The Phalanx

[DekuTrash]

I was looking over some stuff regarding the Phalanx and I wondered.....

Could the formation be used to defend breaches in walls?

Saw Kingdom of Heaven the other day, at the end when they break through the wall. Wondered how a proper Phalanx could have done

[Del Valle]

I suppose it would do well, but so would any other discplined and organized group of men. I'm no expert though.

[Comrade the Colonel]

yes

[DekuTrash]

I guess they would need the sarissas to.....or some long spears. If it would be used in medieval times

[Salem1]

Basically, if you can't flank or somehow disorganize the phalanx you can't win against it. Trying to break in frontally through a wall against a prepared phalanx falls under the category of ''can't win against it'', although I'm sure that there would be exceptions, but they're just that - exceptions.

[AlSeeByeAhDeeze]

Basically, if you can't flank or somehow disorganize the phalanx you can't win against it. Trying to break in frontally through a wall against a prepared phalanx falls under the category of ''can't win against it'', although I'm sure that there would be exceptions, but they're just that - exceptions.

It's doable (at least in RTW) it's just exceptionally messy and you have to be prepared to take all kinds of casualties. I wouldn't say 'can't win against it' so much as 'completely insane to try'. It's just not worth the cost.

as for the OP, in RTW they're absolutely amazing at plugging the breaches in walls. Just incredible, a solid mass of killers who stab anything that tries to enter.

[DekuTrash]

Dang, I wonder if anyone ever tried it.

It's doable (at least in RTW) it's just exceptionally messy and you have to be prepared to take all kinds of casualties. I wouldn't say 'can't win against it' so much as 'completely insane to try'. It's just not worth the cost.

Yeah but that's RTW and it's archaic engine

[AlSeeByeAhDeeze]

Dang, I wonder if anyone ever tried it.

Yeah but that's RTW and it's archaic engine

Hehe, true enough.

I'm sure it was done before. Although from the reading i've done, the Greek Phalanxes (and Macedonian) spent their time fighting outside their walls on the plains where they could mass their phalanx armies and push and shove at each other until they broke.

The Spartans were so cocky, competent and deadly they didn't even bother building walls for their city since they figured they could kill anyone long before they got near Sparta. Now that's badass.

[DekuTrash]

Yup

I was wondering if it coulda been used in later centuries

[AlSeeByeAhDeeze]

Depends how late you're talking tbh... I imagine they could have been used for quite some time. Pikemen were a kind of Phalanx if you ask me, and they were widely used throughout Europe for quite some time right up to the use of Pikemen/Musketeers by the Spanish in their Tercios. That kind of massed spearmen worked rather well until the advent of widespread musketry.

[Salem1]

That kind of massed spearmen worked rather well until the advent of widespread musketry.

Depends... I assume you know about pike versus pike battles. As far as I remember, they didn't work rather well to the point that troops wanted to avoid them whenever they could. Don't remember where I read it though. Oh yes, now I remember - push of pike: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Bad-war.jpg

[AlSeeByeAhDeeze]

Depends... I assume you know about pike versus pike battles. As far as I remember, they didn't work rather well to the point that troops wanted to avoid them whenever they could. Don't remember where I read it though. Oh yes, now I remember - push of pike: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Bad-war.jpg

Ah true enough. In my haste i'd forgotten about the source of the infamous phrase 'push of the pike'. Hence the years and years of siege/countersiege throughout (western) europe. Thanks for the correction.

[Aetius]

Nah, all you would have do is get guys with javelins and throw it at them.

[Henry X]

That picture was filled with lulz.

Really, a few guys with crossbows or arbalesters would've workded just fine against a phalanx.

[Genius of the Restoration]

Really, a few guys with crossbows or arbalesters would've workded just fine against a phalanx.

Seconded.

[antaeus]

what i always wondered in that scene in kingdom of heaven..

was why they didnt have people in behind the fighting trying to repair the breach, or throw up temporary walls just inside the old ones..

instead they left the breach open.. and it was still a gaping hole in the wall the next day in the film.

i guess its hollywood so i cant exactly complain...

[Watchman]

AFAIK wall breaches are wont to be some *very* bad footing which doesn't mix well with pikemen... ergo why both defending and assaulting them tended to be done with handier weapons, looser formations and often enough (at least in them olden times, but I've seen mentions in Late Medieval and Renaissance contexts too) javelins.

[konny]

what i always wondered in that scene in kingdom of heaven.. was why they didnt have people in behind the fighting trying to repair the breach, or throw up temporary walls just inside the old ones...

For what good? When the enemy had machines to breach the solid real wall, a temporay thing of mud, wood and the remains of the old wall wouldn't help much either. Having a breach in the wall was usually the sign to start negotiations in ernest and surrender the place.

[conon394]

Really, a few guys with crossbows or arbalesters would've workded just fine against a phalanx.

Odd argument seeing as close order formations survived them in reality.

...

Thucydides provides a good and detailed description of siege fighting by man who were hoplites in normal circumstances and as Watchman points out they defiantly did not do business as usual (3.22) The rather carried a mix of light amour, bows, javelins or small swords, other spears, and still other carried extra weapons and acted as porters in essence for the others in case they suddenly needed more equipment.

...

was why they didnt have people in behind the fighting trying to repair the breach, or throw up temporary walls just inside the old ones..

instead they left the breach open.. and it was still a gaping hole in the wall the next day in the film.

Maybe things were diffrent in the middle ages - but in the classical world at least building a wall behind any potential breech was rather typical.

[Homeros]

Odd argument seeing as close order formations survived them in reality.

No, in all its manifestations the phalanx remained a fairly clumsy and brittle instrument with only a limited capacity to adjust to technical or tactical challenges.

The Gastrophetes, a large but man-portable crossbow illustrates how technical threats to the (phalanx system) were marginalized. It was (apparently) deliberately suppressed by the Greeks, a significant act since the roughly simultaneous appearance of the crossbow in China would have a major effect in undermining close combat there.

Tactically, the phalanx was completely outclassed at the arrival of a new kind of soldier armed with Spanish short swords and the tactical flexibility to make their worst nightmare come true. They were Romans and for the next millennium and a half the phalanx would be a thing of the past.