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  1. #1

    Default Epirote Elephants and other elephant suggestions

    I meant to post on this some time ago, but forgot.

    The elephants Pyrrhus took to Italy are not African elephants, but Indians. The description for the Epirote elephants says that they are Africans and that Pyrrhus got them from the Ptolemies.
    Thats not correct.

    One might well ask, how did Indian elephants get to Macedonia? And elsewhere in Europe!
    So here goes.

    The Macedonians captured some 50 elephants (not sure of the numbers) after Gaugamela.
    In addition, large numbers of elephants were acquired during Alexander's campaign in India.
    Either through capture from defeated Kings/satraps etc or as gifts.
    Alexander had 200 elephants in India (Arrian VI, 5.5).

    When Alexander died, Perdiccas took control of the Royal army and the elephants with them.
    During the settlement of Babylon, Perdiccas used the elephants and cavalry to impose his will upon the infantry. I believe he had the ringleaders of the opposition amongst the infantry crushed to death by the elephants.

    As we all know, Perdiccas was soon at war with Antipater, Craterus and Ptolemy amongst others.
    Perdiccas proceeded to attack Egypt but was unable to force a crossing.
    After failing to take Pelusium, Perdiccas used the elephants to act as a ford in the river to stop his men being swept away. Apparently this had the unforeseen problem of making the crossing more hazardous as the elephants stirred up the river bed making the footing untenable for the crossing soldiers.
    Many men were drowned or attacked by crocodiles ("devoured by the animals in the river" according to Diodorus).

    The approach of Antipater and his army combined with these setbacks led to Perdiccas being murdered by his officers. With Perdiccas out of the picture, this led to the settlement of Triparadeisos.
    Antigonus was to become overlord of Asia and took command of the royal army in order to fight Eumenes, Attalos, Alketas and the other Perdiccan forces in Asia Minor.
    Antigonus was also charged with protection of the Kings.
    Kassander was appointed Antigonus' chiliarch. I have read that this assignment was due to Antipater not trusting Antigonus. But I think this was a sign of good faith on Antipater's part.
    Also, on his death he made Kassander chiliarch to Polyperchon also.

    Antigonus was initially inactive. Kassander went to Antipater before he left Asia Minor to return to Macedon and a modification to the treaty of Triparadeisos was made.
    (The view that Kassander was plotting against Antigonus is the view of hindsight. Kassander may well have pleaded Antigonus case).
    The royal army was a mutinous bunch and gave trouble to Antigonus, Antipater and even Alexander before his death. They were unreliable, especially as they were expected to face former comrades.
    The Silver Shields are a prime example of being difficult to handle.
    From his own army, Antipater gave Antigonus 8,500 Macedonian infantry, 1500 companion cavalry and half the elephants, which amounted to 70 from his army (Arrian I, 42-43).
    In return Antigonus handed over the most unruly Macedonian elements in the royal army and care of the Kings. Antigonus later had to allow another 3,000 Macedonians to return home to Macedon rather than them join Alketas etc.
    Along with the unruly elements of the Royal army, Antipater returned to Macedonia with 70 elephants.

    With Antipater's death, these elephants passed to Polyperchon.
    Polyperchon used 65 elephants in his failed attempt to storm the Piraeus (Diodorus XVIII, 68.2).
    Megalopolis was also able to fight off Polyperchon and his elephants(Diodorus XVIII, 70-71).
    When Kassander drove Polyperchon out of Macedonia, he captured some of Polyperchon's elephants(Diodorus XIX, 39.7).
    When Kassander besieged Olympias in Pydna, he starved her into submission.
    The remainder of Polyperchon's elephants were "fed on sawdust and died" (Diodorus XIX, 49.3).
    If there were any surviving elephants from Pydna, they would have fallen into Kassander's lap.
    Kassander used his newly acquired elephants against Argos and Epidaurus in 316 BC (History of Macedonia pg 316).

    The next influx of elephants into Macedonian Europe would have surely come after the Ipsus campaign.
    With the defeat and death of Antigonus by Seleucus and Lysimachus, they divided up his empire and his military forces. I would think that Lysimachus would have wanted what remained of the elephant corps of Antigonus. He didn't have an elephant corps and Seleucus might well have been fine with this as Lysimachus could not compete with him in the field of elephants regardless. The price for this might have been Seleucus being able to enroll heavy infantry from the defeated army in which he was quite deficient.
    I could be wrong about this, but were not the Hypaspists of Antigonus (inherited from Eumenes) enrolled into the Seleucid military. Seleucus had presumably enrolled/reformed the silver shields when he had taken control of the east.
    While this is basically speculation on my part, it certainly is the first opportunity Lysimachus would have had to create his own elephant corps.

    When Kassander died in 297 BC, his kingdom fell into chaos, his eldest son died, and his two remaining sons, Antipater and Alexander, eventually fought each other. Alexander appealed to Demetrius and Pyrrhus for aid, with Demetrius being the first to respond. Alexander realizing he had made a mistake, decided to do away with Demetrius. Demetrius caught wind of this plot, and in turn had Alexander killed.
    Antipater fled to Lysimachus. Demetrius took control of Macedon, and with it Kassander's former elephant corps. Pausanias ( 1, 12.3) states that Pyrrhus captured some elephants after defeating Demetrius in battle. Demetrius can only have acquired elephants from the Macedonian herd.

    By 287 BC Demetrius had been driven from Macedon in a two pronged attack by Lysimachus from the east and Pyrrhus from the west.
    Its possible that Lysimachus and Pyrrhus split the Macedonian herd, but its seems more likely that Lysimachus took them all when Macedon was divided between them.
    Soon Lysimachus turned on Pyrrhus and took all of Macedon.

    Little is known of the Korupedion campaign.
    Now enters Ptolemy Ceraunus. The thunderbolt. When Lysimachus killed his son, Agathocles, kicking off the collapse of his kingdom and giving Seleucus an opportunity to attack, Ceraunus fled to the court of Seleucus with his sister, Lysandra, Agathocles wife, and their children.
    Lysimachus other wife, Arsinoe, who convinced Lysimachus to kill Agathocles, was also sister to Ceraunus. Go figure!

    Seleucus invaded Asia Minor during the winter of 281, which must have made it quite difficult for Lysimachus to muster a sufficiently strong army.
    (As was evidenced during the contest between Antigonus and Eumenes, getting your elephants mustered during the winter is no easy thing. Antigonus' forces nearly captured Eumenes' elephants who were one of the last units to answer the call to muster).
    The seemingly total collapse of his position in Asia Minor suggests that Lysimachus might have had to wing it and cross to Asia Minor with the troops he had, leaving his elephants behind.
    In any event, he was defeated and his empire was Seleucus' for the taking.

    If Seleucus had elephants for the Korupedion campaign, which I think he must have, it seems unlikely he would have taken them with him to Europe. If he did take them, Ceraunus appropriated them.

    Upon their arrival in Europe, Ceraunus promptly murdered Seleucus and took over the European part of Lysimachus' kingdom i.e. Thrace and Macedon.
    Ceraunus had a lot of potential threats to face.
    Seleucus' son and heir, Antiochus, would surely want revenge.
    Antigonus Gonatas in Greece launched an attack that Ceraunus was able to beat off. There was also the wife of Lysimachus, Arsinoe and her children to deal with.
    Last, but far from least, was Pyrrhus. He must surely have been considered the most dangerous threat for Ceraunus, especially with the problems facing Antiochus after his father's death.
    Subsequently, Ceraunus seems to have loaned Pyrrhus troops as the price of peace.
    Pyrrhus received 5,000 infantry, 4,000 cavalry and 50 elephants from Ceraunus (Justin XVII, 2.14).
    That Ceraunus could give Pyrrhus 50 elephants suggests that Lysimachus was not able to take his elephant corps to Asia Minor to fight Seleucus. Ceraunus retained some elephants, but as to how many is any ones guess. He was apparently thrown from his elephant when he was defeated and killed in battle against the invading Gauls (A History of Macedonia III, pg 253). Ceraunus clearly still had some elephants left after giving Pyrrhus 50.
    Antigonus Gonatas seems to have inherited the remaining elephants when he took over Macedon in 277 BC.
    Pyrrhus defeated Gonatas in 274 BC and captured his elephants (A history of Macedon III, pg 261).
    In 272 BC Pyrrhus was killed in a confused night battle while trying to take Argos. His elephants could not get into the city with their towers on and this caused a lot of confusion.
    Antigonus Gonatas is recorded with elephants a few years later when he took Megara (Polyaenus IV, 6.3).
    Whatever elephants were still left in Macedon and Greece after all this fighting, they were now almost certainly in the hands of Antigonus Gonatas who presumably took over whatever elephants Pyrrhus had.

    The bottom line is that no african elephants were given to Pyrrhus.
    According to H.H. Scullard, the capturing and training of African elephants most likely started during the reign of Ptolemy Philadelphus. Bases were established during his reign on the nile and on the red sea for transport of captured elephants as well as trading posts.
    The Ptolemies also had some Indian elephants captured from Demetrius at the battle of Gaza in 313 BC.
    Some must have still been in service, but replacement Indian elephants wasn't going to happen.
    So they needed to establish a corps of African elephants to try and offset the Seleucid elephants.
    The time frame doesn't really allow for African elephants to have been supplied to Prryhus by the Ptolemies. Pyrrhus was in Italy in by 280 BC. Philadelphus was king for maybe two or three years at this point.
    Also, I can't imagine the Ptolemies commiting 30 or 40 elephants to transports when one considers that Antigonus Gonatas had a pretty solid fleet and well placed strategic naval bases in Corinth and Demetrias.
    In my opinion, it would have been a big risk trying to get the elephants to Greece this way.
    And such a venture would surely have been mentioned in the sources. All of them!
    Elephants in the hulls of ships for a week or two? Thats almost up there with taking a bunch of elephants over, shall we say, the Alps!

    There is also no evidence that the good relations enjoyed between Pyrrhus and Ptolemy Soter extended to Soter's son, Philadelphus. Prryhus and Soter apparently referred to each other as father and son.

    As far as the game goes, I would love to see Macedon and the Ptolemies start with Indian elephants.
    The same as the Bactrian Indian elephant unit perhaps. Also, if they are able to grab a territory with the Indian elephant resource, then be able to recruit Indian elephants.
    The same for Epirus.

    Just a suggestion.

    Hope you enjoyed my novel!

  2. #2
    Caligula Caesar's Avatar Horse Lord
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    Default Re: Epirote Elephants and other elephant suggestions

    Wow! Poor elephants!

    If I ever get round to getting rid of the CTD in my mod, I'll try and do this.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Epirote Elephants and other elephant suggestions

    Hey now!

    I got taught on a similar site that if you want to make a point, quote the sources.
    So I did!
    And perhaps I waffled and waffled and waffled!
    But quote the sources I did!

    Indian elephants all around please!

  4. #4
    Caligula Caesar's Avatar Horse Lord
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    Default Re: Epirote Elephants and other elephant suggestions

    So, did Antiochos have elephants when he fought against the Romans at Magnesia? If so, what became of them?

  5. #5

    Default Re: Epirote Elephants and other elephant suggestions

    They took to drinking and then joined the circus.

    Antiochus had Elephants at Magnesia! I think it was 54 in total.
    I don't know how many survived. I would think the majority of them did. The Romans captured 15 or so.
    In any event, Antiochus had to give the other elephants up as part of the treaty of Apamea.
    I want to say the Romans gave the Indian elephants to Eumenes of Pergamum.
    But they might have taken them back to Rome too.

  6. #6
    Antonov's Avatar Civis
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    Default Re: Epirote Elephants and other elephant suggestions

    These elephants sure saw much of the contemporary world didn't they I'll see what I can do about changing the starting units.

    It would be great if you can look around for other inaccuracies. I like reading ancient history very much but can't find the time for it right now..

    Edit: Some light on the current 'elephant situation':
    I'll give you the current elephant units in the following format:


    ================
    Owner Faction
    ================
    Name derived for our convenience in this thread (type entry from export_descr_unit.txt, dictionary entry from the same file, used to look up the description text which is in ExRM\Data\text dir) use the model entry from export_descr_unit.txt model (line line number from export_descr_unit.txt where this unit's section starts)
    mount is mount parameter value from export_descr_unit.txt

    The elephant units right now are as follows (from ExRM\Data\export_descr_unit.txt)

    ================
    Carthage
    ================
    Carthaginian elephants (
    carthaginian elephant forest, rtr_carthaginian_elephant_forest) use the
    numidian_small_elephant_archer
    model (line 8244, export_descr_units)
    mount is elephant forest


    Carthaginian towered elephants (carthaginian elephant forest tower, rtr_carthaginian_elephant_forest_tower) use the
    numidian_small_elephant_archer
    model (line 8352)
    mount is elephant forest tower



    ================
    Egypt
    ================
    Egyptian Elephants (egyptian elephant forest, rtr_egyptian_elephant_forest) use the
    rtr_egyptian_elephant_forest model (line 8271)
    mount is elephant forest

    Egyptian Tower Elephants (egyptian elephant forest tower, rtr_egyptian_elephant_forest_tower) use the
    greek_elephant_archer model (line 8406)
    mount is elephant forest tower

    Egyptian Elephant Cataphracts (egyptian elephant cataphract, rtr_egyptian_cataphract_elephant) use the
    greek_elephant_archer model (line 8460)
    mount is elephant forest cataphract


    ================
    Numidia
    ================
    Numidian elephants (numidian elephant forest, rtr_numidian_elephant_forest) use the
    rtr_numidian_elephant_forest model (line 8298)
    mount is elephant forest

    Numidian Towered Elephants (numidian elephant forest tower, rtr_numidian_elephant_forest_tower) use the
    numidian_small_elephant_archer model (line 8433)
    mount is elephant forest tower

    Numidian Elephant Cataphracts (numidian elephant cataphract, rtr_numidian_catphract_elephant) use the
    numidian_small_elephant_archer model (line 8487)
    mount is elephant forest cataphract

    Numidian Punic elephants (aor numidia punic elephant, rtr_aor_numidia_punic_elephant) use the
    numidian_small_elephant_archer model (line 8325)
    mount is elephant forest

    Numidian Punic Towered elephants (aor numidia punic elephant tower, rtr_aor_numidia_punic_elephant_tower) use the
    numidian_small_elephant_archer model (line 8379)
    mount is elephant forest tower


    ================
    Bactria
    ================
    Bactrian elephants (bactrian elephant, rtr_bactria_elephant) use the
    greek_elephant_archer model (line 8541)
    mount is elephant indian


    ================
    India (rebels)
    ================
    Indian AOR elephants (aor india elephant, rtr_aor_india_elephant) use the
    javelineer_small_elephant model (line 8514)
    mount is maurian elephant

    Indian elephants (indian elephant, rtr_seleucid_elephant) use the
    greek_elephant_archer model (line 8568)
    mount is elephant indian

    Indian Elephant Cataphracts (indian elephant cataphract, rtr_seleucid_elephant_cataphract) use the
    seleucid_big_elephant_archer (line 8622)
    mount is elephant indian cataphract


    ================
    Mercenary
    ================
    Mercenary elephants (merc elephants, rtr_merc_elephants) use the
    greek_elephant_archer
    model (line 8595)
    mount is elephant indian


    ================
    AOR + Epirote (I don't know why the Epirotes don't have their own section, all their units and unit descriptions are listed in the AOR sections in files)
    ================

    Custom Numidian Punic Elephants (aor numidia punic elephant custom, rtr_aor_numidia_punic_elephant) use the
    numidian_small_elephant archer model (line 10641)
    mount is elephant forest

    Custom Numidian Punic Tower Elephants (aor numidia punic elephant tower custom, rtr_aor_numidia_punic_elephant_tower) use the
    numidian_small_elephant archer model (line 10668)
    mount is elephant forest
    tower

    Custom Indian Elephants (aor india elephant custom, rtr_aor_india_elephant) use the
    javelineer_small_elephant model (line 10700)
    mount is maurian elephant


    Custom Mercenary Elephants (merc elephants custom, rtr_merc_elephants) use the
    greek_elephant_archer model (line 10722)
    mount is elephant indian


    Slave Indian Elephants (slave india elephant, rtr_aor_india_elephant) use the
    javelineer_small_elephant model (line 10799)
    mount is maurian elephant

    Epirote Elephants
    (epirote elephants, rtr_epirote_elephants) use the
    greek_elephant_archer model (line 11189)
    mount is elephant
    indian

    That's all of them. Quite disorganized. And notice the inconsistent use of plural and singular for "elephant". Anyway, I'll compare stats and see which type of elephant unit exactly would be appropriate to replace the Ptolemaic, Macedonian and Epirote elephants with. Then I'll make the changes for the Epirote elephant statistics, model, description and unit card. Right now, if you start a game with the Ptolemaians you don't start with any elephant units but you can recruit Egyptian (African) elephants in Alexandria. With Epirus you cannot train any elephants but you start with a unit of Epirote elephants in Italy.

    Edit:
    After comparing, I can say the Epirote Elephants are practically the same (secondary weapon stats are slightly increased) as the Indian Elephants. I'm not sure if the models are used correctly because I don't know how should an Indian elephant look like and I haven't seen all the elephant models used in RTR.

    If I should add elephant starting units to the Macedons and Ptolemaians, I'll need you to tell me how many.

    As for recruitment of elephants, there is only one "elephants" resource. No separate resources for African and Indian elephants. But if I'm not mistaken, I believe this resource is used for the "ivory" trading resource and doesn't determine wether or not you can recruit elephant units. That's determined by the Area of recruitment. So your suggestion for factions being able to recruit Indian elephants if owning Indian elephant territories is addressed, I think.

    Edit:
    Judging by the description and statistics, I think the type of Indian elephant that the Ptolemaians and Macedonians should possess is the Indian AOR elephants unit. It has better characteristics than the Indian elephant (which itself is solely recruitable by the Seleucids) and its description speaks only about Indians not about Seleucids using it. The question that remains for me is how many elephants should I add for the Macedonians and for the Ptolemaians? If you can tell me that, I'll add the elephant units for these factions in descr_strat.txt and they'll be available when you start a new campaign.
    Last edited by Antonov; August 06, 2009 at 07:07 AM.

  7. #7
    Wien1938's Avatar Miles
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    Default Re: Epirote Elephants and other elephant suggestions

    The elephants being used by the Successors would be the AOR model, except with a macedonian pikeman behind the mahout. Pyrrhos seems to have introduced towers for his elephants and I think we can speculate that this was a recent development given the difficulty of accessing elephants and their tendency to go berserk from missile fire - the towers provide a more stable fighting platform from which missile troops can fight. Elephants tactically should increasingly be shielded by light infantry to keep the enemy's skirmishers away!
    I'd recommend the Epirote elephant as standard, given that he was given his by Keraunos!

  8. #8
    Antonov's Avatar Civis
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    Default Re: Epirote Elephants and other elephant suggestions

    That's ok, since the stats are almost identical (between the Indian AOR Elephant and the Epirote elephant, just the Epirote elephant having slightly stronger attack parameters if I remember correctly). I chose the Indian AOR Elephant because of its generic description text. I wouldn't like the players reading info on how Pyrrus got "these" elephants when they right click the Ptolemeian-owned elephant unit.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Epirote Elephants and other elephant suggestions

    Pyrrhus is generally given credit for being the first to put towers on elephants.
    My view would be that the Macedonians would have followed this innovation.
    If you are going to have Indians elephants as starting and or recruitable units for the other Successor states, then they probably ought to be along the same lines as the Bactrian and Seleucid Indian elephant i.e. Un-armoured elephants with tower and archers. Just make the colors yellow for the Ptolemies, black for the Macedonians. The Epirote elephant is already in place. It just needs the info card changed.
    And to be recruitable if you are able to capture territories with the Indian elephant resource.
    This is just my opinion of course.


    As far as numbers go, I'm not sure how you weighted it for Epirus and the Seleucids.
    One would think that the Seleucids ought to have more elephants.
    Its actually a bit of a mystery as to what happened to the 500 elephants Seleucus had 20 years prior.
    Antiochus had to wait for 20 elephants to be brought up from the east prior to the Elephant battle with the Gauls in Asia Minor. So I guess one unit of elephants is right.
    In any event, here goes.

    Ptolemaic Indian Elephants

    At the battle of Gaza in 312 BC, Demetrius had 43 elephants (Diodorus XIX 69.1 & 82, 2-4).
    Ptolemy was seemingly able to capture most of Demetrius's elephants (Diodorus XIX 83 -84).
    I would have thought a few elephants would have been killed or escaped, but it would seem Ptolemy may well have captured the majority, if not all of the Antigonid elephants at Gaza.
    By 280 BC, one would think that a majority of these elephants might well have died or become too old.
    Ptolemy may even have been able to breed a few Indians.
    I think probably one unit of Indian elephants for the Ptolemies.

    Macedonian Indian Elephants

    Antipater took back to Europe 75 Elephants. Lysimachus almost certainly inherited whatever remained of these elephants when he took over eastern Macedonia in 287 and the whole of Macedonia in 285.
    To these, he may very well have been able to add the Antigonid elephants captured after Ipsus.
    Antigonus had 75 elephants at Ipsus ( Plutarch, Demetrius 28.3).
    Seeing as Elephants can apparently live upto 70-80 years, its possible that the elephant corps of Lysimachus left in Europe was quite large when Ceraunus took it over.
    If Seleucus had transported his own elephants to Europe after Korupedion, then this force could well have been over a hundred strong. Perhaps more.
    Ceraunus gave Pyrrhus 50 elephants accoring to Justin. Which is an awful lot because it implies to me that there could very well have been over a hundred elephants in Europe. I just don't see Ceraunus giving Pyrrhus more than half his elephants.
    And Antigonus Gonatas got his hands on what seems like quite a few of them when he took over Macedon.
    Consequently, I would probably add two units of elephants for the Macedonians.


    Epirote Indian Elephants

    The sources do conflict a little on where Pyrrhus got his elephants from.
    Pausanias states that he captured some elephants from Demetrius. He defeated Demetrius in 288 BC.
    But there is no source that states him using elephants before his Italian adventure. This doesn't mean he didn't have them prior though.
    And Justin states that Ceraunus gave(loaned) him 50 elephants.
    Maybe he got some elephants in both instances.
    Plutarch (Pyrrhus 15) states that Pyrrhus took 20 elephants to Italy. Which makes it a little awkward to reconcile the numbers with Justin.And its possible that Ceraunus actually only gave Pyrrhus 20 elephants. But its also possible that Pyrrhus left some of the elephants in Epirus. Which seems very likely to me. I can only imagine the amount of transports needed to transport 20 elephants across the adriatic, not to mention the difficulty. Double the headache for transporting 50 elephants.
    And would Pyrrhus really have risked his whole elephants corps at once?
    The Romans apparently were able to capture eight elephants and kill two more according to Dionysius.
    And the way Pyrrhus used elephants, I think he may well have had more than 20.
    I would probably give Epirus two units of elephants.


    To be really honest, the only thing that really needs to be done is to simply make an Indian elephant unit for the successor states. Adding one, two, three, four etc is a moot point.
    Even a boob like me can add an extra unit or two of epirote elephants in the descr_strat file.
    Just copy and paste the epirote elephant info above or below. Or add more to another epirote army.

    A couple of mods back, I had a great Macedonian campaign where I was able to get Indian elephants only in India. I needed an elephant resource and to be in India.
    I removed the India part in the buildings file and when I got the Levant under control, I was able to recruit Indian elephants. Unfortunately, these were the painted ones generally found in India. Not the ones I was expecting along the lines of the Bactrian, Epirote and Seleucid ones. Not painted and with archers in the towers.

    If you are going to make Indians recruitable for the other successor states, which I think is a good idea, you should differentiate between Africans and Asian/Indian elephants when it comes to where you can recruit them. For example, you should not be able to recruit Indian elephants in Egypt. Which is what I think happened for me during one Seleucid campaign. I'm not 100 % sure of this though.
    Likewise, you should not be able to recruit African elephants in Syria or elsewhere.
    Last edited by Sardaukar One; August 06, 2009 at 04:51 PM.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Epirote Elephants and other elephant suggestions

    Wien is probaly quite right that the Epirote and Macedonian elephants used had pikemen on the elephant's back behind the mahout. And would presumably have had pikemen in the towers when towers became the norm.
    But elephants were also used as a screen and in anti-cavalry roles. In which case archers would surely have made more sense. Also, one of the reason for the towers, apart from extra protection for the elephants as Wien pointed out, was to have an elevated position for your missile troops.
    So I think its a toss up as to what sort of units you include in the tower from an historic standpoint.
    From a game standpoint, elephants with archers have a distinct advantage over elephants without archers.
    In my experience anyway.

    I think its easier just to use one of the bactrian, epirote, merc or seleucid elephants model as the base unit for the macedonion/ptolemaic successor elephant unit. Just change the color and add to the ownership line. And whatever else needs to be done.
    I do make it sound easy don't I?

    I was perusing the files, and I can't find anywhere to recruit merc elephant units.
    Are they still in the game?

  11. #11

    Default Re: Epirote Elephants and other elephant suggestions

    You could even argue for a Carthaginian Indian elephant unit.

    Most of you probably haven't heard of Surus. I have also seen the name spelt Sarus.
    Its the name of Hannibal's last elephant in Italy that crossed the Alps.
    Surus is Phoenician for "the Syrian".
    Carthage was originally started by colonists from Tyre if I am not mistaken.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surus

    http://everything2.com/title/Surus

    Trade between Carthatge and Egypt was quite good. Egypt got silver and horses from Carthage.
    Carthage controlled the silver mines in spain. And Carthage apparently provided horses to Egypt too.
    And during the first punic war, Carthage had no problems asking Egypt for a loan of 2,000 talents.
    So relations would seem to have been quite good.

    In any event, it would seem that Carthage had asked, and gotten at least one Indian elephant.
    Maybe more. Though the bulk of the elephants that Hannibal took to Italy were clearly Africans.
    Clearly Hannibal could not have gotten any Asian/Indian elephants without the co-operation of Egypt.
    Scullard states that Hannibal may well have gotten his Indian/s from those captured by the Ptolemies at Raphia. Doubtless the Ptolemies didn't want to give any up, but if Carthage was supplying them with Silver and horses, it was probably prudent to do so.
    For sure, relations with Carthage must have been important enough for them to cough up at least one Indian elephant.

    Of course, Surus didn't get to Carthage till about 60 years after the game starts.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Epirote Elephants and other elephant suggestions

    I agree with Wien. You should probably make the elephants with missile troops in the towers.
    Preferably archers.


    On another point, do you remember when we all laughed and made derogatory comments about flaming pigs vs elephants?
    What on earth where CA thinking when they put this in the game?

    Well, it seems they were thinking thats the ancients thought and did.
    Apparently the Romans did this to Pyrrhus in one battle. Its not clear which one though.
    And Antigonus Gonatas suffered a similar fate.

    Aelian (1, 38) states the following ; "the elephant has a terror of a horned ram and of the squealing of a pig. It was by these means, they say, that the Romans turned to flight the elephants of Pyrrhus of Epirus and won a glorious victory."

    I have no idea how they figured a horned ram would scare an elephant.

    Polyaenus (IV, 6.3) states that the Megarians (city of Megara) successfully drove off the elephants of Antigonus Gonatas when the later besieged their city by launching squealing pigs.
    The squealing being gauranteed because the pigs had been doused in fat and set on fire.

    " the elephants broke ranks and were no longer tractable in spite of having been trained since they were small, either because elephants by some instinct hate and loathe pigs, or because they dread the shrill and discordant sound of their voices. In consequence those who train young elephants, being aware of this, keep pigs along with them, so it is said, in order that through herding together the elephants may get to fear them less."

    - Aelian

    I'd not heard of Aelian. I quoted him from Scullard.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claudius_Aelianus

    Also, Hannibal set fire to torches fixed upon the horns of oxen as a ruse.
    So setting fire to animals is not as implausible as it might sound.

    http://www.mainlesson.com/display.ph...story=defeated

    I'd never heard of this before. But if setting oxen on fire is okay for Hannibal, then setting fire to pigs sounds quite reasonable.

  13. #13
    Wien1938's Avatar Miles
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    Default Re: Epirote Elephants and other elephant suggestions

    On balance, I'd have the troops in the towers as missile men. I'd make another point as well: elephants were probably not armoured until the time of Antiochos III, by which time they'd acquired large infantry escorts as well.

  14. #14
    Antonov's Avatar Civis
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    Default Re: Epirote Elephants and other elephant suggestions

    The Epirotes already have their type of elephant which seems to be correct: it has a tower with archers and is Indian (small ears, large body). I'll just clone the Epirote elephant twice and write the appropriate descriptions, then give the new units as starting units for the Ptolemies and Macedons. The elephants which they will later recruit will be a different unit (so that we have a different description), but will look the same and have the same stats. Is that ok?

  15. #15

    Default Re: Epirote Elephants and other elephant suggestions

    So I get this right, you are going to give the Macedonians and Ptolemies starting elephants based on the Epirote ones?

    If the Macedonians and Epirotes fight, how would you tell them apart?
    (As the Seleucids, while fighting the Macedonians, I once got discombobulated as to whose troops were mine and whose were the enemy. It was an older mod, but I basically thought my troops were the enemy and vice versa. It was a bit of an eye opener when I manouvered my cavalry around what I thought was my enemies's flank and found out it was my own units. Fortunately for me the game doesn't let you attack your own units otherwise it would have been quite awkward to say the least).

    I do think that this is a good idea from an upkeep standpoint. Epirus would be in a lot of trouble in the early game if they had to pay upkeep on their starting elephant unit.
    Don't know about Macedon or the Ptolemies though.

    Then if the Successor states do grab a province with an Indian elephant resource, they will be able to recruit a different Indian elephant unit and pay upkeep for these?

    If I have all this right, I think this makes some sense. Certainly if you don't want to burden the faction in questions with high upkeep costs for the elephants.

    As far as the recruitable Indian elephants go, I really like the Seleucid unarmoured Indian elephant and the Bactrian elephant. To me they look just the same apart from the color.
    I think those would look cool for the Successor states.
    But its your call.

    I can't wait to see what this all looks like!

  16. #16
    Antonov's Avatar Civis
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    Default Re: Epirote Elephants and other elephant suggestions

    Well, they are using the same elephant 3d model as it is right now -- the Epirote and the Indian elephant. The colors on the cloth with which the elephant is covered and the colors of the drawings on the tower should be enough to tell which is which. I think I'll just copy the units and give them different descriptions for the two factions (Macedons, Ptolemies)

    I do think that this is a good idea from an upkeep standpoint. Epirus would be in a lot of trouble in the early game if they had to pay upkeep on their starting elephant unit.
    Don't know about Macedon or the Ptolemies though.
    About the upkeep -- the Epirote elephant unit which is given at game start, has no cost for upkeep but it can't be recruited from anywhere. You just start with these units when playing Epirus and that's the only occasion where you can use this particular unit. As Epirus you can later recruit elephants if you hold the needed province, but it will be a different unit that you'll be recruiting from the game's perspective.

    Then if the Successor states do grab a province with an Indian elephant resource, they will be able to recruit a different Indian elephant unit and pay upkeep for these?
    Yes, the idea is that they will have starting elephants (Indian-looking) but later when they recruit, they'll be recruiting a different unit with a different description but the same outlook and stats.

    As far as the recruitable Indian elephants go, I really like the Seleucid unarmoured Indian elephant and the Bactrian elephant. To me they look just the same apart from the color.
    I think those would look cool for the Successor states.
    But its your call.
    As you can see from my little list up there, the "Indian elephant" (the second unit in the India (rebels) section) is practically the Seleucid unarmoured elephant and it uses the same 3d model and the same "mount" as the Bactrian. I tried out the models in a custom battle and they indeed look like Indian elephants -- bigger bodies and with smaller ears. So these are the models I'll be using, just with another copy of the unit to give it a different description text.

    The best way I found to discern them was their description entry tags
    Last edited by Antonov; August 07, 2009 at 10:39 AM.

  17. #17

    Default Re: Epirote Elephants and other elephant suggestions

    The elephant you are referring to is actually the standard Seleucid elephant.
    Thats cool. Thats a great choice for the Successor Indian elephant.
    Its either that or the Bactrian one.

    I just can't stand the Merc elephants you find in India. They have paint all over the elephants. The one where the tower has dudes that chuck javelins at you.
    So please don't use them.

    Speaking of which, I can't find the western Merc elephants anywhere in the game.
    The ones you used to be able to recruit in Epirus.
    Were they taken out of the game?

  18. #18
    Antonov's Avatar Civis
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    Default Re: Epirote Elephants and other elephant suggestions

    This must be the "Custom Indian Elephant" or the "Slave Indian Elephant" you are referring to, the one that uses the javelineer_small_elephant model. I can't confirm because I've never been able to recruit from these areas in my games and I don't have an utility to view the models separately.

    I didn't even know it was possible to recruit elephants from Epirus. Which province was this? Appolonia? Doesn't sound very realistic to be able to recruit them from there unless it was in some cosmic price to reflect buying them from another faction (like the Ptolemies).

  19. #19

    Default Re: Epirote Elephants and other elephant suggestions

    It must have been in PE. It was in PE.
    You could recruit the Merc elephants from Epirus.

    Epirus were not even a faction.

  20. #20
    Wien1938's Avatar Miles
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    Default Re: Epirote Elephants and other elephant suggestions

    Elephants should only be recruitable with an Elephant resource, this representing an established end of the trading route for elephants or successful breeding programmes.

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