the demonization of those opposed to Dem's health care plan

[danzig]

For those who (rightfully) attacked republican attempts to make the vast majority of antiwar people as terrorist sympathizers should take note what is being done today by democrats on those opposed to the type of health care reform being planned. Senator Boxer today attacked people who show up at these town halls "too well dressed" are out to harm the president and this country. Not to be outdone Pelosi follows up by claiming these "people" are showing up carrying swastikas and "things like that". So if you disagree with Bush you were a terrorist love and now the "change" we have gotten is if you disagree with Obama you are a nazi. Priceless. Pelosi failed to provide any evidence of this or even if it did happen how it manages to reflect everyone. Considering what is being talked about in congress for health care reform stands at a whopping 39% approval rating by the public that sure makes alot of well dressed nazis out there opposed to the President.

This is the change we have gotten...flip side to same coin, same crap, same nonsense.

[nopasties]

It would be nice to see Pelosi kicked out of Dem leadership. I totally agree with your statement, the healthcare 'reform' seems awful so far. I'll be deeply upset if the Dem's pass this chance for real reform. It may take another decade to deal with this and the cost of getting this wrong or not fixing healthcare will cost us over a $trillion IMO. Obama so far is dissapointing. I have not written him off yet but I am souring to him.

[Legio XII]

It would be nice to see Pelosi kicked out of Dem leadership. I totally agree with your statement, the healthcare 'reform' seems awful so far. I'll be deeply upset if the Dem's pass this chance for real reform. It may take another decade to deal with this and the cost of getting this wrong or not fixing healthcare will cost us over a $trillion IMO. Obama so far is dissapointing. I have not written him off yet but I am souring to him.

Very much agreed...the man is slowly proving all those who called him a socialist right. And doubly agreed on the banning of Pelosi from the Democratic leadership...or how about politics in general? That would be nice...level the Congressional banhammer on her!

[danzig]

Yeah its the one thing I dont get, this is probably a once in a lifetime chance for meaingful reform of health care that actually works and for some reason its being completely blown by trying to railroad an idiotic plan that even Obama's budget office says doesnt make sense or add up. Im all for reform we need it but come on do it right, you dont get many chances like this.

[Cougar109]

I will say this, some demonstrators do deserve to be demonized. I have seen people with posters on Obama and Nazi symbols, the handle of a knife sticking out of Obama's head, Obama pictures sort of photo shopped and put on a poster shaking hands with Hitler, Stalin, or Mussolini and the same can be said for people who did the same thing when protesting Bush. If Pelosi, Boxer, or anyone else making comments such as those are isolating those individuals then I have no problem with it because as I said they deserve to be demonized, they are fools who obviously have no idea what they are talking about. If they are generalizing that all protesters are Nazi's, dangerous, ect. as several Republicans did do when commenting on the anti-war protesters and calling them Anti-American, terrorist sympathizers, Freedom haters, and traitors then we do have a problem. Honestly I haven't paid enough attention to the comments of Pelosi, she's a fool as doesn't really deserve my attention so I'm not sure how specific her comments have been.

To your second post I agree completely, health care does need to be reformed and this is one of the most opportunistic times to do so but for whatever reason the Democrats feel the need to just get something done for the sake of getting something done and not really thinking it out all the way and putting long term consequences out of thought and mind.

[danzig]

The problem is however they arent drawing any distinction anymore then republicans did about antiwar people where they painted every antiwar protester as a card carrying member of idiotic code pink. This is clearly Boxer & and Pelosi's attempt to label people who oppose Obama's plan regardless of WHY they do as somehow being villians trying to stop them. I mean come on, people dressed too nicely for a townhall have an agenda? I hate this kinda of nonsense whether it was by Republicans with antiwar people or Democrats now doing this because it attempts to cloud the issue and create noise to block the vast majority who object to these things based on very REAL reasons.

[Каие]

This is nothing new Danzig. Nothing new. Right wing and Left wing politics are exactly the same, but with different masks. They are the same by methodology, rhetoric and tactics. It's just how it is.

[Ter]

This is nothing new Danzig. Nothing new. Right wing and Slightly Less Right wing politics are exactly the same, but with different masks. They are the same by methodology, rhetoric and tactics. It's just how it is.

Fixed.

[Celsius]

Yes. We need to spend trillions of dollars on healthcare when we are already 20+ trillion dollars in debt. Makes alot of sense. Let people take care of themselves and stop leeching off of the government.

[Gromovnik]

Yes. We need to spend trillions of dollars on healthcare when we are already 20+ trillion dollars in debt. Makes alot of sense. Let people take care of themselves and stop leeching off of the government.

Like you do?

[Stavroforos]

Yes. We need to spend trillions of dollars on healthcare when we are already 20+ trillion dollars in debt. Makes alot of sense. Let people take care of themselves and stop leeching off of the government.

Hell, let's just kill all the poor. I mean, they don't contribute much, they're not good to look at, they're just ripe for extermination.

[Каие]

As far as I know this plan of Obama's will not cost a trillion, but 400 billion, and secondly, the whole point of Medicare is not everyone can afford healthcare, especially as the costs spiral, and not go down as the free market is supposed to suggest.

[B5C]

As far as I know this plan of Obama's will not cost a trillion, but 400 billion, and secondly, the whole point of Medicare is not everyone can afford healthcare, especially as the costs spiral, and not go down as the free market is supposed to suggest.

Ahh yes, during the 60s-70s Medical was suppose to cost us 300 billion as well.

[HorseArcher]

I would think the priorities changed in the past year or so, or at least the way I see things, is the biggest problem is unemployment, foreclosures, budget crisis.

Maybe it's just me, but whatever health care reform to be "fixed" would fall behind in priorities when people are loosing their jobs and their homes and I'm getting the 3rd alignment on my car due to roads, due to the state and the towns are in the minus and can't even spend money to fix the roads and bridges.

Maybe it's just me though...

[Admiral Piett]

I would think the priorities changed in the past year or so, or at least the way I see things, is the biggest problem is unemployment, foreclosures, budget crisis.

Maybe it's just me, but whatever health care reform to be "fixed" would fall behind in priorities when people are loosing their jobs and their homes and I'm getting the 3rd alignment on my car due to roads, due to the state and the towns are in the minus and can't even spend money to fix the roads and bridges.

Maybe it's just me though...

I don't know about that. Britain adopted its National Health Service in 1948 still in recovery from WWII.

When times are the roughest is the perfect time to impliment it. Especially with all the people struggling. It's one less major bill to worry about, the one that judges if your going to survive an illness or get rehabilitation from a car wreck.

[Каие]

Ahh yes, during the 60s-70s Medical was suppose to cost us 300 billion as well.

You heard of inflation? 300 billion in the 60's is worth a lot more in monetary terms today.

[Oldgamer]

As far as I know this plan of Obama's will not cost a trillion, but 400 billion, and secondly, the whole point of Medicare is not everyone can afford healthcare, especially as the costs spiral, and not go down as the free market is supposed to suggest.

Is that 400 billion figure in pounds or dollars?

The Democrats themselves set the cost at $1.6 trillion. That will likely be a conservative estimate, as almost all government estimates are.

By the way, I've already emailed the nark hotline at the White House and denounced myself as an opponent of the President's health care plan. I encourage other conservatives to denounce themselves:

flag@whitehouse.gov

[Sigma]

I like how they accuse the protesters of being paid to protest by large companies etc., so their solution is to do exactly the same thing they're accusing the other side of doing and hoping their side will turn out in larger numbers.

[Disaray]

I think that 1.6 trillion figure is from the CBO and I can say the costs will be lower than that. The thing the CBO can't do is calculate the cost reduction from savings, as those are kind of like predicting the future and the CBO isn't a big fan of that.

That, "just get more education and a better job" argument is a joke, right? How the hell is a single mom taking cair of two kids, holding down two jobs just to survive going to find the time, let alone the money, to get an education? And just working hard isn't enuf to get ahead in the world. I worked my ass off in a marketing job for a painting company, I'm talking 12 hour days every day I could spare from school, and didn't get ahead. Simularly I know people that have worked hard all their lives and haven't got ahead. It is a nice though, a fantasy realy, that if you work hard you will reep the rewards of life but in the real world, where most of us live, you can work as harder than any one on the face of the Earth and still get your head kicked in by life.

[Oldgamer]

I think that 1.6 trillion figure is from the CBO and I can say the costs will be lower than that. The thing the CBO can't do is calculate the cost reduction from savings, as those are kind of like predicting the future and the CBO isn't a big fan of that.

But the history of nationalized health care systems throughout demonstrate that they don't reduce costs, they increase them. Neither the CBO or the Obama Administration can calculate how much costs will go up. Accordingly, I always consider government estimates to be conservative.

That, "just get more education and a better job" argument is a joke, right? How the hell is a single mom taking cair of two kids, holding down two jobs just to survive going to find the time, let alone the money, to get an education? And just working hard isn't enuf to get ahead in the world. I worked my ass off in a marketing job for a painting company, I'm talking 12 hour days every day I could spare from school, and didn't get ahead. Simularly I know people that have worked hard all their lives and haven't got ahead. It is a nice though, a fantasy realy, that if you work hard you will reep the rewards of life but in the real world, where most of us live, you can work as harder than any one on the face of the Earth and still get your head kicked in by life.

I don't think I said that.

However, as a former Professor of Philosophy, I've seen countless single mothers work their way through college, and towards a better future. Unfortunately, not everyone can benefit from a college education, or even succeed at getting a degree. Dependent upon the person's level of income, there are programs already available, like Medicaid and SChipp, to help a poor, single mother take care of her children.

Also, I have a daughter who couldn't get through university, even though she has an amazing amount of drive and energy. So, she took a 6-month course in welding at a Community College, and now she's an apprentice with the Pipefitter's Union, making $29 per hour. Not bad.

There's a way out of poverty, short of making everyone else pay for your life. Sometimes, it takes some ingenuity and luck, but it's mostly hard work.

When my Pell Grant (back then, called the Basic Educational Opportunity Grant) was taken from me, prior to my senior year, because of a Carter Administration affirmative action program, I merely worked harder to get through that year of school. A year later, I was a Grad Assistant.