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Thread: Censorship: The Difference between Protection and Surpression

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  1. #1
    Junius's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Censorship: The Difference between Protection and Surpression

    Censorship has always been a sore spot for Western governments. Entrusted with a duty to protect it's citizens from attack, while also needing to conform to the tenant of press freedom. Freedom of Speech is perhaps the defining freedom of western democracy, and even monarchy as seen in the protection offered by and to the British in previous centuries.

    There have been recent examples of the seemingly conflicting ideas of freedom of speech and right to privacy or to not have libelous information disseminated about yourself, a group you belong to or a belief that you have. One close to home was the recent Irish Blasphemy Law.

    This brings me to my chief concern about censorship. There is a movement today to afford protection from criticism. While an attack on atheism on it's central beliefs, or more correctly non-beliefs (You only believe in one more god than I do, while also dismissing, with me, the rest of them.) would not be greeted by the same protests that would accompany an attack on Christianity (or any religion) by an atheist.

    Censorship should never be used to insulate a person or population from the threat of new ideas, or of challenging old ideas. That is what these blasphemy laws are. Libel is different, in that attempts to stop the spread of false information. Blasphemy, since it only relates to theology and religion, is the challenging of unprovable ideas. Since they are unprovable, they can neither be proved right or wrong. There should be no protection for religion.

    Freedom of religion, belief and thought are different from having those same things protected from attack. It only protects the individual from attack because they hold those beliefs.

    Censorship is also used to stop true debate, about history, a nation or a belief. Take, for example, the oft debated Armenian Genocide. There were Turkish Laws in place to prosecute those that talked of the Genocide. There are still people on this board that think that it did not happen, or that it can be 'excused'. While I do not want this to spiral into a debate about the Genocide, I will point out that it did happen, it was Genocide, and Genocide is wrong. I am merely using it as an example.

    There are now new rules which make it punishable to show pictures of genocide. This is censorship, possibly at it's worst. I do not support the right of people to not be offended. People's beliefs, including my own, should be examined and then they should be challenged. This is inherently offensive, but protecting me or any other person from this would stunt their academic growth, and would be a far worse offense. That is why I am opposed to these new rules. While I will not break them for the sake of breaking them, I will not shy away from breaking them to highlight where a person is wrong, and try to educate and convince them of the truth. Be it from a denier of the Armenian Genocide or a supporter of female genital mutilation, I will use, with suitable 'warning' images which may offend.

    Fundamentally, I believe that the right to learn and teach comes before the right to not be offended, indeed I do not believe that there is or should be any such right. The way a government protects it's people is not be shutting them away from new ideas, but to educate them, so that they can also look at and critically examine those and different ideas. That a government, including the one at TWC (it is a government in the sense that it governs this site), should stop it's citizens and members from learning and being educated is a far greater crime than having some people's sensibilities and qualms broken.

    That is why censorship, except in libelous cases, will also be damaging and harmful to a people, and I have no doubt that it will, in the end, bring down the quality of debate on these forums. It is a bad and bold step to take, and I am sorry that people would ever think such measures are justified.



    Though this thread deals mainly with the idea of censorship, and that it harms rather than protects the people, I do realise that some specific examples I used will be debated and commented on. While I support your right to do so, as reading my opening will make clear, this will usually be not the place to do it. I do, however, welcome comments about the recent policy shift of the site, and will respond to them. I will not talk about the Irish Blasphemy Laws or the Armenian Genocide, not in this thread at least. I would appreciate it then if comments were kept on topic, pertaining to that about censorship in the abstract, as well as the possible consequences of it, using TWC as a ready and easy example.
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  2. #2

    Default Re: Censorship: The Difference between Protection and Surpression

    Good post.

    Even selective censorship is censorship. After all, if you censor one thing, no matter the excuse, you are open to censor everything depending on interpretations.
    Ugly as the north end of a pig going south

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  3. #3

    Default Re: Censorship: The Difference between Protection and Surpression

    Censorship is very dangerous to any extent, because there's always the question of who decides what's censored, and things can get out of hand, either slowly or quickly. I'm for almost complete freedom of speech, except where issues of national security are at stake (obviously the head of MI5 can't go shooting his mouth off about sensitive info). People should be free to criticise any idea or religion though, provided they are not being libelous, and it is dangerous to call those who do racist.

  4. #4
    Ahlerich's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Censorship: The Difference between Protection and Surpression

    good reasonable post. this is a tough topic as the border between protection and supession is often hard to see and not clear to define

  5. #5

    Default Re: Censorship: The Difference between Protection and Surpression

    My most annoying personal trait, possibly (according to GF), is my tendency to tune out conversations which either disinterest me or distract me from whatever task is at hand. I'm sure I'd have been diagnosed ADHD if I'd been born a decade later. I've lately realized that this may be a social survival mechanism, this self-censorship. Nothing really seems to bug me, things roll off my shoulders much more so than most people, and I am about the most relaxed and stress-free folks around. My girlfriend is the polar opposite in many respects, and we make quite the complimentary couple.

    Naturally, I'm against any authoritarian form of censorship. If you don't like hearing something, don't listen. If you really don't like something, start speaking up for yourself and become the countervoice to those who offend you.
    Giving tax breaks to the wealthy, is like giving free dessert coupons to the morbidly obese.

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  6. #6
    Groenepuntmuts's Avatar Miles
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    Default Re: Censorship: The Difference between Protection and Surpression

    Which brings us to the following: what things exactly are censored on TWC?

    Could I denie the WO II Genocide?
    ( in all honesty, I wasn't there when it happened, altough I think it did happen, but let's just say I'd denie it... )
    Last edited by Groenepuntmuts; August 08, 2009 at 07:55 AM.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Censorship: The Difference between Protection and Surpression

    Discussing the genocide in Turkey may be criminalized, but France has made denying the Armenian genocide illegal. It's completely ridiculous on both sides.

  8. #8
    Denny Crane!'s Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Censorship: The Difference between Protection and Surpression

    Government and private websites are two completely different things and shouldn't be confused. Furthermore as with all things on TWC everything in context and done with care and attention to others will generally escape the notice of the moderators or be ignored. The rules are their for people who would make a mockery of the site and intentionally disrupt it.

  9. #9
    Junius's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Censorship: The Difference between Protection and Surpression

    I think I made it clear that I was only roughly equating the government of TWC with that of real Nation States. I was using the word as in something which governs, runs or oversees something, like the Hex does with TWC. When a site elevates some members as Citizens so that they can take part in the running of the site, I think that governing body can safely be describe as a government. Though this is all just semantics, generally things, when they come to the nub of the issue, are just that.

    You seem more concerned about the motive than the crime. If I posted a deep, informative and challenging article relating to the Holocaust, showing, with photographs, the victims of that genocide, I would have committed the same crime as someone who posts those same pictures just to upset or annoy. Is that right? That the same crime should be treated differently depending on the judge's, in this case a moderator, opinion of it's merits. Say if a moderator were a Holocaust denier and I posted the same article. Would the moderators actions be justified in excercising the regulations?

    Can you now see my problem with the new rules? Overall, I am not against the sentiment of the rule, to protect people, especially minors, from lewd and gross imagery. But given the right context, it seems that this rule is justifiably broken. If it can be laid aside in one instance, it cannot be enforced in all instances. You see the moderators need to enforce the ToS equally, so that everyone is held to them. If they can choose which rules can be enforced where, then the system breaks. This rule is a bad rule, from it's inception to it's implementation. I cannot understand how you can justifibily stand by it.
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  10. #10
    Denny Crane!'s Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Censorship: The Difference between Protection and Surpression

    Quote Originally Posted by Junius View Post
    I think I made it clear that I was only roughly equating the government of TWC with that of real Nation States. I was using the word as in something which governs, runs or oversees something, like the Hex does with TWC. When a site elevates some members as Citizens so that they can take part in the running of the site, I think that governing body can safely be describe as a government. Though this is all just semantics, generally things, when they come to the nub of the issue, are just that.

    You seem more concerned about the motive than the crime. If I posted a deep, informative and challenging article relating to the Holocaust, showing, with photographs, the victims of that genocide, I would have committed the same crime as someone who posts those same pictures just to upset or annoy. Is that right? That the same crime should be treated differently depending on the judge's, in this case a moderator, opinion of it's merits. Say if a moderator were a Holocaust denier and I posted the same article. Would the moderators actions be justified in excercising the regulations?
    Thats where the various checks and balances come in. Most moderators decisions are ratified by others, especially if someone objects therefore that allows a retention of a fairly high level of objectivity.

    Can you now see my problem with the new rules? Overall, I am not against the sentiment of the rule, to protect people, especially minors, from lewd and gross imagery. But given the right context, it seems that this rule is justifiably broken. If it can be laid aside in one instance, it cannot be enforced in all instances. You see the moderators need to enforce the ToS equally, so that everyone is held to them. If they can choose which rules can be enforced where, then the system breaks. This rule is a bad rule, from it's inception to it's implementation. I cannot understand how you can justifibily stand by it.
    It is not just to prevent minors but to prevent abuse of the site and it's members through intentional disruption. Its working pretty well so far and I'm always far more inclined to base things off results. I've seen outcries on this site from day to day from month to month. Often it is the same people doing the most vociferous loud shouting, the same people from 3 years ago... other than that the site generally functions very well and that I can live with.

  11. #11
    Claudius Gothicus's Avatar Petit Burgués
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    Default Re: Censorship: The Difference between Protection and Surpression

    Who can stop State sponsored censorship?, OK some rules should always be respected but really blasphemy laws? There's always going to be some guy who gets offended by something someone said, people have to stop complaining and start living.

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  12. #12
    favre4ever's Avatar Tiro
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    Default Re: Censorship: The Difference between Protection and Surpression

    Quote Originally Posted by Claudius Gothicus View Post
    Who can stop State sponsored censorship?, OK some rules should always be respected but really blasphemy laws? There's always going to be some guy who gets offended by something someone said, people have to stop complaining and start living.
    Agreed. And the people can stop the censorship by continually voicing opinions contrary to how the state allows.
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