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Thread: Poor pupils to have lower university entrance requirements

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  1. #1

    Default Poor pupils to have lower university entrance requirements

    After a recent flurry of articles discussing university access in the UK, I thought it would be worthwhile discussing the issue here.

    To pick and merge the more interesting points from a selection of these:

    Lord Mandelson, the UK's Business Secretary, is drawing up plans to overhaul university entry that could see applicants from poor families awarded a two-grade "head start" over better-off candidates. He sees such changes not as positive discrimination but as a policy at the heart of Labour's drive to improve social mobility in Britain. He does not have the power to force the universities to change their admissions policies, but official guidance would raise the pressure on them to widen access.

    In a similar vein, a recent MPs' report stated that Ministers should require institutions to take "contextual factors" in to account in their admissions. It also said that the need to ensure "fair access" was more important than the autonomy of publicly funded universities. MPs also recommended that the current "unfit" system for regulating standards in universities be replaced by Ofsted-style inspections which would target poor teaching and grade inflation in degrees.

    Campaigners have welcomed the idea, with Les Ebdon, of university think tank Million+, saying that it was important to widen the social mix in universities.

    However critics said the onus should be on schools to produce better candidates and added that the idea was unfair. Tim Hands, master of Magdalen college school, Oxford, and co-chairman of the main independent schools' universities committee, said education should be an "engine of social mobility", but warned: "If Mandelson is proposing to exert political pressure on university admissions and if he is going to be discriminating by type generically, everyone should be opposed."

    In a speech two weeks ago, Mandelson warned that he was going to "turn up the spotlight" on university admissions, particularly at Cambridge, Oxford and other highly ranked institutions.

    "Why are we still making only limited progress in widening access to young people from poorer backgrounds?" he asked.

    Kenton Lewis, head of widening participation at St George's medical school, London, said: "We are involved in discussions with the Department for Business. [National] guidance on how differential grades could be employed would be extremely positive."

    St George's programme has helped it to raise the proportion of its students coming from state schools from 48% to 71.2% since 1997.
    "St George's can do it. Why can't everyone else?" said one official involved in the discussions.

    The standard offer for medicine courses is three As at A-level, but candidates can receive offers of two Bs and a C if they outperform their school average by 60%. This favours bright pupils at low-performing schools.

    [A Telegraph columnist notes:] Discrimination against independent-school applicants (many of whose parents, like myself, face a struggle to pay fees) and against hard-working students from state schools who achieve the right grades is clearly unjust because all their hard work will be made to seem irrelevant. High-performing, middle-class students are at a disadvantage when applying to top universities, such as Edinburgh, because of repeated attempts at "social engineering", using candidates' postcodes as part of the application process. So even without Lord Mandelson's latest initiative, the number of students from poorer backgrounds is slowly increasing. The solution to a fair system of entry for higher education is to raise academic standards in all schools, including "bog-standard" comprehensives.


    To give my own opinion on the matter, let me point out that, as Medicine degrees were mentioned in one or several of the articles, doctors carry, in my opinion, a particularly large responsibility as their actions can directly lead to someone's imminent death or, alternatively, their survival. Thus, the profession should only admit the most able, instead of playing around with "social engineering". Whether or not a doctor or surgeon understood the entirety of their Biology and Chemistry courses is far more likely to affect their success rate than whether or not they grew up in a deprived area.

    I Am Herenow

  2. #2

    Default Re: Poor pupils to have lower university entrance requirements

    Medicine's hardly the only field that needs to be careful with this. Let's not even get started on engineering and all the little ways that affects the general population MORE than medicine.
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  3. #3
    Yorkshireman's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: Poor pupils to have lower university entrance requirements

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidin View Post
    Medicine's hardly the only field that needs to be careful with this. Let's not even get started on engineering and all the little ways that affects the general population MORE than medicine.
    I'm not debating wether this iniative is right or wrong, but its aimed at making access to universities easier not the courses of education themselves. So I presume if people are'nt good enough they'll still fail the course/degree.

    He does not have the power to force the universities to change their admissions policies, but official guidance would raise the pressure on them to widen access.
    It looks like they can't force them to do it anyway.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Poor pupils to have lower university entrance requirements

    Quote Originally Posted by Yorkshireman View Post
    I'm not debating wether this iniative is right or wrong, but its aimed at making access to universities easier not the courses of education themselves. So I presume if people are'nt good enough they'll still fail the course/degree.
    The problem with widening standards for any given university is that it brings about a fundamental shift in curriculum. An engineering degree at a place like MIT has a knack for turning out engineers that know more than ones from any typical state university. The reason being, is generally, you tend(TEND) to have a better background in the fundamentals when you've managed to get MIT to accept you, and they can go over the basic maths a lot faster than most other universities. Widen the standards, and suddenly, MIT needs 5 years to turn out their typical 4 year student because they have to spend more time on the fundamentals than they used to.
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    Yorkshireman's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: Poor pupils to have lower university entrance requirements

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidin View Post
    The problem with widening standards for any given university is that it brings about a fundamental shift in curriculum. An engineering degree at a place like MIT has a knack for turning out engineers that know more than ones from any typical state university. The reason being, is generally, you tend(TEND) to have a better background in the fundamentals when you've managed to get MIT to accept you, and they can go over the basic maths a lot faster than most other universities. Widen the standards, and suddenly, MIT needs 5 years to turn out their typical 4 year student because they have to spend more time on the fundamentals than they used to.
    Good points.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Poor pupils to have lower university entrance requirements

    Just today I was talking to a teachers aid in how easy it was to do well/pass in highschool and how they fail in college. I told her the next step will be dumbing down college (more).

    Nice coincidence.
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    Treize's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: Poor pupils to have lower university entrance requirements

    Very unwise, instead the governmet should pay (a bigger amouth of) the tuition for people with poor parents.
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    Yorkshireman's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: Poor pupils to have lower university entrance requirements

    Quote Originally Posted by IPA35 View Post
    Very unwise, instead the governmet should pay (a bigger amouth of) the tuition for people with poor parents.
    True.

    I'm not sure what the grants etc are available in the UK today, there's plenty of students on here that will know that, but I believe we should try and encourage as many capable people as possible, from a wider range of backgrounds, to go into higher education.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Poor pupils to have lower university entrance requirements

    wait what does tuition have to do with admission standards?
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    Treize's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: Poor pupils to have lower university entrance requirements

    Then more people can go to university and then you will have more social mobility without fail labour idea's that will not work out as planned anyway.
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  11. #11

    Default Re: Poor pupils to have lower university entrance requirements

    I smell an assumption that those let in are slackjawed inbreds with little motor or speech skills...
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  12. #12

    Default Re: Poor pupils to have lower university entrance requirements

    Quote Originally Posted by Da Skinna View Post
    I smell an assumption that those let in are slackjawed inbreds with little motor or speech skills...
    I'll have you know my A-Level in gangster rap was highly regarded thankyou very much.
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  13. #13

    Default Re: Poor pupils to have lower university entrance requirements

    Quote Originally Posted by Da Skinna View Post
    I smell an assumption that those let in are slackjawed inbreds with little motor or speech skills...
    I don't think people are necessarily being that extreme, but there is simply a (rather valid, in my opinion) concern being raised that those who fail to acquire the usual standard when it comes to exams are going to be worse at whichever course than those who make the grade.

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  14. #14

    Default Re: Poor pupils to have lower university entrance requirements

    Stupid idea, don't make university admission easier, work to make it HARDER in fact, make degrees mean something again. At the same time however, increase the incentives for businesses to provide apprentiships, for people (like myself) whos apptitudes lie outside academia. ( I have a major problem with exam assesed courses, I adsorb information that interests me, I read vast amounts of books, but if something bores me, I have a real problem remembering it)

    I am however a competent engineer and would take your hand off if more training was offered me, I was supposed to be doing more at my last engineering job, but they went bankrupt so I have been 'job surfing' with temporary contracts doing whatever comes up, ever since.


    EDIT: having thought further, junk the joke degrees (leisure and tourism and sports studies spring to mind) Replace them with academies specialised in the subjects they offered, (for instance regional and nationa sports academies) this having the benefit of allowing universities to go back to what they are historically actually for, teaching of pure subjects, and research based on those subjects, and of allowing facilities that are fit for purpose, that especially in the case of the sports based subjects will be of great benefit to the local communites to be constucted.
    Last edited by justicar5; August 10, 2009 at 01:24 PM.

  15. #15
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    Default Re: Poor pupils to have lower university entrance requirements

    Ridiculous. Less competent people should be admitted becuase they are poor?

    Admitting poor and incompetent students won't solve anything. How are the going to get the money required to survive while attending the university? The only people this is going to help is rich kids in poor areas.

    A much more reasonable apporach would be to give scholarships to students who manage to outperform their school averages by 60%. This way you provide an incentive for bright students and also give them the monetary platform necessary to complete university studies.

  16. #16
    LoZz's Avatar who are you?
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    Default Re: Poor pupils to have lower university entrance requirements

    A "C" grade achieved in one of the uk's worst inner-city schools is worth more then an "A" grade achieved in one of our many private schools like eton. So on paper its a good idea. In pratice however I have my doubts. The standard of work exspected of them at university level is going to be same regardless of if they are poor or rich and as such pupils let in on "lesser" grades may find it harder to actually leave university with a degree.

    That said we have too many people going to university, I see no reason to increase this problem further

  17. #17
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    Default Re: Poor pupils to have lower university entrance requirements

    With regards to medical degrees the drop out rate is staggeringly high (and that is with students with 3 A's at A-level). Since students in the UK are still subsidized by the government there is an enormous amount of tax that is being wasted and even more tax will be wasted if you lower the admissions standards. If the government really wants to help encourage those from poorer backgrounds to go to university then they should provide more generous grants.

    Yorkshireman - you can get the minimum grant if your total household income is less than £50k. It is quite generous if your total household income is less than £25k higher then that then it can become a struggle to live off that grant. Alternatively you can get a loan from the government. I have calculated that by 2012 I will owe the government over £20k which is another big turnoff for those from poorer backgrounds.
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  18. #18

    Default Re: Poor pupils to have lower university entrance requirements

    The should improve the pre-university education. Not lower the university entrance requirements.

  19. #19
    LoZz's Avatar who are you?
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    Default Re: Poor pupils to have lower university entrance requirements

    Quote Originally Posted by Homeros View Post
    The should improve the pre-university education. Not lower the university entrance requirements.
    couldnt agree with you more

    Quote Originally Posted by Yorkshireman View Post
    20k ! Thats staggering!

    Its massive burden to put on someone starting out in work at a young age.

    I personally think that certain degrees, eg medecine/science/engineering/teaching should be heavily subsidised for the right, qualified candidates. I say that as a taxpayer that left school at 16 years old. I'm quite happy to invest in people who are of real benefit to the nation as a whole.

    (But not aromatherapy or suchlike!)
    ditto. I also think at the same time we shouldn't be paying for 50,000 Sociology degrees.

  20. #20

    Default Re: Poor pupils to have lower university entrance requirements

    This is an absolute disgrace. Thank God I'm done with UK universities.
    'I'm not interested in preserving the status quo; I want to overthrow it.'

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