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  1. #1
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    Default Roman Advancements

    This thread is in response to claims sometimes made to the effect of supposed intellectual stagnation of the Roman Empire, evidenced by quotes like this one:

    Quote Originally Posted by Louis XI View Post
    Most of the Science of the Principate was stagnated - We have rehearsals, commentaries and the like, but the best attempt at innovating Mathematics, for example, only came at the closing of this period by Diophantus. Philosophy was either a rehearsal of Zeno or an affirmation of Aristotelian and generally Hellenic principles and natural Science. Sculpture idem, architecture idem... Indeed it was a rather shallow period as far as I can tell. As for metallurgy, it remained about the same Iron Age stuff the Romans were used to since their earlier history
    In this thread I will endeavor to refute them.


    Architecture:

    This is of course the easiest place to start with. Underneath the similarity amongst the surviving ancient Classical buildings, Roman buildings look somehow different from the Greek, as any student of Classical history will know. There are several reasons for this difference, reasons which are all fundamental:

    • arches
    • cement
    • bricks

    Arches, vaguely familiar to the outskirts of the Greek world, were never seized upon on a widespread, cultural, scale. If the reader reflects on what it is that to him makes the Roman buildings look different, he will realize that it is the love of the arched, curved interior, which makes Roman buildings soar into the sky to a degree that would have been unthinkable to the Greek. We must remember the crucial fact: Greek architecture until the end remained the simple post-and-lintel system, where you raise a few central vertical blocks, and upon them place a few central horizontal blocks. Although much more refined than the Stonehenge, we must realize that it is not fundamentally different from it. A revolution occurs in the Roman period when the post-and-lintel system is thrown out, and replaced by pier-and-arch system, and it is this that explains the distinctive difference of Roman buildings, as well a their much greater height. The engineer G. Baldwin Brown reflecting on one of the minor structures on the outside of the Roman world, said of Pont Du Gard:
    Quote Originally Posted by http://www.jstor.org/stable/297086
    The universally acknowledged beauty of the Pont Du Gard depends largely on the effect of lightness due to the wide span of the great arches which seem to stride across the intervening spaces, and, as the photograph hints, almost strive to convey an impression of movement.

    Cement is another Roman aspect which bears crucially on ancient architecture. This compound, which holds pieces of stone together, was not known to the Greek world, and was also forgotten during the subsequent Middle Ages. In tactile strength said to have not been equalled until the 18th century, the central importance of cement for architecture was emphasized by Lynne Lancaster in her groundbreaking 2005 book, Concrete vaulted construction in Imperial Rome.

    Cement was invented around Rome during the 3rd century BC, during the period when we still think of Romans as largely subservient to exported Greek influence. For all that it may have been, yet we already begin to juts of creativity and independence, and before the Republican period is over Romans are building buildings that the Greek world has never seen. During the 2nd Century BC the arch and cement principles were applied at the startlingly creative Temple of Fortuna Primigenia. Already this structure is nothing like anything seen in the Greek world, yet some errors were made, some vaults still fell through, and several centuries of trial and experimentation had to pass before the Romans acquired the full proficiency and technical mastery in the new medium, present in such 1st century AD masterpieces as the Pantheon (unimaginable in the Greek world). There is one more aspect to this: the Roman cement is able to set under water. How the Romans invented this compound is unknown, but present it is, with the result that they constructed piers, roads, and even whole buildings on water, explaining the great size of Roman harbors, massive man-made piers jutting out into the ocean.


    The brick should not be forgotten in the category of architectural revolutions. Bricks allow the creation of modular construction, of standardization of materials which allows the creation of buildings at a speed and efficiency unthinkable prior to its invention. We should not think of bricks as a modern invention and approach to architecture, as even the most routine Roman buildings in Pompeii exemplify its construction.

    In no uncertain terms, Romans have revolutionized architecture in the West. Lancaster had the following thing to say as the very first thing of her first chapter:

    Concrete vaulted structures represent one of the Romans' most original and enduring contributions to the artistic and architectural patrimony of the Mediterranean world.


    Law:

    We often hear of Roman attainments in law, but don't often know what that means, or how commensurable it is with fields we do know about. Legal theorists of the 2nd and 3rd centuries AD attained the peak of legal brilliance, at least according to Hooke, Blackstone, and other such jurists who like titans formulated modern jurisprudence, yet considered themselves but students to the Romans. The Roman jurists applied philosophy to law, and created an encapsulation of human freedoms, and legal procedure, that cast a huge and indelible shadow on all of the succeeding European history.

    It may be surprising to some, but rights of man were the most protected under the Roman Law until the advent of the 19th and 20th centuries. Under the Edict from Antoninus Pius, no man in the empire, be he the emperor himself, could kill or hurt a slave. It will surely come as a shock that something as fundamental as habeas corpus, commonly thought to derive from British Common Law, comes from old Roman Law itself. The jurist S.P. Scott who wrote the definitive commentary on the Civil Law, writes:
    Quote Originally Posted by S.P. Scott
    [Justinian, Institutes, IV.15: "Concerning interdicts"] Note: the principal interest attaching to this section is the fact that interdicts known as De libero homine exhibendo, and De liberis exhibendis item ducendis, are the undoubted source from which our writ of Habeas Corpus is derived. No nation has ever guarded the liberties of its citizens with such constant and diligent care. The benefit of every doubt, the effect of every presumption, was conceded in favor of freedom. Where a person who asserted that he was free was held in slavery, anyone could apply for an order to produce him in court for the purposes of establishing the fact. So stringent was the rule, that the party involved – even if he preferred to remain in bondage – could not reject the advantage conferred by the Edict, but was liberated in spite of himself.
    There are other issues concerning liberty:
    Quote Originally Posted by S.P. Scott
    [Justinian, Digest, II.4.18: "...house of every individual should be secure refuge and shelter"] This is the undoubted origin of the familiar maxim, "A man's house is his castle", generally attributed to Coke.
    Even something as campy and simplistic as "my home is my castle" was made by Romans into a principle, that at the boundary of your home the powers of the outside society, even emperors, became severely curtailed.

    And there are many more such statements, many that would, in time, provide the legal basis for the abolishment of slavery from human society:
    Quote Originally Posted by Digest, L.17.32
    So far as the Civil Law is concerned, slaves are not considered persons, but this is not the case according to natural law, because natural law regards all men as equal.

    Yet the centerpiece of Roman law, what most endeared it to all subsequent jurists, was the conceptual clarity of its statements, the terseness and aversion to bloatness amongst its pronouncements, that so strongly characterizes modern legislation (1000-page bills and enactments being quite common). It is precisely this ability that inspired America's Founding Fathers to condense the US Constitution, the whole law of the land, to two type-written pages. In the minds of men like Gaius and Ulpian, even the most difficult concepts were defined during the years 100-200 AD simply and succinctly:

    -"Justice is the constant and perpetual desire of giving everyone his due." (Institutes, I.1.10)
    -"Law is the art of knowing what is good and just." (Digest, I.1)
    -"Custom is the tacit consent of the people confirmed by long-established practice." (Rules of Ulpian, 1)
    -"Liberty is the natural power of doing what we wish, unless prevented by physical force or law." (Digest, I.5.4)
    -"Slavery is an institution of the law of Nations wherein one man is subjected to the control of another, contrary to nature." (Digest, I.5.4)

    S.P. Scott writes:
    [Gaius, Institutes, I.1.7: "...decisions of those who are authorized to define law."] Note: from the fragments it contains we can form some idea of the vast knowledge and attainments possessed by these old Roman lawyers, whose works have perished, and whose names would hardly be known, were it not for the compilation of Justinian. As legal dicta they are, as a rule, models of perspicacity and conciseness. Their language is terse, comprehensive, elegant. The ingenuity with which their conclusions are formed is admirable. The dominating sentiments which pervade them are a love of truth and a reverence for justice, qualities, it is scarcely necessary to add, which do not always characterize modern legislation.

    Thus when we look at the Wiki legal map of the world, we see that half of the world lives under the system the Romans had created, and even the other half lives under the system that derived from it. For yes, even the British Common Law was but a copy of the Roman, made by the early British jurists:
    Quote Originally Posted by S.P.Scott, Introduction
    It was not until the fourteenth century, that the Civil Law, which for the period of nearly three hundred years had been largely instrumental in the formation and development of English jurisprudence, began no longer to arouse the interest of jurists who had hitherto devoted themselves to its study. The immediate cause of this was not only the hatred for the exercise of arbitrary power by secular kings, but the well-founded apprehension of Papal supremacy then associated with Civil Law, acting under the direction of the See of Rome.

    It was stated by Selden that the reign of Edward I should be accepted as marking the epoch from which the constructive legislation of England – which country had hitherto been almost exclusively dependent upon other nations for its laws – dated its origin, and the formulation of a juridical system peculiarly its own began. The labors of Glanvil and Bracton, with their wholesale appropriation of the maxims and practice of the great Roman jurists, had already been accomplished. These men may be properly called the Fathers of English jurisprudence. Of Bracton it was said: "There is scarcely a principle of law incorporated in the treatise of Bracton which may not be traced to the Roman law." It has been estimated that at least one third of his work is directly copied from it. Not only Bracton, but other ancient legal writers, among whom is Plowden, refer to many of the axioms and rules, which, constituting part of its common law, they quote as having originated in England, when in fact, they have been copied from the Digest, a misrepresentation hardly attributable to ignorance.


    Medicine:

    Science is yet another of those topics which can be addressed very easily. To begin with medicine, quite simply Galen was the greatest doctor and biologist of antiquity. I won't go into his many books and accomplishments, which can be found quite easily on Wiki and elsewhere. I'll focus on one aspect of his genius, neurology. Galen was one of the first to demonstrate that thinking happened in the brain, all of which is detailed in a highly technical and specialized study, Galen On The Brain, which conclusively proves that he was the greatest ancient neurologist in addition to his many other talents.

    Yet lest it be mistakenly said, as it sometimes is, that Galen was a "Greek", working in a fundamentally Roman (i.e. alien) world, Galen's greatest collaborator and teacher was one he calls Marinus. He writes in Commentary upon 'Nature of Man' VI.k.xv that after Erasistratus no substantial anatomy was done until Marinus and Numisianus (who were his teachers, both Romans). This Marinus seems to have made a number of medical discoveries during the 1st century AD, and to indicate the kind of specialized knowledge possessed in the period, Galen records in Works 3 an excerpt from book 6 of Marinus' Treatise On Anatomy, a description "of the cartilaginous bones of the knee on either side".

    Numisianus was of highest eminence during 150s AD, and young Galen tried to gain admissions to his lectures in Rome and Corinth as he himself states (On the Affectations of the Mind, I.1). This Numisianus wrote multiple books on medicine, including ten books on surgery. All these doctors, Marinus, Numisianus, and Galen who was taught by them, were themselves originally taught in lectures by the Roman doctor Quintus, of extraordinary reputation during the 1st century AD, whom Galen references by Greekly-spelling his name, "Kointos".

    One of the mistakes Galen made was believing in the efficacy of bloodletting, which was only proven to be wrong in the late 19th century. Yet as he records in his book On Bloodletting, he was already sharply criticized by the doctors in Rome, and that they strongly objected that it would not work. It was their medical criticism that forced him to write his own treatise of 3 books in which he defended the decision.

    Adds John Watson in The Medical Profession in Ancient Times:
    Having ventured beyond the limits of the capital, we may remark that many of the physicians who taught or practiced there, had been educated in Asia Minor, in the cities of which were many flourishing though now forgotten schools. The names of several distinguished Roman professors, were associated with Ephesus. Among these was Magnus, a writer on the pulse, and the inventor of theriacae after the manner of Heras and Andromachus. Of this same school were the anatomist Rufus, and the second as well as the third Soranus.

    Such was the intellectual situation in the Empire during the 1st and 2nd centuries AD, a felicitous center of science, inheriting discoveries during the Greek period yet in a vigorous intellectual climate magnifying much more upon them.


    Other topics of Louis XI's startlingly broad and uneducated statement will follow, if there's interest.
    Last edited by SigniferOne; August 12, 2009 at 05:04 PM.


    "If ye love wealth greater than liberty,
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    and may posterity forget that ye were
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    Default Re: Roman Advancements

    Excellent post Sig, and for once one I find myself in complete agreement with. I don't know about the rest of VV, but I'd love to see you continue this thread. After having suffered through years of a Greek-biased Classics department, it's nice to see some appreciation for the Romans.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Roman Advancements

    Would be enjoyable if you continue.

    But maybe could you answer directly to what Louis XI writes. He never spoke about Roman architecture, so you're not really responding to his 'fairly puzzling statement'.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LouisXI
    ...architecture idem...
    There it is.


    "If ye love wealth greater than liberty,
    the tranquility of servitude greater than
    the animating contest for freedom, go
    home from us in peace. We seek not
    your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch
    down and lick the hand that feeds you,
    and may posterity forget that ye were
    our countrymen."
    -Samuel Adams

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    Default Re: Roman Advancements

    Now after several threads I've come to the conclusion that SigniferOne and I don't agree in many subjects regarding the late roman empire, but in this he's completely right.

    Roman's didn't only invent some really useful machines, developed constructions techniques and influenced a large part of Europeans languages but their law codes are the basis for many of western policies regarding justice.

    Good post Sig rep+

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    Default Re: Roman Advancements

    Stylistically, Siggy. Stylistically. When does the Pantheon and the Basilica of Maxentius appear? That's what you have. Practically all Roman architecture is merely a copy of Corinthian and Doric models already ripe in Greece centuries before and that until the appearance of these same examples.

    As for my statement that "nothing" was produced by the Romans, yes, I acknowledged I was being too hyperbolic. The Romans were great engineers to be sure, and concrete was a great practical invention, but that's what I'm not concerned about. Modern architecture might use refined structural and engineering techniques but it is still as dull as you can get, duller than even the simple structures found in the Doric period.

    I'll reply to other points, should you raise them, later.
    "Romans not only easily conquered those who fought by cutting, but mocked them too. For the cut, even delivered with force, frequently does not kill, when the vital parts are protected by equipment and bone. On the contrary, a point brought to bear is fatal at two inches; for it is necessary that whatever vital parts it penetrates, it is immersed. Next, when a cut is delivered, the right arm and flank are exposed. However, the point is delivered with the cover of the body and wounds the enemy before he sees it."

    - Flavius Vegetius Renatus (in Epitoma Rei Militari, ca. 390)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Louis XI View Post
    Stylistically, Siggy. Stylistically. When does the Pantheon and the Basilica of Maxentius appear? That's what you have. Practically all Roman architecture is merely a copy of Corinthian and Doric models already ripe in Greece centuries before and that until the appearance of these same examples.

    As for my statement that "nothing" was produced by the Romans, yes, I acknowledged I was being too hyperbolic. The Romans were great engineers to be sure, and concrete was a great practical invention, but that's what I'm not concerned about. Modern architecture might use refined structural and engineering techniques but it is still as dull as you can get, duller than even the simple structures found in the Doric period.

    I'll reply to other points, should you raise them, later.
    Well, Corinthian was far more Roman than it was Greek. I mean by the time the Romans come about to prominence and control Greece, Greeks don't really have much Corinthian architecture around, by which I mean barely any. It was really only popular with the Romans, and since the first Corinthian column appeared only a bit earlier, I would hardly say it was ripe in Greece for centuries.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stavroforos View Post
    Well, Corinthian was far more Roman than it was Greek. I mean by the time the Romans come about to prominence and control Greece, Greeks don't really have much Corinthian architecture around, by which I mean barely any. It was really only popular with the Romans, and since the first Corinthian column appeared only a bit earlier, I would hardly say it was ripe in Greece for centuries.
    There is no such thing as Corinthian architecture, btw. There's such a thing as a Corinthian column order, but it can be applied to any architecture whatsoever. The Greeks applied their columns to post-and-lintel Stonehendge level (sorry) system. The Romans applied their columns too, but to a pier-and-arch system which was a revolution in architecture that's almost impossible to imagine now. Imagine the absence of having to lay horizontal blocks upon vertical blocks.

    By the way, the Greeks during the Roman period availed themselves of these new architectural developments quite a bit. Apollodorus of Damascus, the architect of Trajan, built every one of his great works (Market of Trajan, Forum of Trajan), using the advancements in brick, cement. But these were Roman advancements first of all, and it's only later in the Empire that the Greeks realized to use them too.
    Last edited by SigniferOne; August 04, 2009 at 02:16 PM.


    "If ye love wealth greater than liberty,
    the tranquility of servitude greater than
    the animating contest for freedom, go
    home from us in peace. We seek not
    your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch
    down and lick the hand that feeds you,
    and may posterity forget that ye were
    our countrymen."
    -Samuel Adams

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    Quote Originally Posted by SigniferOne View Post
    There is no such thing as Corinthian architecture, btw. There's such a thing as a Corinthian column order, but it can be applied to any architecture whatsoever. The Greeks applied their columns to post-and-lintel Stonehendge level (sorry) system. The Romans applied their columns too, but to a pier-and-arch system which was a revolution in architecture that's almost impossible to imagine now. Imagine the absence of having to lay horizontal blocks upon vertical blocks.

    By the way, the Greeks during the Roman period availed themselves of these new architectural developments quite a bit. Apollodorus of Damascus, the architect of Trajan, built every one of his great works (Market of Trajan, Forum of Trajan), using the advancements in brick, cement, and arch, and he built the famous bridge over the Rhine using wooden arches. But these were Roman advancements first of all, and it's only later in the Empire that the Greeks realized to use them too.
    I was thinking along the lines of how Doric and Ionian temples have different architectural features, and figured it applied to Corinthian style as well, but my Greek Architecture course never delved into Corinthian style. Thanks for the correction.

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    Default Re: Roman Advancements

    Building techniques of Romans



    Opus
    quadratum: structures in regular blocks of parallelepipen form. In use since archaic period (end of VII start of VI century Bc), was the most favourite technique in the most ancient buildings in Roma (Cloaca Maxima, Servian walls, Aqua Claudia and Tabularium





    Opus incertum: with the introduction of maltha and opus caementicum, was necessary the use of faces, coherent to nucleus, made by smaller size elements. The most ancient type of face's opus incertum, built by little pyramidal tufaceos form blocks, with the vertex soak in the cement of wall and the base of unregular forms in sight. Most ancient examples of this technique in Rome, came from first decade of II century Bc... temple of Magna Mater, Porticus Aemilia







    Opus
    quasi reticulatum: in the face of wall are visible a progressive tendency to regularize the visible part, thru the realization of small tufa blocks always more squared than before. This was a continuos process, in which is possible to underline the final part, the opus reticulatum, in which the joints are tending to link themselves in a continued line to form a web. Most ancient examples of this technique came from the end of II century BC....: Lacus Juturnae, Grifi house on Palatin






    Opus mixtum: born from the union of opus incertum and opus reticulatum. Already at the end of SPQR, Romans started to reinforce previous opus reticulatum buildings, with horizontal fillets of bricks or tiles. In imperial age this techinque mastered with the adding of side scarves. This tecnique has been particulary used during Flavian age and Antoninus Pius







    Opus latericium or testaceum: from the crysis of SPQR starts to appear the first curtains made of fractionated tiles, which substitutes the face made by tufa mini blocks. This technique diffused during the start of imperial age.. first monument to be builted with testaceum are the Castra Praetoria of Tiberian age







    Opus vittatum: in the IV century AD, has been introduced a new type of face made by horizontal fillets of bricks , alternate with parallelepiped of tufa always set in horizontal fillets. this technique is tipique of Maxentius and Constantin eras



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    Yes but even Doric and Ionian 'architectural' features are really just artistic features underneath. Does the doric architecture structurally require the use of metopes? Not in the least, of course, it's just how it's always was done in Greece. Tradition. You could dispense with the metopes and still have Doric columns right? That's what I mean. The Romans dispensed with the rigid necessity of following a certain 'formula', for example see the portico to the Pantheon:



    Also notice essentially an indifference to the example of the Parthenon -- columns are elongated, slender, elegant, quite apart from the stumpy Parthenon columns.

    Never having to follow a formula meant that they could be creative with their architecture, which is why their buildings never have that frozen creativity witnessed in the 19th century Neo-Classical buildings, where everything had to follow a certain formula, or else (you got excommunicated from the Neo-Classical clique, as a heathen, or worse, a Rome admirer ).
    Last edited by SigniferOne; August 04, 2009 at 02:38 PM.


    "If ye love wealth greater than liberty,
    the tranquility of servitude greater than
    the animating contest for freedom, go
    home from us in peace. We seek not
    your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch
    down and lick the hand that feeds you,
    and may posterity forget that ye were
    our countrymen."
    -Samuel Adams

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    Quote Originally Posted by SigniferOne View Post
    Yes but even Doric and Ionian 'architectural' features are really just artistic features underneath. Does the doric architecture structurally require the use of metopes? Not in the least, of course, it's just how it's always was done in Greece. Tradition. You could dispense with the metopes and still have Doric columns right? That's what I mean. The Romans dispensed with the rigid necessity of following a certain 'formula', for example see the portico to the Pantheon:



    Also notice essentially an indifference to the example of the Parthenon -- columns are elongated, slender, elegant, quite apart from the stumpy Parthenon columns.

    Never having to follow a formula meant that they could be creative with their architecture, which is why their buildings never have that frozen creativity witnessed in the 19th century Neo-Classical buildings, where everything had to follow a certain formula, or else (you got excommunicated from the Neo-Classical clique, as a heathen, or worse, a Rome admirer ).
    Well some Ionian temples in the Hellenistic period really went crazy even as far as the interior was built and arranged, but crazy by their standard formulae. The Romans dispensing with that Greek rigidness was indeed a significant step forward.

    And I know exactly how that type of excommunication feels like!

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    Default Re: Roman Advancements

    There is no such thing as Corinthian architecture, btw. There's such a thing as a Corinthian column order, but it can be applied to any architecture whatsoever.
    Any whatsoever, but mostly to architecture of Hellas and Rome, which make its inception.

    Nevermind, Siggy, I don't know what you are trying to contest. If you are saying the Romans were somehow ripe with practical advancements in engineering and stability, then we have no disagreement. If we are going to argue that stylistically, the Romans had great advances and did not rely on already set Greek models (notwithstanding the ways they used to set up their mamooth buildings harder and faster), then that's the disagreement. At least until the Pantheon and the growth in popularity of the domed Basilica, which was perhaps their only break with ancient styles. As to why this distinction is important, I have already said before.
    "Romans not only easily conquered those who fought by cutting, but mocked them too. For the cut, even delivered with force, frequently does not kill, when the vital parts are protected by equipment and bone. On the contrary, a point brought to bear is fatal at two inches; for it is necessary that whatever vital parts it penetrates, it is immersed. Next, when a cut is delivered, the right arm and flank are exposed. However, the point is delivered with the cover of the body and wounds the enemy before he sees it."

    - Flavius Vegetius Renatus (in Epitoma Rei Militari, ca. 390)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Louis XI View Post
    If you are saying the Romans were somehow ripe with practical advancements in engineering and stability, then we have no disagreement. If we are going to argue that stylistically, the Romans had great advances and did not rely on already set Greek models (notwithstanding the ways they used to set up their mamooth buildings harder and faster), then that's the disagreement. At least until the Pantheon and the growth in popularity of the domed Basilica, which was perhaps their only break with ancient styles. As to why this distinction is important, I have already said before.
    You keep trying to split hairs, but the question is really quite simple: did the Romans completely revolutionize how the architecture was done, beginning with the most elementary things? Yes.


    "If ye love wealth greater than liberty,
    the tranquility of servitude greater than
    the animating contest for freedom, go
    home from us in peace. We seek not
    your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch
    down and lick the hand that feeds you,
    and may posterity forget that ye were
    our countrymen."
    -Samuel Adams

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    Default Re: Roman Advancements

    Quote Originally Posted by SigniferOne View Post
    You keep trying to split hairs, but the question is really quite simple: did the Romans completely revolutionize how the architecture was done, beginning with the most elementary things? Yes.
    Clearly, the only one splitting hairs here is you. My view is not even scarcely shattered: all of your examples are either a mamooth rehearsal of antiquated styles (Trajan's Market). Even the Pantheon is just a shy attempt at breaking the old Hellenistic convention, an attempt that would only become firm and surer at the later period of the Principate.

    As for the rest, practical inventions. I mean, I could rebuild the Hagia Sophia entirely with modern concrete, but that would make me merely a copycat - It does not matter if the Roman rehearsals are sturdier or bigger, they are only rehearsals of an old style until an attempt at originality is done in a pale manner after so much time.

    Let me reiterate that the Hagia Sophia was also the direct descendant of the Basilica of Maxentius, which alas all belong to the "later" period of Roman architecture, which you somehow despise and neglect for some mysterious reason given it was the only one that carried the best innovations in style and construction.

    As for the architecture of the Early Principate itself, nothing convinces me it is radically different from the centuries old Hellenic architecture and its inherent "rigidity", which alas, is as much intentional as the lack of perspective in the Dareios Mosaic. Different styles are different styles.
    "Romans not only easily conquered those who fought by cutting, but mocked them too. For the cut, even delivered with force, frequently does not kill, when the vital parts are protected by equipment and bone. On the contrary, a point brought to bear is fatal at two inches; for it is necessary that whatever vital parts it penetrates, it is immersed. Next, when a cut is delivered, the right arm and flank are exposed. However, the point is delivered with the cover of the body and wounds the enemy before he sees it."

    - Flavius Vegetius Renatus (in Epitoma Rei Militari, ca. 390)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Louis XI View Post
    your examples are either a mamooth rehearsal of antiquated styles (Trajan's Market). Even the Pantheon is just a shy attempt at breaking the old Hellenistic convention, an attempt that would only become firm and surer at the later period of the Principate.
    [...]
    As for the architecture of the Early Principate itself, nothing convinces me it is radically different from the centuries old Hellenic architecture


    "Nothing convinces you" is right. I cited you the most authoritative and latest study on the subject, the Lynne Lancaster book, including her judgments on antique architecture. I cited three key innovations which changed every single aspect of what practicing architecture even meant, which means that Roman architects were nothing like their Greek counterparts, and Greek architects couldn't even conceive of how the Roman buildings were constructed and looked. Realize that by this point you're falling back on no facts or objective evaluation, but on your own paltry artistic judgment: Trajan's Market as "antiquated". Pantheon as "shy". I'll let others pass evaluation on your artistic judgments. Facts speak for themselves.


    "If ye love wealth greater than liberty,
    the tranquility of servitude greater than
    the animating contest for freedom, go
    home from us in peace. We seek not
    your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch
    down and lick the hand that feeds you,
    and may posterity forget that ye were
    our countrymen."
    -Samuel Adams

  17. #17

    Default Re: Roman Advancements

    I think the only one using your own artistic valuations and opinions is you, Siggy. Any layman can notice the artistic similarity even in between the Pantheon (which is of a transitional architecture) and Hellenistic architecture, or any temple set up with the same specifications everywhere around the Imperium Romanum. "Nothing like their Greek counterparts?" - That's the best piece of subjective opinion laid here. A Greek would certainly not know how the World Trade Center was laid, but he would probably agree it was the dullest form of architecture he ever met. A Greek might have not known structural advances made in the one hundred years of the Early Principate, but he might as well have felt at home everywhere in Rome with the same old styles. The same old columns, the same old layouts, almost everything the same. Carry on.

    As always, you miss the point.
    Thus to get back on topic even if the Early empire was stylistically conservative or whatever that does not equal technological stagnation nor does it suggest has you have elsewhere the somehow the Greco-Roman world was less likely to be innovative than China - or provided any kind of metric to measure or demostrate said assertion.
    At least on the topic of architecture, the Early Principate was still struggling out of Hellenism. That's what I really meant - It can be as much a sign of "conservatism" as it is of "artistic stagnation".
    Last edited by Marie Louise von Preussen; August 04, 2009 at 03:16 PM.
    "Romans not only easily conquered those who fought by cutting, but mocked them too. For the cut, even delivered with force, frequently does not kill, when the vital parts are protected by equipment and bone. On the contrary, a point brought to bear is fatal at two inches; for it is necessary that whatever vital parts it penetrates, it is immersed. Next, when a cut is delivered, the right arm and flank are exposed. However, the point is delivered with the cover of the body and wounds the enemy before he sees it."

    - Flavius Vegetius Renatus (in Epitoma Rei Militari, ca. 390)

  18. #18
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Roman Advancements

    Even the Pantheon is just a shy attempt at breaking the old Hellenistic convention, an attempt that would only become firm and surer at the later period of the Principate.
    Well you are to an extent confusing outward appearance with rigidity. I mean if deciding to keep touches that are evocative of Greek temples is some indicator technological rigidity than we are still trapped in that rigidity.

    I would disagree with Sig on arches and vaults because I think the evidence suggests they were already entering Greek/Hellenistic architecture by the 4th century BC, but there is a clearly difference between the Pantheon and the Parthenon - they may have retained some outward characteristic features but there is nothing is rigid in the development of interior space from one to the other.

    Perhaps It might be more fruitful to note that style is difficult indeed to judge since we have such an incomplete set of work or a good feel for how much input anyone artist no matter his skill had on composition vs the tastes of the one paying. Understanding perspective is one thing but that does not mean everyone wants a drafting display for art... I revisit the this point mainly because I am still baffled by your strange ideal about intellectual space and you feeling the Classical was negatively bounded compared to imperial/Han (/) China.

    Thus to get back on topic even if the Early empire was stylistically conservative or whatever that does not equal technological stagnation nor does it suggest has you have elsewhere the somehow the Greco-Roman world was less likely to be innovative than China - or provided any kind of metric to measure or demostrate said assertion.
    Last edited by conon394; August 04, 2009 at 03:15 PM.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  19. #19
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Roman Advancements

    A Greek might have not known structural advances made in the one hundred years of the Early Principate, but he might as well have felt at home everywhere in Rome with the same old styles. The same old columns, the same old layouts, almost everything the same. Carry on.
    And that says what exactly??? I can get on a plane and have the same experience of interior commercial space all over America in a McDonald's, or dive by strip malls that are identical all across North America, and commercial space is depressingly similar cubicals look the same round the world. Greco-Roman culture was a unified whole by the time of the Empire why would they not do the same we do and build what they were comfortable with - changing only gradually.

    Sure the odd sky scraper looks odd or unusual but mostly you get a big rectangle with more or less glass, and or more or less concrete - been that way for a while and the interior space is just generic commercial space and lofts and what not.
    Last edited by conon394; August 04, 2009 at 03:28 PM.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  20. #20

    Default Re: Roman Advancements

    Siggy, if you want to argue that the Pantheon is "innovative" or that technical, as opposed to artistic, advancements were the best fruit of the Early Principate, then I will not press the issue further. I agree - However I still firmly state that it took a long time before Rome could give the style conveyed in the Pantheon, that of a domed basilica, free rein from Hellenistic architecture. It's a long way between it proper and the Hagia Sophia, which is no less Roman but which makes the appropriate and free use of domed structures and vaults without the need for a Doric or Hellenistic residue.

    Indeed, I would go further and state that from the Pantheon on the only proper Roman style begins to flourish.
    "Romans not only easily conquered those who fought by cutting, but mocked them too. For the cut, even delivered with force, frequently does not kill, when the vital parts are protected by equipment and bone. On the contrary, a point brought to bear is fatal at two inches; for it is necessary that whatever vital parts it penetrates, it is immersed. Next, when a cut is delivered, the right arm and flank are exposed. However, the point is delivered with the cover of the body and wounds the enemy before he sees it."

    - Flavius Vegetius Renatus (in Epitoma Rei Militari, ca. 390)

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