Did Persia have a significant influence on Turkish Culture?

[★Bandiera Rossa☭]

This is the spin off of this thread - http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=281910
Do you think that Persia had a significant influence on Turkish culture? Feel free to discuss.

[Babur]

thanks man

yuh I think it did, but along with the (Arab) Muslim Caliphate who did hire Turkish slaves to serve in their armies, plus converting them to Islam.The Persian influence was definitely stronger in Central Asia and the Eastern Islamic World in general.

[Crimson Scythe]

It depends on whether you mean the culture of modern Turkey or Turkic culture in general. Modern Turkish culture has a fairly balanced mix of Persian and Arabic influences. The Persian is probably a result of the Seljuk origins of the Ottomans, since the Seljuks were based largely in Persian-dominated regions. The Arabic influence, aside from the religious aspect, can probably be traced to the 16th century, when the Ottomans began pushing into Arab-populated regions of the Middle East. Prior to the 16th century, you see a much heavier Persian and Greek/Byzantine/Roman influence in Ottoman culture. Basically, as the Ottomans expanded, they made more and more cultures part of their own.

At least, until the late 1920s, when non-Turkic influences were actively purged from 'common' culture to forge a new Republican identity. Persian influences are more predominant in the arts and in legal circles in modern Turkish culture, and are also stronger among older generations. It also varies from region to region.

[neoptolemos]

A balanced opinion i must say CS

[Crimson Scythe]

A balanced opinion i must say CS

Thanks, I try.

[Dr. Oza]

chingiz, im replying to ur post on the other thread

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the Achaemenids liked to use lions in their symbolism though:

so did everyone else in history... lol, the english... the germans.. the venetians...

doesnt mean they were influenced by the persians does it

ol in Central Asia, there were Iranian tribes,in the Iranian plateau they happend to use lions in their symbolism.This has nothing to do with North Africa.I think the Central Asians of today are descendants of mixing between Iranian and Turkic peoples.It is no surprise that in Central Asia, Nowruz is still celebrated.

many turks in turkey celebrate nowruz, but thats not a purely persian holiday, its celebrating spring, most central asians celebrate it, you can call it whatever you want

they still became Persianised nonetheless, they adopted Shiah Islam for a reason you know, to oppose the Ottomans and Uzbeks.

Mahmud Ghaznavi was a Turk yet he was very Persian in culture.The same applied to the Seljuks who initially made their capital in Isfahan.The Timurids used Persian bureaucrats and built grand monuments with the help of Persian architects,they also patronised Persian literature and turned Herat into a center of Persian culture.It is just the intense nationalism of Ataturk which sought to deny this,but the influence lives on:

shia islam isnt persian, it was shah ismail that converted all of iran to shiasm, and he was turkish
moving your capital doesnt make you persian
i keep telling you... ethnic identity was not a big deal back then, as long as you were loyal, and muslim, no one cared if you were turkish, persian, afghan and so on

the resulting culture of the patronage of individuals like mahmud ghavzani or uzun hasan isnt persian culture, nor is it turkish culture, its a blend...

the persian vocabulary in turkish isnt that intense... it was more so the high ottoman spoken by the ruling class that was heavily farsi influenced...

no one is denying the persian influences, but people seem to like denying the turkish influences as well... such as the lion and sun which had been on the iranian flag until the islamic revolution

and many words from turkish are in persian as a result of turks ruling those lands since 1000s

the azeris have always dominated iranian and persian government, and culture... khomemi is even azeri (turkish)

[Babur]

chingiz, im replying to ur post on the other thread

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so did everyone else in history... lol, the english... the germans.. the venetians...

of course but I thought the Turks original symbol 1400 years ago, was the wolf?

doesnt mean they were influenced by the persians does it
many turks in turkey celebrate nowruz, but thats not a purely persian holiday, its celebrating spring, most central asians celebrate it, you can call it whatever you want

but 2000 years ago, Iranian people lived in much of Central Asia,Nowruz was originally celebrated by Iranian peoples (evidence can be seen in Takht-e-Jamshid/Persepolis in Fars too).

shia islam isnt persian, it was shah ismail that converted all of iran to shiasm, and he was turkish

he was originally Sufi, Shiah Islam is not Persian I know but it took root in Iran.Shah Ismail was a Persianised Turk nonetheless

moving your capital doesnt make you persian
i keep telling you... ethnic identity was not a big deal back then, as long as you were loyal, and muslim, no one cared if you were turkish, persian, afghan and so on

the fact that their capital was in Iran, made it the center of their empire.

the resulting culture of the patronage of individuals like mahmud ghavzani or uzun hasan isnt persian culture, nor is it turkish culture, its a blend...

well the Shahnama was a collection of Iranian legends though....

the persian vocabulary in turkish isnt that intense... it was more so the high ottoman spoken by the ruling class that was heavily farsi influenced...

because of the forced "re-Turkification" enforced by Ataturk in the last century as pointed out by Crimson.Perhaps a comparison can be drawn with attempts in India to "re-Sanskritise" Hindi to try to remove foreigns words, but in both cases I don't think there was success.

no one is denying the persian influences, but people seem to like denying the turkish influences as well... such as the lion and sun which had been on the iranian flag until the islamic revolution

yes, but the Turkic peoples of Central Asia are considerably different to those who live in Altai or Tuva today.

and many words from turkish are in persian as a result of turks ruling those lands since 1000s

and using Iranians in their government.

the azeris have always dominated iranian and persian government, and culture... khomemi is even azeri (turkish)

since the revolution perhaps

nonetheless the Persian influence is present, particularly in the Eastern Islamic World.Nearly all nomadic empires have absorbed the culture of their subjects in history.

Chaghatai Turkic,which Babur used for his Baburnama was influenced by Farsi too:

Iranian linguistic influence on Chaghatay. As the cultural centers of the Turks shifted from the northeast to the southwest, Iranian influences increased propor*tionately. Inscriptions from the 2nd/8th century, when the center of the Old Turkish empire lay in Mongolia, contain only a few Iranian loanwords, particularly titles (Aalto; Rossi). With the blossoming of Uighur culture in Khocho in the 3rd/9th century an increasing number of Sogdian and early Persian words found their way into the Uighur dialect of Old Turkish (see chinese turkestan x). When Qarakhanid literature began to develop in southwestern Xinjiang (Kāšḡar and Balāsaḡūn, q.v.) in the 5th/11th century and at the same time Islam spread through the area, Persian words, including borrowings from Arabic, became more common. In the 8th/14th century Ḵᵛārazm, where the Persian influence was much stronger, became a cultural center. Under the Timurids Herat (capital of Šāhroḵ, r. 807-50/1405-47), Samarkand (capital of Oloḡ Beg, r. 850-53/1447-49), and Shiraz (seat of the prince Eskandar Mīrzā, d. 827/1423-24) were the main literary centers in the first half of the 9th/15th century, and Herat remained so through the reign of Sultan Ḥosayn Bāyqarā (q.v.; 875-*912/1470-1506). After the Timurids were succeeded in Transoxania by the Shaibanids in 906/1500 (see central asia v, vi), Bukhara (q.v.), Samarkand, Ḵᵛā*razm, Balḵ (q.v.; Šaybānīḵān), and Farḡāna became the Chaghatay cultural centers. The Timurid Bābor founded the Mughal dynasty in 932/1526, after which Afghanistan and India also played an important role. With the formation of the Central Asian khanates in the 11th/17th century Chaghatay continued to be written only in Ḵīva and Ḵokand; in Bukhara the written language was generally Persian (cf. Eckmann, 1959b; idem, 1959c).

A number of Persian grammatical features were adopted in Chaghatay, for example, postpositions (e.g., tā “until,” ṭaraf “towards”), conjunctions (e.g., ägär “if,” ki general subordinating conjunction), eżāfa (jism i nātuvānïm “my weak body”), yā-ye ešārat (oq-ī ki yadïn čïqtï “the arrow which flew from the bow”), and yā-ye waḥdat (köprüg-ī gä yätär “he comes to a bridge”; see Brockelmann, pp. 159-60, 186-87, 196-97, 393-427; Kales, pp. 13-15; central asia xv). Beginning in the 9th/15th century a large number of Persian loanwords also came into use (see Table 35).

Even when Chaghatay authors deliberately set out to write in Turkish they were not able to avoid using Persian words. For example, when the vizier and poet ʿAlī- Šīr Navāʾī (844-906/1441-1501)

[awalanche]

It is true that Persian culture had influenced Turkish culture significantly after Turkic tribes began to immigrate to western teritories. As you already know Great Seljuk Empire covered most of Iran and I believe had influenced by Persian architecture and administration structure. We can see the reflection of this in Anatolia bu observing Rum Sultanate of Seljuks. Many historians in Turkey agree that Romans, Rum Sultanate and Turkish Republic did most contributions to development of Anatolia. If you look at pieces of architecture in Anatolia during Rum Sultanate reign you can easily observe dominating Persian influence. However I believe this effect had declined during Ottoman period due to fact that Ottomans had also influenced from Byzantine culture.

To tell the truth I can not distinguish whether some cultural practices in modern culture is influenced by Persian or Arabic culture. You guys are talking about nevruz celebration and some of my friends told me that it is a part of Turkic culture. Since after the foundation of republic there were works on restoring Turkic culture and creating a modern culture mainly based on Turkic culture, it is not easy to distinguish cultural effects.

[Babur]

It is true that Persian culture had influenced Turkish culture significantly after Turkic tribes began to immigrate to western teritories. As you already know Great Seljuk Empire covered most of Iran and I believe had influenced by Persian architecture and administration structure. We can see the reflection of this in Anatolia bu observing Rum Sultanate of Seljuks. Many historians in Turkey agree that Romans, Rum Sultanate and Turkish Republic did most contributions to development of Anatolia. If you look at pieces of architecture in Anatolia during Rum Sultanate reign you can easily observe dominating Persian influence. However I believe this effect had declined during Ottoman period due to fact that Ottomans had also influenced from Byzantine culture.

well yeah the Seljuks of Anatolia were obviously geographically closer to Cilicia (where there were Armenians) and the Romans.

I still find it interesting that in Ibn Batuta's day,he found that some Turks knew Farsi better than Arabic.Perhaps the most famous Iranian to come to Turkey was Rumi and left a lasting influence with his Sufi teachings.

To tell the truth I can not distinguish whether some cultural practices in modern culture is influenced by Persian or Arabic culture. You guys are talking about nevruz celebration and some of my friends told me that it is a part of Turkic culture. Since after the foundation of republic there were works on restoring Turkic culture and creating a modern culture mainly based on Turkic culture, it is not easy to distinguish cultural effects.

It has probably been a part of Turkic culture because of the long term contacts between Iranian and Turkic peoples over the past 1000 years or so.

I think it is important to also focus on the Arabic influence on Turkish culture which is also very apparent, naturally because of their conversion to Islam in the past.I am sure there are a lot of Arabic words too.

[Big Pacha]

VERY interesting thread. BTW I was "brought" here by a deceitful Khan

I agree w/ Chinggis Khan & Crimson Scythe and I'll add these few elements:

Turkish culture (means all turcophones from Uighurs to Bosnians) is completely mixed with the Persian Civilization since the central asian Oghuz tribes led by Seljuk warlords seized Persia even before the Crusades. Turkish tribes dominated the ME militarily but were absorbed by Persian fine arts, poetry, philosophy, etc. Exactly like the Romans who conquered an older & more refined Hellenic world.

In the centuries, It took two forms: the Ottoman Civilization in the West, and the Ghaznavids & after the "Indian" Mughals far later: Dominated by a Turkish military elite completely acquired to Persian refinement (& princesses!), even adopting Farsi as their language.

Also remember that before the Pahlavi, the "Turkish" Kajars were the ruling Shahs of Persian/Iran until 1925! Last example of Turco-Persian "fusion".

Note that there is a "pure" original Turkish culture but It's a pre-Islamic steppes culture, very close to their Mongol cousins - praising Tengri & Horse Spirits etc. (see Görturks, Baïkalic Turks tec.)

[Babur]

VERY interesting thread. BTW I was "brought" here by a deceitful Khan

lawl

I agree w/ Chinggis Khan & Crimson Scythe and I'll add these few elements:

Turkish culture (means all turcophones from Uighurs to Bosnians) is completely mixed with the Persian Civilization since the central asian Oghuz tribes led by Seljuk warlords seized Persia even before the Crusades. Turkish tribes dominated the ME militarily but were absorbed by Persian fine arts, poetry, philosophy, etc. Exactly like the Romans who conquered an older & more refined Hellenic world.

well they did follow on from Ghaznavids in this respect,the Seljuks of Rum also took many Greek wives (can't blame them tbh )

In the centuries, It took two forms: the Ottoman Civilization in the West, and the Ghaznavids & after the "Indian" Mughals far later: Dominated by a Turkish military elite completely acquired to Persian refinement (& princesses!), even adopting Farsi as their language.

well the Delhi Sultanate was established by Turks but it too became very Persianised,just look at Amir Khusro Dihlawi.Farsi was arguably a lingua franca from Anatolia all the way to the Indian subcontinent during late medieval and early modern times.One cannot help but admire the resilience of Persian culture.

Also remember that before the Pahlavi, the "Turkish" Kajars were the ruling Shahs of Persian/Iran until 1925! Last example of Turco-Persian "fusion".

Afsharids were also a brief example.

Note that there is a "pure" original Turkish culture but It's a pre-Islamic steppes culture, very close to their Mongol cousins - praising Tengri & Horse Sirits etc. (see Görturks, Baïkalic Turks tec.)

this is why I stated that the the Turks of Central Asia and Anatolia are different from their cousins in Tuva and Altai in this respect,who are actually closer culturally to the Shamanistic and Buddhist Mongols.My dad went to Altai a few weeks ago,so I got first hand accounts (he has been to Turkey,Kazakhstan and Uzbekistan too)

[Babur]

well here is a pie chart which shows the proportion of foreign words in Turkish today:

[PointOfViewGun]

well here is a pie chart which shows the proportion of foreign words in Turkish today:

Interesting finding.

[Babur]

Interesting finding.

how did so many French words enter Turkish

[PointOfViewGun]

how did so many French words enter Turkish

French literature has a large influence on Turkish literature. At the beginning of the 19th century it was mostly translations from French novel writers that were dominant. Slowly Turkish novel writers take their places. It's not really that surprising as there are roughly 5 or more French high schools in Istanbul.

[Babur]

French literature has a large influence on Turkish literature. At the beginning of the 19th century it was mostly translations from French novel writers that were dominant. Slowly Turkish novel writers take their places. It's not really that surprising as there are roughly 5 or more French high schools in Istanbul.

Isn't it also a legacy of the Tanzimat reforms?

[Big Pacha]

how did so many French words enter Turkish

That, I can answer:
- France & Ottomans were always close even at the beginning (XVIth c.) despite religion. They both hated the Austro-Spanish Hapsburg Empire.

- French & Ottoman thinkers (intellectuals, philosophers) had a great correspondance + In the XVIIIth c. and XIXth c. It was very fashionable for a western intellectual to study oriental arts in Istambul, a "romantic" destination for wealthy westerners.

- Modern Turkish absorbs many other languages including european ones. There are a lot of anglicisms too.
Another ex: Telefon. (telephone)
But then, 60% of modern English vocabulary comes from France (medieval french-speaking eng. elite). Fun Fact too.

Those are "western" words (all languages) directly & phonetically adopted by the adaptative Turkish culture & uses. It's not especially the greeks Jo, but all westerners.

[Trey]

well here is a pie chart which shows the proportion of foreign words in Turkish today:

The Turkish Pac Man is stronger than the other Pac Mans!
Ataturk had a hand in this no doubt.

[Babur]

The Turkish Pac Man is stronger than the other Pac Mans!
Ataturk had a hand in this no doubt.

lawl

yeah of course he did, Ottoman Turkish had more Persian and Arabic words.

[PointOfViewGun]

lawl

yeah of course he did, Ottoman Turkish had more Persian and Arabic words.

That wasn't called Turkish though. The languages that were used by the government, the palace and the public differed. What the government used was Ottoman Turkish which as you said had a lot more Arabic and Persian in it. But, the Turkish the public was using was more pure.