Germany invades Belgium!

[UnitedIreland]

Today is the anniversary of Germany invading Belgium in 1914, which leds Britain to declare war on Germany. I was thinking that instead of talking about the causes and effects of the war, we could discuss the 'What Ifs?' Like, what if Britain didn't declare war on Germany or what if Germany didn't invade through Belgium etc.

[cupoftea]

If Britain didn't declare war on Germany, Belgium would have been overrun in a couple of weeks instead of the months, and Germany might have had enough time for the von schliefenplan to work. If Germany did not invade Belgium I'm sure the harbour of Antwerp would have been used to get food and material into the war zone. Either way, I think our little country did as good as it could against ze Germans

[Mangalore]

If Britain didn't declare war on Germany, Belgium would have been overrun in a couple of weeks instead of the months, and Germany might have had enough time for the von schliefenplan to work. If Germany did not invade Belgium I'm sure the harbour of Antwerp would have been used to get food and material into the war zone. Either way, I think our little country did as good as it could against ze Germans

Maybe I'm mistaken, but the British met the Germans in France, not Belgium so I don't see how that would have effected Belgian determination. However the lack of the BEF might have indeed helped the Schlieffenplan to succeed because I think to remember the encounter with the BEF pulled a German army corps (leading other corps in contact with it to follow suit) further west leading to the front opening exploited by the French latter in the Marne battle.

Without Britain France would have faced a serious ressource shortage so even if successfully staving of the German army at first the industrial potential of Germany could have outstripped France and overcome its fighting capability within a comparatively short amount of time. Or the lack of British soldiers would have meant that French forces would have been distributed too thin to prevent a broad forced breakthrough at a time the trenches had not been dug to their final form, yet.

Without Alsace and Lothringa the French were in dire need of coal and iron which in turn germany could turn against them.

[Guderian's Duck]

There were, in fact, British troops called to Belgium as the Germans invaded. Many would die in defending Belgian forts.

[Phalanx300]

Damn British, if it wasn't for them then we would have squashed their little Belgian rebellion long ago.

[konny]

However the lack of the BEF might have indeed helped the Schlieffenplan to succeed because I think to remember the encounter with the BEF pulled a German army corps (leading other corps in contact with it to follow suit) further west leading to the front opening exploited by the French latter in the Marne battle.

The opening was caused by the 1st (German) Army withdrawing troops from its left flank; i.e. the joint to the second army, to defend its own right against the garrison of Paris. The BEF, which was south of Paris had not much to do with it. It was also rather by chance that the BEF was opposing this opening. And the BEF was also not alone advancing towards the opening what caused the German retreat, but (was) accompanied a French army.

So, for the situation on the Marne and the fail or success of the Schlieffen-Plan the question whether the British had joined the war in France with 7 division or not was very limited. In return the advance through Belgium was absolutly vital and without it there had not been the little chance of success that there was in August/September 1914 to quickly end and win the war in the West.

[Mangalore]

The opening was caused by the 1st (German) Army withdrawing troops from its left flank; i.e. the joint to the second army, to defend its own right against the garrison of Paris. The BEF, which was south of Paris had not much to do with it. It was also rather by chance that the BEF was opposing this opening. And the BEF was also not alone advancing towards the opening what caused the German retreat, but (was) accompanied a French army.

So, for the situation on the Marne and the fail or success of the Schlieffen-Plan the question whether the British had joined the war in France with 7 division or not was very limited. In return the advance through Belgium was absolutly vital and without it there had not been the little chance of success that there was in August/September 1914 to quickly end and win the war in the West.

I have fuzzy memory but wasn't the problem, that the German armies north of Paris overshot the aimed for goal because of an early encounter with the BEF which then maneuvered away into this position?

Anyhow, has been a year or two since I looked up that stuff.

[Maximus Macro]

why was my post deleted im belgian i can say what i want about my country

[BasileII]

If Britain didn't declare war on Germany, Belgium would have been overrun in a couple of weeks instead of the months

Belgium was crushed in days, even with british help. Germans were passed the Marne river at the beginning of september, and the war began a month before.

Of course, some parts of Belgium were still holding (I think of Anvers). But the belgian forts, at Liège and Namur, fell in days, and after that Germans just steamrolled BEF and Franchet d'Espérey's army (the fifth, I think).

Still, the Germans had to pass by Belgium to attack the French. Attacking through the fortified border would have been suicidal. But without the BEF, and even if it fought horribly during most part of the war, the French would have then losed.

[Tankbuster]

Of course, some parts of Belgium were still holding (I think of Anvers). But the belgian forts, at Liège and Namur, fell in days, and after that Germans just steamrolled BEF and Franchet d'Espérey's army (the fifth, I think).

Wow, wow, wow.
The Belgian Forts at Liège and Namur held out for about 10 days. Every frontal attack the Germans tried, failed. Erich Ludendorf, the general of the German First Army, eventually had to ask for heavy siege guns to be transported from Germany to the battlefield, so they could destroy the forts one by one.

This resistance slowed down the German advance for almost two weeks! That's two extra weeks the French had to mobilise their troops, allowing them to hold back the Germans (with great difficulty) at the Marne, which was arguably the most important German defeat in the entire war.
Without the Belgian forts, Paris could very well have fallen.

[gsoxx]

Wow, wow, wow.
The Belgian Forts at Liège and Namur held out for about 10 days. Every frontal attack the Germans tried, failed. Erich Ludendorf, the general of the German First Army, eventually had to ask for heavy siege guns to be transported from Germany to the battlefield, so they could destroy the forts one by one.

This resistance slowed down the German advance for almost two weeks! That's two extra weeks the French had to mobilise their troops, allowing them to hold back the Germans (with great difficulty) at the Marne, which was arguably the most important German defeat in the entire war.
Without the Belgian forts, Paris could very well have fallen.

The German army marched through Belgium almost exactly as scheduled. While some forts held out for some days longer, their guns were already destroyed and the Imperial Army swarmed around them long before their final capitulation. The use of heavy siege guns was also planned and incorporated into the war plans exactly for this and no ad-hoc improvisation.
The Belgian forts were considered as one of the most formidable defenses in the world and were supported by well equipped and strenghtened infantry divisions. The fact that Belgian resistance lasted only the time it did was a major shock for the Entente as they thought they didn't have to hasten their troops into Belgium too much.

As for the topic: The German general staff had plans for an offensive focused on Russia called "Großer Aufmarsch Ost". But they were essentially abandoned some years before the war as rather unrealistic. The Russian army when hard pressed had almost limitless room to retreat and there were no real important hard targets in the immediate reach.
If they deny a decisive battle (think of Napoleon) the German would stand there with empty hands whereas France could act in the west relatively unhindered.

[BasileII]

Wow, wow, wow.
The Belgian Forts at Liège and Namur held out for about 10 days. Every frontal attack the Germans tried, failed. Erich Ludendorf, the general of the German First Army, eventually had to ask for heavy siege guns to be transported from Germany to the battlefield, so they could destroy the forts one by one.

This resistance slowed down the German advance for almost two weeks! That's two extra weeks the French had to mobilise their troops, allowing them to hold back the Germans (with great difficulty) at the Marne, which was arguably the most important German defeat in the entire war.
Without the Belgian forts, Paris could very well have fallen.

I didn't say the Belgians were useless. Somebody said they resisted for months. As this is false, I just pointed out the fact that in a month, the Germans were way passed Belgium.

[Blacknight_1990]

I didn't say the Belgians were useless. Somebody said they resisted for months. As this is false, I just pointed out the fact that in a month, the Germans were way passed Belgium.

We Belgians resisted the Germans the entire war, we held on to a small part called the Westhoek, the area of Ypres. Yes this was a very small part of Belgium and it was defended by large numbers of Commonwealth and French soldiers but the Belgian army also kept fighting. The Belgian army also participated in the final Allied offensives during 1918, in wich 12 Belgian divisions (170.000 men) fought.

http://www.cheminsdememoire.gouv.fr/...n&idPage=13626

[Comrade the Colonel]

oh come on, i thought this was talking about modern times, you got me all worked up

[jasper]

ther was a reason that britain declared war on germany because at the forming of belgium britain has made a sort of deal if belgium staud at every war neutral than belgium had the protection of britain sow if germany not invaded belgium than britain has no reason to go tho war with germany

[Xerrop]

ther was a reason that britain declared war on germany because at the forming of belgium britain has made a sort of deal if belgium staud at every war neutral than belgium had the protection of britain sow if germany not invaded belgium than britain has no reason to go tho war with germany

Nah, I think the Brits would still have declared war on Germany (but maybe only some months later). They were allied with Russia and France, and before one of them would be in serious trouble they would have landed troops to avoid a German Empire dominating Europe.

Still, the Germans had to pass by Belgium to attack the French. Attacking through the fortified border would have been suicidal. But without the BEF, and even if it fought horribly during most part of the war, the French would have then losed.

Exactly, the extra manpower (and resources) of the UK didn´t allow the Germans to bleed out France. So it´s very simple, with a neutral UK the Germans would have won due to their superior numbers (68 million inhabitants against 40 millions) and ressources.

[jasper]

yes but that aliance is also a point