3.3 Map Discussion

[CaesarVincens]

I'm working on a new map based on the recent Caesar campaign. I can either release the map with the next version, which would break save game compatibility, (there would be other new features as well) or I can wait to release it.

Let me know what you think.

[LucretiusTC]

Here are some ideas for those possible map changes.

At first, I think there are two new settlements in the Roman Civil War campaign:

Phanagoria (Sindica); as a replacement for Chersonesus this new settlement helps to maintain those land contacts between Taurica (Crimea), Colchis and Pontus.
Pelusium (Aegyptus Minor); the easternmost city in Lower Egypt could be located on the coast nearly in the middle of the triangle Memphis-Hierosolyma-Petra, and it could fill some gap between those settlements.

Then I would suggest some new arrangements for the Illyrian and Pannonian regions with one new settlement. It seems to me that on the current map the locations of Salona, Acuincum and Poetovio need some corrections. Besides Illyria is one of the central battlegrounds in this game especially the Romans vs. Macedonians or Thracians, and in Pannonia the Romans usually have their first contacts to Germanic tribes. Geographically Illyria and Pannonia are usually separated from each other by the Sava River.

The whole picture could look like this:

• Aemona (location near Ljubljana, Slovenia; Illyrian town) Histria-Liburnia.
• Salona (location near Split, Crotia; Illyrian town), Dalmatia.
• Epidamnos (location the modern city of Durrës, Albania; Greek/Illyrian town), Illyria Graeca. (new settlement)
• Sirmium (Syrmion in Greek; location the modern Sremska Mitrovica, Serbia; Illyrian/Pannonian town) or alternatively Singidunum (the modern Belgrad), Pannonia Scordisca.
• Acuincum (location near modern Budapest, Hungary; Celtic/Pannonian town); Pannonia Inferior.
• Savaria (modern Szombathely is the oldest city in Hungary, near the Austrian border; it was a part of the ancient Amber Road) as a replacement for Poetovio (modern Ptuj in Slovenia), Pannonia Superior.

Secondly, here are some suggestions for renaming and relocations of three current settlements:

• Cydonia > Gortyn; Gortyn would have more central location in the island of Crete than Cydonia. It was famous for the Gortyn code and later the capital of Crete under the Roman rule.
• Hatra > Edessa; the current location of Hatra in Assyria would be more suitable for Edessa. Seleucus I Nicator, when he refounded the town as a military colony in 303 BC, mixing Greeks with its eastern population, called it Edessa, in memory of Edessa the ancient capital of Macedon.
• Apamea > Rhagae; this city would be little westwards from Apamea, and then the distance from Ecbatana would be a slightly shorter. Rhagae was a religious centre in ancient Media, suburb of modern Tehrân. It is situated on a very ancient road.

Thirdly, we could try to combine the Tribus Tissagetae and Tribus Iirkae as a one region. Maybe a new location for Vicus Tissagetae would be northeast from Campus Roxolani, northwest from Campus Aorsi and somewhere between Volga and Ural Rivers? At the same time, those regional borders should be fixed so that the southern border of Gentes Fennica would be further south and the region for Tribus Roxolani should be extended eastwards. Otherwise, there seem to be very little information about Tribus Iirkae. This arrangement would bring a free slot for a new settlement that could be used in Illyria or somewhere else.

Finally, when I played recently the Germanic campaign I noticed that there is relatively large region in central Europe that might need a new settlement. I mean that triangle between Rugium (Locus Rugi), Carrodorum (Logus Lugi), and Vicus Venedae (Locus Venedae). In the Europa Barbarorum campaign map there is a settlement called Ascaucalis (near modern Inowroclaw in Poland) that would be good for this purpose. This would affect especially for Germanic, Scythian and Thracian campaigns. http://www.europabarbarorum.com/features_map.html

Luc.

[CaesarVincens]

I'll take this into consideration. Currently, I've cut Tribus Sakae for Phanagoria and made Wusun uncapturable, so it could be cut as well.

[Suppanut]

I propose to combine Libya Deserta and Arabia Deserta into the one Deserta to save region slot for region we want to add, maybe Pelusium in Egypt or Ictis in west England+Wales(with port at Anglesey).

I think Whole steppe area need to redistribute the regions which I think it would save a region's slot or two.

I personally don't like idea of made Wusun uncapturable as I have some idea about give very large and strong rebel stack here and it will be play huge role in Tocharian invasion script in PMP too.

[LucretiusTC]

Here are some further ideas for the campaign map.

In the case of the Sabaean campaign, the region of Azania (settlement Opone) in eastern Africa could have a bigger role in the game if it was next to Axum as the land of Punt, and those two settlements would be connected to each other with a road. That new settlement called Avalites could be located roughly at the place of the current port of Axum, and maybe the region of Punt would control most of the coastal areas in Aethiopia. The possible new port of Axum could be located northeast from the settlement e.g. at the place of Adulis. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9c/PeriplusMap.jpg

Luc.

[CaesarVincens]

I propose to combine Libya Deserta and Arabia Deserta into the one Deserta to save region slot for region we want to add, maybe Pelusium in Egypt or Ictis in west England+Wales(with port at Anglesey).

I think Whole steppe area need to redistribute the regions which I think it would save a region's slot or two.

I personally don't like idea of made Wusun uncapturable as I have some idea about give very large and strong rebel stack here and it will be play huge role in Tocharian invasion script in PMP too.

I'll see what I can do. I don't think there are any unused provinces unfortunately, but I'll probably cut a few steppe provinces. Don't forget that there is still the province below Wusun.

Here are some further ideas for the campaign map.

In the case of the Sabaean campaign, the region of Azania (settlement Opone) in eastern Africa could have a bigger role in the game if it was next to Axum as the land of Punt, and those two settlements would be connected to each other with a road. That new settlement called Avalites could be located roughly at the place of the current port of Axum, and maybe the region of Punt would control most of the coastal areas in Aethiopia. The possible new port of Axum could be located northeast from the settlement e.g. at the place of Adulis. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9c/PeriplusMap.jpg

Luc.

That might help Saba be more active. I think I'll get a beta of the new map out for people to try out and test pretty soon.

[Suppanut]

By merge two great uncapturable desert provinces into one would save a slot without problem as we don't want to made ai walk pass it at all.

[CaesarVincens]

But I've already done that. I'll figure something out. There may be one region left to use.

[Suppanut]

Caesar, Would you mind to upload new modified map_reagions.tga for us to see and discuss in detail?

I also would like you to redraw map of steppe regions by...
- kept all regions with specific name(not Tribus... or Locus...) or specific settlement name(not Vicus... or Campus...)
- kept important strategic regions
- for missing settlement use settlement with name from EB map from LucretiusTC or RTS map link to replace all Vicus and Campus settlement

[CaesarVincens]

I'll do better than that by tomorrow I should have a beta with the new map you can look at yourself. It's a beta so it can be changed.

[Suppanut]

Here is the list of settlements/regions name that should replaced
From EB map
Vicus Fennicae ---> Asodat
Vicus Budini ---> Celonus
Campus Siracae ---> Uspe
Campus Legae ---> Kabalaka
Vicus Venedae ---> Ascaucalis

From RTR
Region name change
Tribus Neuri ---> Pripet

Approximated
Campus Amyrgicum ---> Eucratidia (Ai-Khanoum or Alexandria on the Oxus)

Not sure how to use them
Vicus Aestii --->
Vicus Tissagetae --->
Vicus Careotae --->
Campus Iazyges --->
Campus Roxolani --->
Campus Iirkae --->
Campus Aorsi --->
Campus Alanni --->
Campus Massagetae --->
Campus Sakae --->

[LucretiusTC]

When I suggested Ascaucalis as a new settlement I was thinking about its location somewhere near the current minor settlement on the XGM campaign map and in the central position comparing to those 3 neighbouring settlements (Rugium, Carrodorum & Vicus Venedae). In that way it would support the gameplay the best possible way.

Besides the current Vicus Venedae locates much further east than Ascaucalis. It is said in some sources that Ascaucalis was "a town of the Burgundiones, Germania". http://www.ancientlibrary.com/gazetteer/0056.html

So if there is a new region, it could be called for instance Tribus Burgundiones (with a settlement Ascaucalis).

But it is a little bit obscure what kind mix of people lived there at this time. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Przeworsk_culture : "However, it is impossible to believe that a single people could lay behind such a territorially wide and culturally varied zone. Therefore, modern thinking leans towards assigning the culture to an association of tribes of proto-Slavic, Germanic and Celtic origins."

In some cases it is highly problematic to use very precise terms, so I don´t mind if there are places like Campus Roxolani, because we just can´t find more certain information about those locations.

Finally when I checked the old mini-map that CaesarVincens made about XGM map regions, I think there is a minor error where two regions have wrong names (Sophene > Aria and Aria > Sophene). Besides in the case of Ireland I would prefer a Latin name Hibernia rather than the name Cuinnacht. Like there is Britannia and Caledonia.

Luc.

[LucretiusTC]

I made some quick checking with the latest version (3.30 Beta; including loyalty option, excluding Carthaginian senate option), and there seem to be some problems with those Provincial campaigns. First four provincial campaigns (Bosporus, Cyrenaica, Epirus, Galatia) seem to work, as they should but I cannot access to those last six ones from Julius Caesar to Syracuse.

After I quitted the whole game there is an error message that says “Rome Total War – Barbarian Invasion: Script Error in xc/data/world maps/campaign/custom/Bosporus/descr_strat.txt, at line 7452, column 68. You have chosen an invalid tile (191,167) for Idanthyrus (scythia).

Those new map changes seem to okay in most cases, but in some cases, the campaign map shows the wrong names. Here are those minor errors that I found.

In Bosporan provincial campaign the map shows name of Campus Sakae (Tribus Sakae) instead of Phanagoria (Sindica), and in Epirote provincial campaign the map shows the name of Chighu (Wusun) instead of Epidamnos (Illyria Graeca). In the Thracian imperial campaign, those Illyrian and Pannonian names seem to be okay.

Besides, in the case of Bosporan campaign Neapolis Scythica (Taurica) needs to rename for something else because Taurica as a region means Crimean Peninsula. Simple solution could be this: Olbia > Scythia Minor and Neapolis Scythica > Scythia Major. However, I could try to find out if there any better candidates that might suit for the current location of Neapolis Scythica.

Finally, in the case of Saba, Opone (Azania) probably needs to rename as Avalites (Punt) that would suit better for its new location.

CV, otherwise you have done a great job, despite of this bug report…

Luc.

[CaesarVincens]

I made some quick checking with the latest version (3.30 Beta; including loyalty option, excluding Carthaginian senate option), and there seem to be some problems with those Provincial campaigns. First four provincial campaigns (Bosporus, Cyrenaica, Epirus, Galatia) seem to work, as they should but I cannot access to those last six ones from Julius Caesar to Syracuse.

After I quitted the whole game there is an error message that says “Rome Total War – Barbarian Invasion: Script Error in xc/data/world maps/campaign/custom/Bosporus/descr_strat.txt, at line 7452, column 68. You have chosen an invalid tile (191,167) for Idanthyrus (scythia).

Those new map changes seem to okay in most cases, but in some cases, the campaign map shows the wrong names. Here are those minor errors that I found.

In Bosporan provincial campaign the map shows name of Campus Sakae (Tribus Sakae) instead of Phanagoria (Sindica), and in Epirote provincial campaign the map shows the name of Chighu (Wusun) instead of Epidamnos (Illyria Graeca). In the Thracian imperial campaign, those Illyrian and Pannonian names seem to be okay.

Besides, in the case of Bosporan campaign Neapolis Scythica (Taurica) needs to rename for something else because Taurica as a region means Crimean Peninsula. Simple solution could be this: Olbia > Scythia Minor and Neapolis Scythica > Scythia Major. However, I could try to find out if there any better candidates that might suit for the current location of Neapolis Scythica.

Finally, in the case of Saba, Opone (Azania) probably needs to rename as Avalites (Punt) that would suit better for its new location.

CV, otherwise you have done a great job, despite of this bug report…

Luc.

Thanks for the report. I thought I got all the campaigns to work... But I did know about the wrong names because I didn't change most of the files (maybe none of them) for the provincial campaigns. The imperial campaign should have most of the correct names though.

[LucretiusTC]

Besides, in the case of Bosporan campaign Neapolis Scythica (Taurica) needs to rename for something else because Taurica as a region means Crimean Peninsula. Simple solution could be this: Olbia > Scythia Minor and Neapolis Scythica > Scythia Major. However, I could try to find out if there any better candidates that might suit for the current location of Neapolis Scythica.

About this question of renaming Neapolis Scythica, I think I have found a relatively good solution. If we use the term "Campus Scythiae Basilaei" (= Royal Scyths), it would give us quite free hands to locate in the best possible way on the campaign map as the settlement for Scythia Major. Otherwise I would like to keep those Sarmatian settlements (Yazyges, Roxolani, Aorsi, Siraces) as they are now, but maybe some re-naming should be done. How about this kind of combination:

Campus Scythiae Basilaei > Scythia Major (replacement for Taurica)
Olbia > Scythia Minor
Gelonus > Tribus Budinai http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gelonians
Vicus Neuri > Pripet

Besides in Germania the region Locus Rugi could be extended a little bit eastwards.

Luc.

[Suppanut]

Caesar, I have see you change and I really like it. Here is my more proposal on map change.

Propose for change

Attachment 49288

Redraw regions
1)
Region: Scythia
Settlement: Gelonus (historical capital of the Scythian)
2)
Region: Locus Careotae
Settlement: Vicus Careotae
3)
Region: Tribus Roxolani
Settlement: Campus Roxolani
4)
Region: Tribus Aorsi
Settlement: Campus Aorsi

Add!
5)
Region: Kernow
Settlement: Ictis
Note: Last area of celtic culture in Southwest Britain
6)
Region: Phasania
Settlement: Garama
Note: Capital of the Garamantes, most dangerous warrior in Sahara at that time, they also have advance technology in irrigation too.
7)
Region: Wusun
Settlement: Chighu
Note: This area is the starting area of of something so called Tocharian Invasion events, I need it for script Tocharian Invasion. They should start with very strong garrison to prevent any easy attempt to capture it.

Change Name
8)
Region: Locus Fennicae
Settlement: Asodat
9)
Region: Tribus Siracae
Settlement: Uspe
10)
Region: Tribus Legae
Settlement: Kabalaka
11)
Region: Tribus Amyrgicum
Settlement: Eucratidia
Note: Move settlement a bit south to near the river
12)
Region: Pripet
Settlement: Vicus Neuri

**note: tribus bastarnae need to expand their southern border nearer to black sea a bit as Bastarnae also have influence reach black sea area.

[Zarax]

CV if you can please keep a spare city slot, I will need it in western mediterranean.

[CaesarVincens]

I'll see what I can do.

[LucretiusTC]

I am not sure if there is a real need for further map changes. Maybe we should test and wait a little bit to see how those latest changes might effect to the gameplay? As we know the number of the settlements is limited, and those extra settlements give extra weight to those larger regions.

In the case of the western Mediterranean, one good option could be Malaka, the modern city of Malaga on the southern coast of Iberian Peninsula. This ancient Phoenician city could be located between Gadir and Carthago Nova. The name Malaka is probably derived from the Phoenician word for salt because the fish was salted near the harbour. The name of the region could be Baetica.

On the other hand, do we want to give some extra weight for East Africa with Napata, a city on the west bank of the Nile River in Nubia and the old religious centre of the Kushite Empire? It could be roughly located halfway between Pselchis and Mëroe on the campaign map.

As long as Scythia (or possibly Sarmatia) is a playable Faction, I would not like to cut too drastically those settlements between Baltic and Black Sea. I would like to keep those four Sarmatian regions named after their most famous nations (Roxolani, Yazyges, Aorsi and Siraces) in the east, and then there should be Scythian regions in the west. Those regions and distances between the settlements are already quite huge comparing to the other parts of the map. On the other hand, maybe Tanais (Maeotis) could control a little bit bigger region including more of those inland territories.

Luc.

[Zarax]

Another option is to have a 2nd province in Sardinia, to represent the fact that the area was notoriously difficult to subdue.
The settlement could be Losa, with docks at Olbia (more or less where the vanilla ones were).

Province name would be barbagia.
This is an example of the fortifications the romans had to face there: