Attack on Gay Club in Tel Aviv

[Trey]

Gunman kills 3, injures 11 at gay club in Tel Aviv
JERUSALEM — Israeli police say a gunman entered a youth club for gay teens in central Tel Aviv on Saturday night and sprayed the interior with automatic rifle fire, killing three people and injuring 11.

Police spokesman Micky Rosenfeld said it was "most likely a criminal attack and not a terror attack." Tel Aviv has been a target for Palestinian militants in the past.

He said the gunman burst into the basement of the Tel Aviv Gay and Lesbian Association and opened fire on a support group for gay teenagers.

Police are searching the area for the gunman, who fled the scene, he said. Roadblocks were set up.

Rescue services said six of the wounded were badly hurt.

"This was a hate crime, a premeditated attack," witness Yaniv Weisman told Channel 10 TV. He said Cafe Noir, the basement club, was popular with youth.

"Those hurt were very young," he said.

Openly gay Knesset lawmaker Nitzan Horowitz said it was "without a doubt the biggest ever attack on the Israeli gay community, we are all in shock."

Witnesses told Israeli media that the gunman was dressed all in black, and described the scene as a "bloodbath."

http://www.comcast.net/articles/news...Aviv.Shooting/

How wonderful. A gunman murdered gay teens at a support group. I posted this in the Academy as I find it more appropriate than the political mud pit for the discussion on the treatment of gays.

Now we don't know if the shooter was a Jew or Arab, but the fact remains that it is a tragedy that such a thing would occur, even more so in the most gay friendly nation in the Middle East.
What does it take for gays to be accepted as a part of society? Why is there outright hostility towards them? I am merely asking these as a hypothetical.

This ties in with a guy who I know who recently OD'd. Many of his demons came from him being gay, and his family believing that they could somehow make him 'straight'.

[black-dragon]

Dressed all in black? Sounds like the gay columbine or something.

[ShADoW]

Theres a gay club in Tel Aviv lol?

[Pallantides]

Theres a gay club in Tel Aviv lol?

From what I have read Israel is very liberal when it come to gay rights.

[Giorgos]

Theres a gay club in Tel Aviv lol?

This without the lol. Didn't know they had those...

[Henry of Grosmont]

Identity of gunman unknown = Criminal attack.
Gunman is an Arab/Muslim = Terrorist attack inspired by Quran.


Alright, who wants to put their money in? This will end up to be a Muslim, and the assessment of the media and Israeli police will miraculously change from ''criminal'' to ''terrorist''.

It is suspected (albeit just suspected) that the gunman was an ultra-orthodox Jew. So, you can call it a self-hating terrorist attack, if you wish. How did this thread, of all, become another anti-Muslim/terrorism debate. If it will be proven that it was indeed a terrorist attack by the Palestinians (which is as likely as me becoming an Israeli PM), then you can do whatever you want.
In any case, it's hard to believe in any other scenario, unless it's an extraordinary case.

Kb, you should know better.

[Mega Tortas de Bodemloze]

Now we don't know if the shooter was a Jew or Arab, but the fact remains that it is a tragedy that such a thing would occur, even more so in the most gay friendly nation in the Middle East.
What does it take for gays to be accepted as a part of society? Why is there outright hostility towards them? I am merely asking these as a hypothetical.

This ties in with a guy who I know who recently OD'd. Many of his demons came from him being gay, and his family believing that they could somehow make him 'straight'.

1. Hate is a human condition. It does not subscribe to groups, associations, nor is it confined by political boundaries.

2. Gays openly accepted in society???? No... Worldwide population breakdown {Gay 10%,Bi 3%-4%, Straight bout 86%}, Sorry..not gonna happen.

3. Unfortunately vasts amounts of adolescents worldwide commit suicide because they are different and cannot conceive ever coping or being accepted.

[Henry of Grosmont]

2. Gays openly accepted in society???? No... Worldwide population breakdown {Gay 10%,Bi 3%-4%, Straight bout 86%}, Sorry..not gonna happen.

Err. Here, gay are open about themselves (many of them, at least) and are accepted in society. My mentor is gay and everybody holds him in high esteem, for example.
But of course, we do have our share of homophobes, as expected.

I do know better... but this forum doesn't give much room for better, anymore.

I will reserve my right to use it in our another Israel/Palestine argument

[Pallantides]

2. Gays openly accepted in society???? No... Worldwide population breakdown {Gay 10%,Bi 3%-4%, Straight bout 86%}, Sorry..not gonna happen.

Huh... gays are fully accepted in most of the Western European society, the major in Oslo the capital of Norway is a homosexual.

[Primvs Sextvs Loverlord]

So why is this a criminal attack and not a terror attack? LOL /sarcasm

If this happened in nearby Amman, the kiddies here would be screaming 'barbaric Muslims' at the top of their voice. This time though, I'll play the game:


According to the Old Testament, God showered down upon communities that tolerated homosexuality with fire and fiery rocks from the sky. Every man, woman and child was killed - their only crime, toleration and moderation. It's this sort of backward and barbaric ideology that we saw in action here. These people are bred to be fanatically intolerant of homosexuals. I'm gonna refer this to my knight in shining armor, the protector of the white race and the Yahweh of all Yahewhs, Geert Wilder (peace be upon him a thousand times). The OT must either be censored or banned altogether!

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

To be honest, doing this doesn't feel good at all. Now I know how miserable the Islamophobes are who post this sort of BS day in and day out, over and over again. I kinda feel sorry for them.

[Trey]

So why is this a criminal attack and not a terror attack? LOL /sarcasm

I agree with you here.

If this happened in nearby Amman, the kiddies here would be screaming 'barbaric Muslims' at the top of their voice. This time though, I'll play the game:

And why would this never happen in Amman? It's a simple reason really.

[Gauvin]

To be honest, doing this doesn't feel good at all. Now I know how miserable the Islamophobes are who post this sort of BS day in and day out, over and over again. I kinda feel sorry for them.

The dif is the Jewish state criminalizes the murder of gays, whereas Muslim states criminalize and murder gays.

[Pallantides]

The dif is the Jewish state criminalizes the murder of gays, whereas Muslim states criminalize and murder gays.

You won't see this in Israel.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

I don't care if they call it a 'criminal attack' or a 'terrorist' attack, as long as the perpetrator is brought to justice and is punished for his crime.

[Wilder]

The dif is the Jewish state criminalizes the murder of gays, whereas Muslim states criminalize and murders gays.

Gah...

This is a pretty good example of the sort of vacuous thinking I am always talking about, if Islam bans homosexuality, it is about the same in terms of severity as Christianity and Judaism. Often, in attempts to prove the nastiness of Islam folks rely on Islamic scripture. Fine, I say, but this is one case where you won't win, Judaism is every bit as homophobic as Islam, at least in terms of the scripture. So why are Muslim countries more homophobic than western countries? It can't be religion, because, they are pretty on par in this case. So why is it? Could it actually be for reasons that are perhaps, related more to development, or economic and political dysfunction? or rather than presence of Islam, the absence of a tradition of acceptance and tolerance? No, never...

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

the key for the map is here


As you can see much of the Muslim world is about on par with the "non-western" world in terms of homosexuality.

this map, errs though, according to this page, Turkey recognizes same sex unions.

[Trey]

Gah...

This is a pretty good example of the sort of vacuous thinking I am always talking about, if Islam bans homosexuality, in about the same in terms of severity as Christianity and Judaism. Often, in attempts to prove the nastiness of Islam folks rely on Islamic scripture. Fine, I say, but this is one case where you won't win, Judaism is every bit as homophobic as Islam, at least in terms of the scripture. So why are Muslim countries more homophobic than western countries? It can't be religion, because, they are pretty on par in this case. So why is it? Could it actually be for reasons that are perhaps, related more to development, or economic and political dysfunction? or rather than presence of Islam, the absence of a tradition of acceptance and tolerance? No, never...

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

No information
Homosexuality legal Same-sex marriage1 Other type of partnership (or unregistered cohabitation)2 Foreign same-sex marriages recognized No recognition of same-sex couples3
Homosexuality illegal Minimal penalty Large penalty Life in prison Death penalty



As you can see much of the Muslim world is about on par with the "non-western" world in terms of homosexuality.

this map, errs though, according to this page, Turkey recognizes same sex unions.

Like hell it can't. Religion has often played an active role in the persecution of homosexuals.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:UN...eport_2008.png


Wait, so South America is hanging gays? Are they constantly harassed out in the streets!?!?!\ The Middle East and South America/Caribbean look pretty similar to me. While it may be looked down upon to be gay in South American countries, good luck if you're openly gay in the Middle East.

Things are never so simplistic. Much of the Middle East is extremely socially conservative, or backwards depending on who you ask.

[Wilder]

Like hell it can't. Religion has often played an active role in the persecution of homosexuals.

I think you are misunderstanding me. Religion is, of course, been a long time enemy to gay folks. My point was that if you contrast the take on gays in Islam, Christianity, and Judaism, you will find a basically dead heat in the hate department. So any differences in the policies between predominately Christan, Jewish and Muslim countries, can not be chalked up to religion. Now is the existence of homophobia in these countries in the first place because of religion? One could make the argument...

Wait, so South America is hanging gays? Are they constantly harassed out in the streets!?!?!\ The Middle East and South America/Caribbean look pretty similar to me. While it may be looked down upon to be gay in South American countries, good luck if you're openly gay in the Middle East.

Not what I was arguing, but yeah, you are right, homophobia does not correlate directly to the human development index. Look, I agree that the problems of the Mideast can not be pined on poverty, but rather, political dysfunction, and the absence of a tradition of tolerance and secularism. (if you will allow me to be retarded simplistic.)

[Claudius Gothicus]

Wait, so South America is hanging gays? Are they constantly harassed out in the streets!?!?!\ The Middle East and South America/Caribbean look pretty similar to me. While it may be looked down upon to be gay in South American countries, good luck if you're openly gay in the Middle East.

Well I can't speak for all of South America, but in Argentina at least the gay communities are making many advances, and I mean a lot... If I remember correctly Burns Aires is quite high in the Gay Friendly Ranking, well I could be wrong but still we do not hang/beat up gays in the streets.

Regarding the article really bad news, gunning down a bar gay or straight is terrible, if the crime was hate inspired much more so...

[Gauvin]

Gah...

This is a pretty good example of the sort of vacuous thinking I am always talking about, if Islam bans homosexuality, it is about the same in terms of severity as Christianity and Judaism.

Trying to find where I said otherwise.... I was comparing countries, wasn't I, not religions. I can't be assed if Judaism says to smash children against rocks, if they don't do it, and they don't make it a law, then I can't fault them for doing it, if Judaism says kill homosexuals, and they allow gay clubs, and openly gay politicians in parliament, then why should I criticize their state because their religion says one thing.

The fact is, Muslim countries actively employ religious laws to persecute and kill homosexuals.

You called my thinking vacuous, and yet completely didn't comprehend what I said.

[Wilder]

Trying to find where I said otherwise.... I was comparing countries, wasn't I, not religions.

AHH! THE MAD LITERALIST STRIKES AGAIN. Sorry, my bad. You just got to understand, that the confusion between Muslim countries and Islam seems fairly pandemic these days, sorry if I jumped to conclusions.

The fact is, Muslim countries actively employ religious laws to persecute and kill homosexuals.

Yeah, some, (slim majority) of Muslim countries do. But what is the significance of that in a dissection about an attack on a gay bar that does not involve Muslims?

You called my thinking vacuous, and yet completely didn't comprehend what I said.

I meant vacuous in the sense as "in a vacuum", not stupid. Didn't mean to insult.

That said, I think I understood your comment pretty well within the context that it presented (even if that was not how you intended). You responded to a comment explaining how Judaism was homophobic, so I hope you can understand if I thought you were dealing with religion.

[Wilder]

Police spokesman Micky Rosenfeld said it was "most likely a criminal attack and not a terror attack."

excuse me, but WTF.

So, now just because a terrorist attack not committed by a Muslim it is not longer terrorism but just "Criminal"? This is terrorism, if there ever was any.


God damn people need to get there god damn terminology straight.


Ah , ya beat me to it.