Comparing the advanced state of civilizations

[Aldgarkalaughskel]

It can be often heard and read in popular sources, even in scholarly studies that one or another civilization was more advanced in terms of culture as a whole (including morals, arts, politics, civil life etc.) than other civilizations in certain centuries. Could these claims be ever verified by professional historians or not? What would be the standards with which you could measure how advanced a civilization is? For example, some historians assert that Islamic civilization maintained a culture superior to the Christian civilization in Western Europe, even up to the 15th century.

[Tankbuster]

That's a great question.

I think that saying that one culture is 'superior' over another will always get you into value judgements. Technically, in order to do that you would have to have an objective list of moral standards that you can compare each country to.

I suppose you could quite easily check how tolerant a society is, what amount of religious, sexual and racial freedom there is, how much equality, how much attention to art, how much literacy, etcetera...
Most people would then readily see a culture like that superior to another one.

But then again, it will always be subjective, since we don't know in what direction our civilization will evolve.

[konny]

Going for material things it is quite obvious by comparing the one living in huts made of mud and the other inhabiting cities with all buildings made of stone. Another thing would be craftsmanship: how much and how advanced was the output?

Another - more or less measurable - thing would be something like "standard of living"; always compared to other civilizations of that time and not to the modern world, of course. This would be first of all good access to food, health care, clothing, and items of "luxury".

Things are getting difficulty when checking immaterial achievements, such as arts, political systems, education and the like. You can, for example, count the number of books, letters and other written works that were "produced" by a society for others than administrative/economical reasons. But that would require to compare two equally literate societies with each other. Only because a civilization did not leave many poetic literature does not mean that they did not have any poets or that these were inferior to poets of a more literate civilization.

Political systems are absolutly impossible to compare because in most occasions you'll find that people had the system what fitted their way of living best, what makes it uncomparable to other societies - just imagine the Frankish Empire as a parlamentarian democracy, for example.

[My Favorite Martian]

I do basically share Tank's opinion. I would further think that civilization as well as culture or similar classifying terms that create large entities are not something you can really observe but at best postulate. It is insofare clear that someone who compares large entities will compare ideas/values. It would be mere a game within a set theory having value judgements as objects than a critical investigation of observable instances.

[bushbush]

I do basically share Tank's opinion. I would further think that civilization as well as culture or similar classifying terms that create large entities are not something you can really observe but at best postulate. It is insofare clear that someone who compares large entities will compare ideas/values. It would be mere a game within a set theory having value judgements as objects than a critical investigation of observable instances.

to be honest, i think this whole comparison thing that's so popular today has more to do with nationalistic dick waving or racism justification then true attempt to understand history...

[bushbush]

i think it's always tough to compare artistic and cultural achievements; i mean how u gonna compare let's say an arabic poem to an english one or to a chinese one...it's tough. Even poems of same languages are hard to compare.

it's however possible to compare scientific achievements of a certain period and standard of living, though you have to do a lot of research and make a lot of assumption based on very limited evidence. People in the past dno't collect a lot of data that 's crucial for us to make comparisons....we need to remember this.

[Aldgarkalaughskel]

That's a great question.

I think that saying that one culture is 'superior' over another will always get you into value judgements. Technically, in order to do that you would have to have an objective list of moral standards that you can compare each country to.

I suppose you could quite easily check how tolerant a society is, what amount of religious, sexual and racial freedom there is, how much equality, how much attention to art, how much literacy, etcetera...
Most people would then readily see a culture like that superior to another one.

But then again, it will always be subjective, since we don't know in what direction our civilization will evolve.

I'd argue with your post for the sake of debate, despite I mostly agree with you. You claim that comparison can only be based on value judgments. A value judgment is a judgment of the rightness or wrongness of something, or of the usefulness of something. Don't we all (incl. historians) value something in history? What I mean is, when you appreciate a certain aspect of a Greek City State or the Roman Empire, say that they could maintain political freedom or they invented the system law as we know it, you are making a value judgment. Unless you also say that there is no objective theory asserting that society works better in democracy and under the rule of law. These are just examples. There must be values assigned to each society or culture, otherwise society or culture wouldn't make sense, not even in its own eyes. I argue that value judgments are legitimate within science, if those judgments refer to universal values of humankind. Science can't be nihilist. On the other hand, one should be careful when measuring the advance state of civilizations, it shouldn't apply contemporary values to previous ages. F.e. you say, let's check how tolerant a society is. I claim this is not relevant anyhow, say a shogun culture was brilliant, nonetheless extremely intolerant to other cultures. This pops the question btw, if there are universal values or not, and what's the method to grab these values.

[bushbush]

This pops the question btw, if there are universal values or not, and what's the method to grab these values.

you are making my brain explode.

[Aldgarkalaughskel]

i think it's always tough to compare artistic and cultural achievements; i mean how u gonna compare let's say an arabic poem to an english one or to a chinese one...it's tough. Even poems of same languages are hard to compare.

It's true, however poems can be evidences of a higher morality or culture, lifestyle. Here is an interesting example of arabic literature that attestes the exquisiteness of Arabic culture in the late medieval ages. The book is called The Perfumed Garden,and it was written by by Muhammad ibn Muhammad al-Nafzawi in the 15th century. In which other culture at that age would the female sexual organ be praised in so many names?

Spoiler for warning, don't read this, if you're under 16, 18, or under 21 in some countries: 

Sundry Names Given to the Sexual Organs of Women

El feurdj, the slit
Abou belâoum, the glutton
El keuss, the vulva
El mokâour, the bottomless
El kelmoune, the voluptuous
Abou cheufrine, the two-lipped
El ass, the primitive
Abou âungra, the humpbacked
El zerzour, the starling
El rorbal, the sieve
El cheukk, the chin
El hazzaz, the restless
Abou tertour, the one with a cres.
El lezzaz, the unionist
Abou khochime, the one with a little nose
El moudd, the accommodating
El moudïne, the assistant
El gueunfond, the hedgehog
El meusboul, the long one
El sakouti, the silent one
El molki, the duellist
El deukkak, the crusher
El harrab, the fugitive
El tseguil, the importunate
El sabeur, the resigned
El taleb, the yearning one
El mouseuffah, the barred one
El hacene, the beautiful
El mezour, the deep one
El neuffakh, the one that swells
El âddad, the biter
Abou djebaha, the one with a projection
El menssass, the sucker
El zeunbur, the wasp
El ouasâ, the vast one
El harr, the hot one
El aride, the large one
El ladid, the delicious one

As regards the vulva called el feurdj, the slit, it has this name because it opens and shuts again when hotly yearning for coitus, like the one of a mare in heat at the approach of the stallion. This word, however, is applied indiscriminately to the natural parts of men and women, for God the Supreme has used this expression in the Koran, chap. xxxiii. v. 35, `El hafidine feuroudjahoum ou el hafidate.' The proper meaning of feurdj is slit, opening, passage; people say, `I have found a feurdj in the mountains,' viz., a passage; there is then a soukoune upon the ra and a fatcha upon the djïne, and in this sense it means also the natural parts of woman. But if the ra is marked with a fatcha it signifies deliverance from misfortunes.
`The person who dreams of having seen the vulva, feurdj, of a woman will know that `if he isintrouble God will freehimof it; if he is in a perplexity he will soon get out of it; and lastly if he is in poverty he will soon become wealthy, because feurdj, by transposing the vowels, will mean the deliverance from evil. By analogy, if he wants a thing he will get it: if he has debts, they will be paid.'
It is considered more lucky to dream of the vulva as open. But if the one seen belongs to a young virgin it indicates that the door of consolation will remain closed, and the thing which is desired is not obtainable. It is a proved fact that the man who sees in his dream the vulva of a virgin that has never been touched will certainly be involved in difficulties, and will not be lucky in his affairs. But if the vulva is open so that he can look well into it, or even if it is hidden but he is free to enter it, he will bring the most difficult tasks to a successful end after having first failed in them, and this after a short delay, by the help of a person whom he never thought of.
He who has seen in his dream a man busy upon a young girl, and when the same is getting off her has managed to see at that moment her vulva, will bring his business to a happy end, after having first failed to do so, by the help of the man he has seen. If it is himself who did the girl's business, and he has seen her vulva, he will succeed by his own exertions to realize the most difficult problems, and be successful in every respect. Generally speaking, to see the vulva in dreams is a good sign; so it is of good augury to dream of coition, and he who sees himself in the act, and finishing with the ejaculation, will meet success in all his affairs. But it is not the same with the man who merely begins coition and does not finish it. He, on the contrary, will be unlucky in every enterprise.
It is supposed that the man who dreams of being busy with a woman will afterwards obtain from her what he wants.
The man who dreams of cohabiting with women with whom to have sexual intercourse is forbidden by religion, as for instance his mother, sister, etc. (maharine), must consider this as a presage that he will go to sacred places (moharreme); and, perhaps, even journey to the holy house of God, and look there upon the grave of the Prophet.
As regards the virile member, it has been previously mentioned that to dream of accident occurring to that organ means the loss of all remembrance and the extinction of the race.
The sight of a pair of pantaloons (seronal) prognosticates the appointment to a post (oulaïa), by reason of the analogy of the letters composing the word seronal with those arming by transposition the two

[My Favorite Martian]

Explaining words can as an art and science look back on long traditions in the Orients. Think only about all the wisdom literature you can find in the Bible. It is however not an indication for a specific state of civilization but of social conditions that allow a minority to write and read these texts as most people of the time would probably not have even known of the existence of literatures other than oral ones. It shows by the way that not all written literature of the time has something to do with mystic or religion. - And taste is of course something not really being disputable but texts dealing with sexuality are an observable reality whether they appeal us or not. These kinds of things are interesting for social historians and people with skills in classical Arabic studies, something else than al-Qur'an.

[Aldgarkalaughskel]

Sometimes I think in German, that's why. I meant "ergreifen" which translates "grab", but it's not the best translation. I meant: how can you determine these universal values by scientific method?

[My Favorite Martian]

Science has yet to find a method to determine universal values. If you want, you can call this the infinite state of value knowledge. It is good as it is with all infinite things that they have not yet arrived.

[conon394]

Could these claims be ever verified by professional historians or not? What would be the standards with which you could measure how advanced a civilization is? For example, some historians assert that Islamic civilization maintained a culture superior to the Christian civilization in Western Europe, even up to the 15th century.

I think historians can judgments but you should be honest in stating that you are doing so and be open about your rational.

However advancement is rather vague your could do it but it always likely to be subjective since you are rarely going to find consensus on what things are valuable - do you value religious devotion and de-value human sacrifice than what to make of the Aztecs.

How do you balance an apparent legal restriction in culture A balanced against perhaps lots of evidence that it is somewhat or generally ignored in the same society.

Of course with things like art it because more or less a matter of taste, but as bushbush noted I think you can probably find a few things which most people would find as fairly objective measures when you can quantify them: standard of living at it most basic say the caloric equivalent for a days labor, level of corruption/rule of law/relative equality before the law, safety from external threat, edit: I think you might also add distribution of wealth as somewhat valuable especially in conjunction with standard of living.

[My Favorite Martian]

It is like with the saying about the absence of the cat. If the cat* is out of the house**, then the mice*** will dance****.

* universal values
** a method to claim them
*** science
**** achieve new knowledge or deepen the understanding of already existing knowledge