger dad_hatesVenice
    WhenToTest CharacterComesOfAge
    Condition FatherTrait Hatesvenice >= 1
    Affects Hatesvenice 1 Chance 25


    Edited random birth in "faction" triggers to include new traits for some factions, and new sections for 7 new factions:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Example:

    ;------------------------------------------
    Trigger random_birth_england
    WhenToTest CharacterComesOfAge
    Condition FactionType england
    Affects Hatesfrance 1 Chance 4
    Affects Hatesscotland 1 Chance 4
    Affects Hateswales 1 Chance 4 <----- added this
    Affects Hatesireland 1 Chance 4 <----- added this
    Affects Brave 1 Chance 4
    Affects Ugly 1 Chance 4


    Changed the sitting_around_with_taverns trigger from 1 trigger with >=brothel to 6 triggers, the first just has the effect of gambling, and no immunity, the other 5 each with a higher level of immunity starting with a chivalry of 3 or piety of 4 and above for brothel. So if your general has a piety of 4 or a chivalry of 3 you can now safely build a brothel without occuring negative drink/girls traits. But be warned, you must have 4C/5P for an inn, 5C/6P for a tavern, 6C/7P for a coaching house, and 7C/8P for a pleasure palace. Any lower and you suffer the full consequences. See below:

    Also, I reserve the right to play test and adjust the immunity levels and triggers.

    The regular sitting_around_in_town trigger also still applies in full, with no immunity as the percentage is already small, and the trigger is valid in my opinion. City folks tend to pick up vices.

    Sitting_around_with_taverns_major also was untouched.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    ;------------------------------------------
    Trigger sitting_around_town_vnv_trigger
    WhenToTest CharacterTurnEnd
    Condition EndedInSettlement
    and RemainingMPPercentage = 100
    and RandomPercent > 90
    Affects Drink 1 Chance 1
    Affects Gambling 1 Chance 1
    Affects Arse 1 Chance 1
    Affects Girls 1 Chance 1
    ;------------------------------------------
    Trigger sitting_around_town_with_taverns1
    WhenToTest CharacterTurnEnd
    Condition EndedInSettlement
    and RemainingMPPercentage = 100
    and SettlementBuildingExists >= brothel
    Affects Gambling 1 Chance 2
    ;------------------------------------------
    Trigger sitting_around_town_with_taverns2
    WhenToTest CharacterTurnEnd
    Condition EndedInSettlement
    and RemainingMPPercentage = 100
    and SettlementBuildingExists = brothel
    and GovernorAttribute Chivalry < 3
    and GovernorAttribute Piety < 4
    Affects Drink 1 Chance 5
    Affects Girls 1 Chance 3
    ;------------------------------------------
    Trigger sitting_around_town_with_taverns3
    WhenToTest CharacterTurnEnd
    Condition EndedInSettlement
    and RemainingMPPercentage = 100
    and SettlementBuildingExists = inn
    and GovernorAttribute Chivalry < 4
    and GovernorAttribute Piety < 5
    Affects Drink 1 Chance 5
    Affects Girls 1 Chance 3
    ;------------------------------------------
    Trigger sitting_around_town_with_taverns4
    WhenToTest CharacterTurnEnd
    Condition EndedInSettlement
    and RemainingMPPercentage = 100
    and SettlementBuildingExists = tavern
    and GovernorAttribute Chivalry < 5
    and GovernorAttribute Piety < 6
    Affects Drink 1 Chance 5
    Affects Girls 1 Chance 3
    ;------------------------------------------
    Trigger sitting_around_town_with_taverns5
    WhenToTest CharacterTurnEnd
    Condition EndedInSettlement
    and RemainingMPPercentage = 100
    and SettlementBuildingExists = coaching_house
    and GovernorAttribute Chivalry < 6
    and GovernorAttribute Piety < 7
    Affects Drink 1 Chance 5
    Affects Girls 1 Chance 3
    ;------------------------------------------
    Trigger sitting_around_town_with_taverns6
    WhenToTest CharacterTurnEnd
    Condition EndedInSettlement
    and RemainingMPPercentage = 100
    and SettlementBuildingExists = pleasure_palace
    and GovernorAttribute Chivalry < 7
    and GovernorAttribute Piety < 8
    Affects Drink 1 Chance 5
    Affects Gambling 1 Chance 1
    Affects Girls 1 Chance 3
    ;------------------------------------------
    Trigger sitting_around_town_with_taverns_major
    WhenToTest CharacterTurnEnd
    Condition EndedInSettlement
    and RemainingMPPercentage = 100
    and SettlementBuildingExists = pleasure_palace
    Affects Perverted 1 Chance 5
    Affects Corrupt 1 Chance 5


    Added in hate_n_fear triggers for all new factions and for russia, and scotland. See example:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    ;------------------------------------------
    Trigger hate_n_fear_20
    WhenToTest PostBattle
    Condition IsGeneral
    and not WonBattle
    and BattleSuccess >= clear
    and I_ConflictType Normal
    and BattleOdds >= 0.5
    and BattleOdds < 1.5
    and GeneralFoughtFaction scotland
    Affects Hatesscotland 1 Chance 40


    Just finished adding and editing all of the text entries. I think they are rather well done. Many I stole straigh from other factions text lines for similar strings. Such as a few scottish lines for ireland, and danish lines for norway.
    Last edited by FortressofRain; August 12, 2009 at 08:30 AM.

  2. #2

    Default Re: As To Character Traits

    ok so to get the idea of what you are intending to do .. your going to be adding a few more traits and what also adding conditions to the triggers of the traits so incase of the sexual and alcohol related ones a pious ( high piety ) can not get these negative traits??

    If thats what you mean makes sense to me i have a few times had characters who gained the title the honorable but then pick up aclohol traits and sexual devience traits LOL never did make sense the honerable dirty old perv

    Heroes Hordes & beyond The official submod of KGCM (click the sig)

  3. #3

    Default Re: As To Character Traits

    Yes. I would effectively limit the ability to pick up both good and bad traits. If you have say >=3 chivalry, or piety you wouldn't be able to get the highest level drink, girls, or other vice traits (like paralytic). >=5 chivalry, or piety and you can't get level 4 (alcoholic). >=7 chivalry, or piety and you can't get level 3 (drunken heathan), etc.

    Bad traits are good. They add flavor. But sometimes they are just rediculous and don't below and I end up cheating to get rid of them when that is treating the symptom not the cause.

    Also I've seen some really good ideas for changing some traits and triggers out there and thought we could use an upgrade. Don't get me wrong. I'm certainly not trying to creat an in-depth uber real micro-management sort of trait and ancillary system like those that are out there, but I would like to see a few improvements, to avoid the retarded example such as above, and nerf that damn pagan magician % chance a little. Also new ideas would be welcome, and i'd like to get the final ok from Dave.

    Mostly becuase I think the new factions lack the flavor that the vanilla ones have.

    Also another point is that why is it brothel and above, when it should be an increasing chance per level of brothel? ie brothel and pleasure palace have the same chance to develop drink/girls, etc. When this should not be the case. A simple tavern doesn't make one an alcoholic...especially one's whose character is defined by the opposite.

    Current Trait List Resource
    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=73056
    Last edited by FortressofRain; August 11, 2009 at 03:48 AM.

  4. #4

    Default Re: As To Character Traits

    For a start I am going to add

    Hates and Fears traits for Wales, Tuetonic Order, Lithuania, Antioch, Jerusalem, Norway, and Ireland.

    Next I will add in this traits to the triggers list for appropriate factions (example: hates wales/ireland to the random birth England tigger section instead of just france and scottland).

    I will create entirely new random birth trait lists for the above mentioned new factions.

    I will creat post battle triggers to test against when fighting against the new factions, same as the ones already present (to aquire hates and fears traits).

    I will add in a few high piety and chivalry conditions to prevent bad traits as difining triggers (only the highest level).

    Finally, I will split up the brothel building to have varying percentages per level rather than the catch all brothel >=1 for all associated neg traits... "sighs".

    Ironically, it seems CA forgot a hates and fears trigger for Scottland post battle. I will add that also.

    Last I will update the traits text descriptions for the new hates and fears traits for the new factions.

    This is the extent of my plans currently. I will update this as I develope more.
    Last edited by FortressofRain; August 11, 2009 at 04:35 AM.

  5. #5

    Default Re: As To Character Traits

    I'll update my progress and changes in the first post.

  6. #6

    Default Re: As To Character Traits

    In addition, turkey is missing a random birth section by faction. Egypt looks like this:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    ;------------------------------------------
    Trigger random_birth_egypt
    WhenToTest CharacterComesOfAge
    Condition FactionType egypt
    Affects Hatesjerusalem 1 Chance 10 <----- added this myself
    Affects GoodFarmer 3 Chance 25
    Affects GoodAdministrator 1 Chance 10


    Any ideas as to what to add?

    So far I added this for the turks:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    ;------------------------------------------
    Trigger random_birth_turks
    WhenToTest CharacterComesOfAge
    Condition FactionType turks
    Affects Hatesantioch 1 Chance 10
    Affects Hatesbyzantium 1 Chance 4


    Russia is also missing a section. We could leave it blank or add something for them as well.

    Also we need to brianstorm ideas for the new factions:
    Antioch
    Ireland
    Jerusalem
    Lithuania
    Norway
    Teutonic_Order
    Wales

    So far I simply copied over the HRE for TO, Scotland for Ireland, Denmark for Norway, and added in the specif hatesfaction for the appropriate faction per the starting war conditions in the descr.strat.

    This is what I have so far:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    ;------------------------------------------
    Trigger random_birth_antioch
    WhenToTest CharacterComesOfAge
    Condition FactionType antioch
    Affects Hatesturks 1 Chance 10
    Affects PublicFaith 1 Chance 25
    Affects HarshJustice 1 Chance 4
    Affects Stoic 1 Chance 10
    Affects Generous 1 Chance 5
    ;------------------------------------------
    Trigger random_birth_ireland
    WhenToTest CharacterComesOfAge
    Condition FactionType ireland
    Affects Hatesengland 1 Chance 4
    Affects Feck 1 Chance 10
    Affects Miserly 1 Chance 4
    Affects HaleAndHearty 1 Chance 4
    Affects Rabblerouser 1 Chance 4
    ;------------------------------------------
    Trigger random_birth_jerusalem
    WhenToTest CharacterComesOfAge
    Condition FactionType jerusalem
    Affects Hatesegypt 1 Chance 10
    Affects PublicFaith 1 Chance 25
    Affects HarshJustice 1 Chance 4
    Affects Stoic 1 Chance 10
    Affects Generous 1 Chance 5
    ;------------------------------------------
    Trigger random_birth_lithuania
    WhenToTest CharacterComesOfAge
    Condition FactionType lithuania
    Affects Hatesteutonic_order 1 Chance 10
    ;------------------------------------------
    Trigger random_birth_norway
    WhenToTest CharacterComesOfAge
    Condition FactionType norway
    Affects Hatesscotland 1 Chance 4
    Affects HaleAndHearty 1 Chance 4
    Affects Drink 1 Chance 4
    Affects MathematicsSkill 1 Chance 4
    Affects Berserker 1 Chance 3
    ;------------------------------------------
    Trigger random_birth_teutonic_order
    WhenToTest CharacterComesOfAge
    Condition FactionType teutonic_order
    Affects Hateslithuania 1 Chance 10
    Affects PublicFaith 1 Chance 25
    Affects HarshJustice 1 Chance 4
    Affects Stoic 1 Chance 10
    Affects Generous 1 Chance 5
    Affects HarshJustice 1 Chance 4
    ;------------------------------------------
    Trigger random_birth_wales
    WhenToTest CharacterComesOfAge
    Condition FactionType wales
    Affects Hatesengland 1 Chance 4
    Last edited by FortressofRain; August 11, 2009 at 06:36 AM.

  7. #7
    Frunk's Avatar Form Follows Function
    Artifex

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    Default Re: As To Character Traits

    I only skimmed the posts, but I love this initiative Fortress. Full support.

  8. #8

    Default Re: As To Character Traits

    Finally someone is addressing this problem. I usually do the same thing and use remove_trait if I think situation is completely ridiculous, like the overuse of the drunken one. Not all people who have a tavern in their city have a 50% chance of becoming a raging alcoholic.

  9. #9

    Default Re: As To Character Traits

    ok well as i am not totally sure what your trying to achieve it is hard to comment but i was thinking along the lines of triggers like

    luxurious_lifestyle_inns you could maybe drop the chance to 1 chance 4 and perhaps add to the conditions something along the lines of and not piety > 6 so that character of supposed high moral fiber do not get turned to leachers they would have to do things un honorable to trigger the change of them being able to turn to drunkards and womanisers

    Just a thought though havent looked to hard at traits and triggers except to make ones to bring about scripted changes on strat map like movement penalities and such

    Heroes Hordes & beyond The official submod of KGCM (click the sig)

  10. #10

    Default Re: As To Character Traits

    something along the lines of and not piety > 6 so that character of supposed high moral fiber
    That's pretty much exactly what I'm doing for some traits.

    Part of the problem is that there is so few ways of gaining the antitrait sobriety points, so you naturally lean toward higher drink traits without a means to effectively decrease them.
    Last edited by FortressofRain; August 12, 2009 at 06:18 AM.

  11. #11

    Default Re: As To Character Traits

    i actually dont mind that once you have the trait it is usually a downward spirial it kinda realistic in that many heavy drinkers hit rock bottom before getting up

    But it is annoying that a general you have done nothing but good things with eg released prisoners not sacked cities ya know being a holy good guy can suddenly turn to a drunkard cause he spends a turn or 2 resupplying men in a settlement or helping out to boost economy where as i general with high dread a evil murdering swine would well IMHO a much greater chance of losing his marbles or having low moral standards to women drinking etc so i really would just hit many of the triggers for these traits with a condition based on chiv or dreadbut again i havent looked to closely at it triggers etc yet they seem basic scripting though should be a condition along those lines???

    Heroes Hordes & beyond The official submod of KGCM (click the sig)

  12. #12

    Default Re: As To Character Traits

    Good work FortressofRain, I like your initiative. I would be happy to add this work to KGCM patch 4.2 providing all goes well. And I fully support your proposed changes so far.

    Dave

  13. #13

    Default Re: As To Character Traits

    I'm glad to hear it. My aim wasn't to make anything too drastic, just a few minor changes and add in some diversity to really develope the new factions. Still in work in progress. I'll upload something shortly, once I do a little bit a play testing. Here goes... *runs of to test*

  14. #14
    Rhythalion's Avatar Libertus
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    Default Re: As To Character Traits

    Great Work! I can't wait to try it all out! This will make it much better and less annoying when my worthy generals have a relax in a settlement, instead of turning to drink or whatever.
    Team Member of LOTR:TW, Beta Tester for some others



  15. #15

    Default Re: As To Character Traits

    As an update, so far things look good. All the traits I added are working. Still doing some play testing as far as a few triggers go for balance. I looked at a couple other traits project and I might look at toning down the sobriety and drink traits just a tad. Still seeing large jumps to drastic levels for those traits, though the risk is a lot lower from just sitting around in town with a tavern. Also still evaluating averages for piety and chiv as to tavern imunity levels, but so far I'm happy with what I have. I'll keep you updated as I play test and make progress.

  16. #16
    y2day's Avatar TWC STORE NOW OPEN!
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    Default Re: As To Character Traits

    Very interested in this nice work so far. Damn drunks!

    A good traits system is always a plus.
    Last edited by y2day; August 20, 2009 at 01:12 PM.




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  17. #17

    Default Re: As To Character Traits

    When can we expect a public release?

  18. #18
    Alibi's Avatar Foederatus
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    Default Re: As To Character Traits

    I always open control panel~
    use "remove_ancillary this ** or remove_trait this **" to avoid poor ancillary/traits. By hand every time, I really a bit tied.

    Support this good traits system,can't wait to try it.
    Last edited by Alibi; August 25, 2009 at 06:01 AM.

  19. #19

    Default Re: As To Character Traits

    This will be released with the 4.2 patch, which may be coming sooner than expected. Also, if I get possitive feedback, I might be inclined to continue work and development on improving the traits system in a number of ways.

    Taking ideas, ready go!

  20. #20

    Default Re: As To Character Traits

    Fortress are you still pursuing this idea yes/no ?? If not let me know as i have already started to work traits due to need to give heroes there own strat map model and thusly if your not continuing this which i think a improved trait system would be good then ill try and add a little more to current system.

    and If you are still pursuing it cool again let me know as ill send you my traits files so you can add my hero traits to your work (easy they have no triggers you either william wallace from start or your not LOL) so that our works will be compatable straight of the bat ( you do use exam diff yes??)

    Heroes Hordes & beyond The official submod of KGCM (click the sig)

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