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    antares24's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Forget the Great in Great Britain

    I was reading an interesting article from Newsweek http://www.newsweek.com/id/209953, that talks about the post economic crisis situation of the UK. Here's the article:

    Forget the Great In Britain
    Its fall was inevitable, but the economic crisis will shrink the last pretenses of empire faster than anyone expected.

    By Stryker McGuire | NEWSWEEK

    Published Aug 1, 2009

    From the magazine issue dated Aug 17, 2009

    Even in the decades after it lost its empire, Britain strode the world like a pocket superpower. Its economic strength and cultural heft, its nuclear-backed military might, its extraordinary relationship with America—all these things helped this small island nation to punch well above its weight class. Now all that is changing as the bills come due on Britain's role in last year's financial meltdown, the rescue of the banks, and the ensuing recession. Suddenly, the sun that once never set on the British Empire is casting long shadows over what's left of Britain's imperial ambitions, and the country is having to rethink its role in the world—perhaps as Little Britain, certainly as a lesser Britain.

    This is a watershed moment for the United Kingdom. The country's public debt is soaring, possibly doubling to a record high of 100 percent of GDP over the next five years, according to the International Monetary Fund. The National Institute for Economic and Social Research forecasts that it will take six years for per capita income to reach early-2008 levels again. The effects will cascade across government. Budgets will be slashed at the Ministry of Defense and the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, affecting Britain's ability to project power, hard and soft. And there's little that can be done to reverse the trend, either by Prime Minister Gordon Brown or by the incoming government of David Cameron's Conservatives, assuming they win a general election that must be held within the next 10 months. As William Hague, Cameron's deputy and shadow foreign secretary, said in a recent speech: "It will become more difficult over time for Britain to exert on world affairs the influence which we are used to."


    History has been closing in on Britain for some time. The rise of giant emerging economies like China and India always meant that Britain would have a smaller seat at the increasingly crowded top table of nations. It also meant that the United States would recalibrate the so-called special relationship as it sought new partners and alliances, inevitably shrinking the disproportionate role Britain has long played in world affairs. Brown's predecessor, Tony Blair, made a final stab at greatness with what amounted to a 51st-state strategy: by locking Britain into America's wars—on terror, in Afghanistan, and in Iraq—London achieved an importance it hadn't had since Churchill and the war. But whatever advantage Britain gained in the short term was wiped out by the political damage Blair's strategy caused at home. Ordinary Britons and even members of the British establishment grew increasingly critical of what they saw as London's subservient relationship with Washington. Blair's authority was diminished, his political agenda at home suffered as a result, and it became clear that Britain's geopolitical default setting would no longer be to automatically follow America's lead. In fact, Blair may merely have postponed the inevitable: a lesser Britain is a consequence of world events, not unlike the slow relative decline of the United States, which finds itself today where Britain was at its apogee.

    The global recession has hit virtually every country, but Britain more than most. The great engine room of British prosperity, the financial sector, now feels like an anchor. Britain has slipped into deflation—a decline in general price levels—for the first time in 50 years. The IMF believes Britain's economic slump will be deeper and longer than that of any other advanced economy. The number of Britons claiming unemployment benefits has jumped from 1.3 million (4.6 percent of the workforce) in 1999 to more than 2 million and is on track to top 3 million. The Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development says Britain's recovery may begin later this year, but will lag behind those of other rich countries like Japan and the United States. At the moment, Britain is arguably saddled with the worst public finances of any major nation, thanks to voracious spending in recent years and to borrowing that is growing faster than in other developed nations or even fast-growing developing ones. Britain is so heavily indebted that one political commentator dubbed it "Iceland-on-Thames," suggesting Britain could follow that nation into bankruptcy.

    What makes the British case stand out even more is that it is the only country of its size in recent history that has sought such a disproportionately large role on the world stage. During the Cold War, Margaret Thatcher saw herself as second only to Ronald Reagan as a leader who helped to bring down the Soviet Union and make the world safe for capitalism. During Blair's decade in office, from 1997 to 2007, Britain fought three wars—in Kosovo, Afghanistan, and Iraq—in which its military participation was right behind that of the United States. Now that's changing. "Although we are a relatively wealthy country and we have a seat on the U.N. Security Council, we are a power in decline," says Ian Kearns of the Institute for Public Policy Research, which recently conducted a British security review. Paddy Ashdown, a former leader of the Liberal Democrats who took part in the IPPR study, recalled the gibe by the late U.S. secretary of state Dean Acheson in 1962: "Great Britain has lost an empire and has not yet found a role." Britain found its footing for a while, but Acheson's words sting again today. "If you were to say we haven't found a role," says Lord Ashdown, "it's true."

    The U.K. still maintains one of the largest defense budgets in the world, but probably not for much longer. Recently, as the number of British deaths in Afghanistan has risen dramatically during the summer fighting season, both Labour and the Conservatives have felt obliged to say they would not reduce defense spending, so as not to put troops at greater risk. But in the longer term, experts say big cuts are inevitable. In a recent paper for the Royal United Services Institute, Malcolm Chalmers estimates that the Ministry of Defense budget will be cut by 11 percent in real terms over the next six years. Other estimates are much higher. Ashdown, a former Royal Marine, has said the annual £35 billion Ministry of Defense budget might have to be cut by almost a quarter, which would put Britain more in line with traditionally lower-spending continental powers.

    Britain's role in the world will shrink with its budget. A cash-starved British Army would have important implications for NATO, already weakened by the fuzziness of its post–Cold War mission. As it stands, Britain is usually second only to the United States in terms of troop commitments to NATO operations such as Afghanistan, and its loyalty to the cause has encouraged other European NATO partners to do their part. Flagging British commitment will have the opposite, depressing effect and could further alter transatlantic alliances by boosting the relative power of France, which only recently reentered NATO's integrated military-command structure. Long before Britain's withdrawal from Iraq earlier this year, the U.S. military hierarchy was concerned about growing British domestic opposition. Now, as the focus shifts to Afghanistan and British military casualties rise there, public support for that war is waning, too; in a July poll, a majority said the war is "unwinnable" and that British troops should be withdrawn immediately. It hasn't helped that troops and officers have complained of equipment shortages. It was the cause of some embarrassment a few weeks ago that Gen. Richard Dannatt, the head of the British Army, had to hitch a ride on an American Black Hawk helicopter while visiting British troops in Helmand province because a British chopper wasn't available.

    The future of Britain's nuclear force, the ultimate symbol of a great power, is also uncertain. Britain's submarine-based Trident missile system is due to be replaced over the next decade at a cost of some £20 billion. But according to a recent Guardian/ICM poll, 54 percent of the British people say Britain should give up its nuclear deterrent altogether. That's unlikely, but it may force the next government to find a cheap way to extend Trident's life span. Traditionally, being a nuclear power was one way of securing permanent membership on the U.N. Security Council, and any downgrading of Britain's deterrent could strengthen the demands of big emerging powers that they should have more seats on the council, possibly at Europe's and the U.K.'s expense.

    Britain, having paid a steep political price for the hard power it wielded in Iraq and recognizing the limits to the money it can pour into weapons systems and the like, is keen to project soft power. But the government is seemingly weakening what should be a chief instrument of soft power, the Foreign and Commonwealth Office. The legacy of Iraq and Afghanistan is "strategic incoherence" and has left the FCO adrift, says Christopher Meyer, a former British ambassador to Washington. FCO cuts suggest that the diplomatic corps, once the envy of the entire world, is losing the bureaucratic wars. In 2004, the FCO closed 19 overseas missions out of about 300. In Australia, New Zealand, Germany, France, Spain, and the United States, some consulates were downgraded, leaving only local personnel in place. Since then, the FCO has cut staff from 6,000 to 4,000. This year's FCO budget of £2 billion is widely expected to be pared to £1.6 billion in the next fiscal year.

    The glory days of the City of London are now grinding to a halt, too. The main symbol of Britain's global might—the City boasts walls from Roman times—found financing for some of the world's earliest and most prominent multinational companies, and has had greater influence in global finance than Westminster has had in geopolitics. London stole the march on Wall Street by seizing the highest-growth areas, like hedge funds, exotic derivatives, and the like. Unluckily for London, these areas were also the hardest hit by the financial crisis. But now London, like New York, awaits a slew of new national, regional, and global regulation that appears likely to diminish its role in the world for years to come. The European Union has already endorsed the creation of a Systemic Risk Board with oversight powers that will include the City, even though Britain is outside the euro zone and is not a member of the European Central Bank, whose members will appoint the SRB chair. Britain has sidestepped such intervention in the past, but this time is different. Germany and France appear intent on restraining the excesses of Anglo-Saxon capitalism and may seek to engineer reforms that steer a greater share of global capital flows into more cautious continental hands.

    When the dust settles, both the City and Wall Street will likely remain preeminent but less so, confronting rival financial power centers in Europe and Asia. It can also be argued that London, as the glitzier icon of laissez faire, will pay a steeper price than Wall Street in the financial new world order. Ever since the "big bang" of the 1980s, London has regulated the banking industry with a light touch—controlling bankers' practices with sets of principles, rather than law on the books as in the U.S. If European regulations are "harmonized" to include London and if London's light touch gets a little heavier, the City could suddenly become "more antagonistic to the institutions that are being regulated," as Andrew Hilton of the Centre for the Study of Financial Innovation in London puts it. In that event, financial centers like Singapore and Hong Kong could draw business away from the City.

    Britain's bout of reflection on its last gasps of empire comes at a natural point in its history. The Great Recession came as a surprise and has accelerated the trend, but the rise of China, India, and Brazil, and the changing ties to a declining America, have been visible for many years. As America turns to building new ties with the advancing powers of Asia and Latin America—even sending its top envoys to promise its creditors in China that the U.S. will handle its debts responsibly—-Britain can only feel less special. The nation is in the totally predictable grip of the ennui and general grumpiness that accompany the end of a political era.

    Eleven years ago, the year after Tony Blair's Labour Party had swept to victory, ending 18 years of Conservative rule, he spoke in Dublin of a Britain that was "emerging from its post-empire malaise." He was characteristically optimistic. He said he hoped the Irish saw Britain as a country that was "modernizing, becoming as confident of its future as it once was of its past." Those were indeed heady times for Britons. Phrases like "New Labour" and "new dawn" and "new Britain" were not yet curdling on the tongue. Today, Blair is two years out of office, Labour's reign 12 years old. His successor, Gordon Brown, suffers from a gray, been-there-too-long aura. Long gone is the cultural ferment of "Cool Britannia" that made London the capital of cool in the early Blair years. The gloom was made all the deeper in recent months by a parliamentary-expenses scandal that heaped public scorn on politics and politicians alike.

    Pity the prime minister who takes over from Brown. A Conservative victory at the next election—a victory by any party at the next election—would have little of the game-changing feeling that accompanied Blair's triumph 12 years ago. Then, Britain bought into Blair's mantra because it was real enough: the economy had already begun a period of unprecedented growth, immigration was enriching the country, an entrepreneurial fervor crackled across even the old industrial heartland. Today that has evaporated. The great test of the next prime minister, and probably the one after that, will be not only to redefine Britain's place among great nations but also to renew the kind of spirit that has ruled Britannia in the past.
    what do you think of the article?

    Will the UK debt really reach 100% of GDP in 5 years? Will that force the Gov. to slash the defence budget by almost a quarter and renounce to its nuclear capabilities as the autor say, would the "special relationship" with the USA continue, and would the global standing of the UK become much smaller in just a few years?
    Can the probably incoming Conservative majority change this situation, or it's a hopeless task as the article suggest?
    Last edited by antares24; August 03, 2009 at 07:08 PM.
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  2. #2
    Heinz Guderian's Avatar *takes off trousers
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    Default Re: Forget the Great in Great Britain

    I'm gonna dress like the guy with assless chaps in Mad Max 2.




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    Default Re: Forget the Great in Great Britain

    Quote Originally Posted by Heinz Guderian View Post
    I'm gonna dress like the guy with assless chaps in Mad Max 2.
    I'll follow a Mad Max wanabee.

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    2-D Ron's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Forget the Great in Great Britain

    Quote Originally Posted by mongrel View Post
    I'll follow a Mad Max wanabee.


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    It soooo Works!

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    Default Re: Forget the Great in Great Britain

    Quote Originally Posted by Heinz Guderian View Post
    I'm gonna dress like the guy with assless chaps in Mad Max 2.
    you should be glad that an ally of the USA is dying!

    go on, cheer for the UK's doom! hahaha everyone here expects it

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    Default Re: Forget the Great in Great Britain

    Quote Originally Posted by antares24 View Post
    I was reading an interesting article from Newsweek http://www.newsweek.com/id/209953, that talks about the post economic crisis situation of the UK. Here's the article:



    what do you think of the article?

    Will the UK debt really reach 100% of GDP in 5 years? Will that force the Gov. to slash the defence budget by almost a quarter and renounce to its nuclear capabilities as the autor say, would the "special relationship" with the USA continue, and would the global standing of the UK become much smaller in just a few years?
    Can the probably incoming Conservative majority change this situation, or it's a hopeless task as the article suggest?
    Although I like Newsweek, I really doubt that the UK would fall. And predicting the economy is no easy feat.
    Quote Originally Posted by Caduet View Post
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    Target eliminated.
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    Comes Domesticorum
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    Default Re: Forget the Great in Great Britain

    The Great in Great Britain has long been excessive and unrealistic, lol.

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    Yorkshireman's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: Forget the Great in Great Britain

    Quote Originally Posted by Stavroforos View Post
    The Great in Great Britain has long been excessive and unrealistic, lol.
    Apart from the fact that its a geographical reference and not a statement of how 'Great' Britain is.

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    Default Re: Forget the Great in Great Britain

    Quote Originally Posted by Yorkshireman View Post
    Apart from the fact that its a geographical reference and not a statement of how 'Great' Britain is.
    Chill bro, I know.

    I mean, it's obvious it's not a statement of how 'Great' Britain is.

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    Lord Claremorris's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Forget the Great in Great Britain

    Quote Originally Posted by Yorkshireman View Post
    Apart from the fact that its a geographical reference and not a statement of how 'Great' Britain is.
    Technically it has everything to do with Britain being 'great.' At least in relation to the islands in it's group. Wouldn't that mean that Ireland could be referred to as 'Lesser Britain?'
    "Ghlaoigh tú anuas ar an Toirneach, agus anois bain an Chuaifeach."

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    Default Re: Forget the Great in Great Britain

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Claremorris View Post
    Technically it has everything to do with Britain being 'great.' At least in relation to the islands in it's group. Wouldn't that mean that Ireland could be referred to as 'Lesser Britain?'
    Brittany is lesser Britain.
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    Default Re: Forget the Great in Great Britain

    Originally Posted by scheuch13 View Post
    The evidence is not really pathetic. Iraq did have WMDs at one point, it continued to kick out UN weapon inspectors to ensure that they no longer had the weapons, and its believed that saddam moved alot of the "evidence" out of country just prior to the invasion.
    That debate has ended long time ago, time to face the facts here Scheuch or face the danger that nobody will take you serious. And you are already firmly in the danger zone.

    KARACHI: Director General of the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) Mohamed ElBaradei said during an interview with Time magazine that the biggest regret of his career was his failure to do more to prevent the US attack on Iraq on false pretexts.

    The 67-year-old Egyptian is currently serving his third five-year tenure as head of the international nuclear watchdog, during which time he led UN nuclear inspectors in Iraq in the run-up to the US invasion in 2003.

    In response to a reader question on what the least satisfying moment of his career was, ElBaradei pointed to the launch of the Iraq war.

    ‘[The US invasion] worked counter to our mandate because we continued to report to the Security Council that there was no evidence that Iraq had revived its nuclear weapons programme,’ he told Time.

    ‘Every time I see that hundreds of thousands of people lost their lives on the basis of fiction, not fact, it makes me shudder.’ http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/...aradei--szh-08

    UN weapons inspectors were thrown out because one of its members was spying for the USA by the way, later admitted by the US government itself. Stop believing fairy tales.

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    Default Re: Forget the Great in Great Britain

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Claremorris View Post
    Technically it has everything to do with Britain being 'great.' At least in relation to the islands in it's group. Wouldn't that mean that Ireland could be referred to as 'Lesser Britain?'

    Ireland is Ireland. The Emerald Isle, never has been fully part of the political entity that is Great Britain. So not really, and do you think that the Irish would like that idea? They have been trying to get rid of us for long enough! lol! Islands tend to breed nations with independant and xenophobic tendencies. Not getting at anyone at all in anyway shape or form just saying that the natural gap tends to create a mind set that hates foreign interference (see the UK's reaction to any EU action) and is xenophobic, due to the lower chances of interaction with other cultures.

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    Ältester der Motten's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Forget the Great in Great Britain

    Quote Originally Posted by Player989random View Post
    And predicting the economy is no easy feat.
    That is an understatement.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stavroforos View Post
    The Great in Great Britain has long been excessive and unrealistic, lol.
    Not really, it's still the great one of the two.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rt. Hon. Gentleman View Post
    True, true. Some colonies would have preferred a greater British military commitment for a greater amount of time, but as you say most just wanted us the hell out!
    Yes, nationalism is a silly thing.

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    Default Re: Forget the Great in Great Britain

    there is a saying in chinese, "even is the dying camel is bigger than a horse". Don't be so sure and so quick to discount britain yet.
    Have a question about China? Get your answer here.

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    Default Re: Forget the Great in Great Britain

    More need for them to relie on the EU when it comes to having a voice to be heard globally.

    Will the UK debt really reach 100% of GDP in 5 years?
    Who knows? How long will the crisis last? Is the UK willing to make that kind of debt? All in the open, at least the UK had a relative low debt before the crisis compared to lets say France and Germany.
    Will that force the Gov. to slash the defence budget by almost a quarter and renounce to its nuclear capabilities as the autor say
    That would make massive sense IMO. They dont need nukes when France has them. And when they lapdog the US less they could easily save a quarter of the budget.
    would the "special relationship" with the USA continue
    I think that the entire EU has a "special relation" with the US as well, but it cant be the lapdog way. The last years the Atlantic relation was also heavily poisoned by the Bush government, which course is now also very unpopular in the US itself. If the US keeps it that way I dont see the EU or the UK change the overall status, but Ill doubt the UK will ever let itself be tricked like Iraq again.
    and would the global standing of the UK become much smaller in just a few years?
    Financial global standing: yes.
    Cultural global standing: no.
    Political: yes.
    Can the probably incoming Conservative majority change this situation, or it's a hopeless task as the article suggest?
    I think they the UK needs a change, because labor is just pathetic right now and is also catching more blame then they deserve caused by the current situation, which is a very unhealthy domestic situation. If the Tories will solve things smoothly: Ill doubt it, but lets see.
    Last edited by Thorn777; August 03, 2009 at 07:42 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by snuggans View Post
    we can safely say that a % of those 130 were Houthi/Iranian militants that needed to be stopped unfortunately

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    Yorkshireman's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: Forget the Great in Great Britain

    UK a lapdog ? Germany's had British and US troops sat on its soil for 60 years. What does that make your country ?

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    Default Re: Forget the Great in Great Britain

    Quote Originally Posted by Yorkshireman View Post
    UK a lapdog ? Germany's had British and US troops sat on its soil for 60 years. What does that make your country ?
    Different situation. You know the deal.
    Quote Originally Posted by snuggans View Post
    we can safely say that a % of those 130 were Houthi/Iranian militants that needed to be stopped unfortunately

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    Default Re: Forget the Great in Great Britain

    Quote Originally Posted by Thorn777 View Post
    You know the deal.
    Genocide.
    falnk with cavlary. stay a way from muder hoels.

  20. #20

    Default Re: Forget the Great in Great Britain

    Quote Originally Posted by Yorkshireman View Post
    UK a lapdog ? Germany's had British and US troops sat on its soil for 60 years. What does that make your country ?
    Being occupied by the US and their lapdog.

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