the golden horde

**Lemming69** · July 31, 2009, 08:30 AM

correct me if i'm wrong, but didnt genghis khan destroy kwarezm- after his death the mongol empire was split between his sons- the golden horde being one of them- so surely in stainless steel the golden horde should not exist because kwarezm still remains?

**Point Blank** · July 31, 2009, 08:59 AM

Kwarezm exists in Late Campaign, Mongols have just begun invading.

**Ichon** · July 31, 2009, 10:56 AM

And actually Kwerezem were ruled by proto mongols... tribe which had fled west earlier when the Khan was consolidating his rule over the tribes in Mongolia and surroundings. Though they had only ruled for 30 or 40 year really so the majority of the empire was still muslim though large parts were pagan.

**django333** · July 31, 2009, 12:57 PM

Nine times out of ten Kwarezm will be the first faction to fall to the Mongols. That is certainly the case whenever I play the Mongols.

**Mega Tortas de Bodemloze** · August 01, 2009, 12:44 AM

Originally Posted by django333

Nine times out of ten Kwarezm will be the first faction to fall to the Mongols. That is certainly the case whenever I play the Mongols.

Whoops read the quote wrong..

.....When I played the Horde I got lucky early and the K-Shah's FM's were all slain in battle. Otherwise I would have been in a slugfest and tasted Bankruptcy.

**sumskilz** · August 03, 2009, 12:13 PM

Originally Posted by Ichon

And actually Kwerezem were ruled by proto mongols... tribe which had fled west earlier when the Khan was consolidating his rule over the tribes in Mongolia and surroundings. Though they had only ruled for 30 or 40 year really so the majority of the empire was still muslim though large parts were pagan.

No, the Kwarazm Shahs were descended from a Turkic emir appointed by the Seljuks. The Turkic languages are closely related to Mongolian, but the Seljuks were Muslim even before they invaded Persia.

**Ichon** · August 03, 2009, 04:20 PM

The islamizised Turks with any alliegance to the Emir lost control of most of the lands they had towards the Caspian and south of Amur Diyar river... about 1/2 of their empire if you want to call it that 20 years before Ghengis sent any armies that direction. Many muslims lived in those area but it was not muslim culture as it was further south. Mongols were actually in large part composed of many Turkic muslim tribes which changed alliegance to Ghengis as they became aware of his reputation and the fact that despite not being muslim had more similar culture in many ways. Original Mongol tribes were small part of the Mongol horde by the time Ghengis sent armies east.

When I finish unpacking I'll even source this for you if you want. I might not have the correct river but I know that Kwarezem Shah was already in decline before Mongols even came near.

**sumskilz** · August 03, 2009, 05:45 PM

Originally Posted by Ichon

The islamizised Turks with any alliegance to the Emir lost control of most of the lands they had towards the Caspian and south of Amur Diyar river... about 1/2 of their empire if you want to call it that 20 years before Ghengis sent any armies that direction. Many muslims lived in those area but it was not muslim culture as it was further south. Mongols were actually in large part composed of many Turkic muslim tribes which changed alliegance to Ghengis as they became aware of his reputation and the fact that despite not being muslim had more similar culture in many ways. Original Mongol tribes were small part of the Mongol horde by the time Ghengis sent armies east.

When I finish unpacking I'll even source this for you if you want. I might not have the correct river but I know that Kwarezem Shah was already in decline before Mongols even came near.

Well when you put it that way, we aren't really in disagreement. The Kwarazm Shahs controlled a lot more in name than in actuality. The Seljuks rode to power on the backs of a nomadic tribal coalition, but once they became entrenched in sedentary life they had trouble maintaining the allegiance of the tribes. Of course the Kwarazm Shahs inherited this problem. So, if you're saying that large portions of what the Kwarazm Shahs claimed as their realm was actually in the hands of autonomous nomads then I agree entirely. The final Kwarazm Shah was particularly week; even his own mother was plotting against him. He never formed up a concentrated army to face the Mongols because he couldn't count much on any of his vassal’s loyalty.

I think in 6.2 and the rr/rc bundle, each wave of Mongols is a different coloured horde. This is historically correct, for instance it was the "blue horde" that ravaged the kingdom of Georgia and shattered the Seljuk turks in the 1230's. It was the Golden Horde that smashed Kwarezm, and remained known as such after the death of Genghis split the empire.

I don’t know about this color thing. Kwarazm was attacked when Genghis (Chingis) was still alive. The attack on Georgia was a recon mission bu Subutai, and the Seljuks weren’t really a power by the time that Hulegu conquered Persia. The Golden Horde was probably not the name the actual Mongols used. I think that is a translation from of a Russian term. In the primary sources they are mostly referred to as the Kypchak Khanate even though the Mongols had replaced the Kypchaks as the ruling class, they had encorporated many of their former Turkic enemies. It didn’t take long before they were speaking more of a Turkic dialect than Mongolian. The family of Genghis was referred to as the “Golden Family”.

Jack Weatherford -Genghis Khan and the Making of the Modern World
David Morgan - The Mongols
David Morgan - Medieval Persia, 1040-1797
Stephen Turnbull - The Mongols

**InsaneHanz** · July 31, 2009, 01:45 PM

In my current campaign the Kwarezm and Cuman fought off the Mongols. They only have one and half stacks now and they lost the 4 settlements they had captured. I'm the Knights Templar and I built this huge border defense to fight them off. I never got to use it unfortunately.

And BTW doesn't the Golden Horde come in waves? Only one wave has come so far in over 60 years I think. I'm still not in the 1300s yet.

**Anaatti** · July 31, 2009, 03:18 PM

Im playing 6.1 and Mongols get their ass kicked by Kwarezem. How i can give them like 6 stacks more troops and be more aggressive cause they allways get ceasefire with Kwarezem (even in 6.2)

**HighLord z0b** · August 02, 2009, 10:36 PM

The original post may be referring to the fact that the Mongols are called the Golden Hoarde in SS whereas the Golden Hoarde were only a part of the Mongol empire that existed after the death of Ghengis. In which case I agree, the Mongols should just be called the Mongols.

**Deadly Rabbit** · August 03, 2009, 02:59 AM

I think in 6.2 and the rr/rc bundle, each wave of Mongols is a different coloured horde. This is historically correct, for instance it was the "blue horde" that ravaged the kingdom of Georgia and shattered the Seljuk turks in the 1230's. It was the Golden Horde that smashed Kwarezm, and remained known as such after the death of Genghis split the empire.