To Deserve Eternal Suffering

[Desperado †]

The idea of a wholly good omnipotent God and Hell are incompatible.

Hell is the worst punishment - it is infinite suffering and you are there for an infinite amount of time. Hence to deserve this you must have committed an infinite crime, which is impossible. And God, being wholly good and omnipotent, would only give you what you deserve. Hence either God is not wholly good or omnipotent, or there is no God or Hell.

(of course, there's the other obvious contradiction - that God being wholly good is all forgiving - so he wouldn't he punish anyone, but we can leave that out for the sake of this discussion).

[familyguy1]

Interesting. Ya ive never really subscribed to the belief in Hell, although its fascinating looking at the so called "History of Hell"...especially Dante's Inferno.

I concur on this point because why is there hell if at the end of the world supposedly everyone is going to be forgiven?

[88MPH]

Failing to conform perfectly to God's Will is an infinite crime. By the nature of your existence, you cannot conform perfectly to God's will, since God can only will perfection and humans cannot be perfect, only God can be (ie, not being God is a sin). So, by existing, you have committed an infinite crime. You, I, and every other created being, therefore, deserve infinite punishment.

[Hiero of Syracuse]

Perhaps hell was just a white lie so people will do their best to do good, sometimes faith just needs to be rewarded.

[Darth Red]

The idea of a wholly good omnipotent God and Hell are incompatible.

Hell is the worst punishment - it is infinite suffering and you are there for an infinite amount of time. Hence to deserve this you must have committed an infinite crime, which is impossible. And God, being wholly good and omnipotent, would only give you what you deserve. Hence either God is not wholly good or omnipotent, or there is no God or Hell.

(of course, there's the other obvious contradiction - that God being wholly good is all forgiving - so he wouldn't he punish anyone, but we can leave that out for the sake of this discussion).

How about a different take on the matter. God doesn't condem your spirit to hell, your spirit cannot bear the thought of heaven if you feel so bad and so wrong for the things that you did in life, and cannot accept forgiveness. Picture yourself at the gates of heaven. Inside is the grandest wedding, ball, black tie affair etc. You show up greasy, unclean, and unkept. Every spirit that shows up is welcome no matter what was done in life, because everyone inside has shown up the same way you have. Your individual spirit cannot bear the thought of going inside, because you feel shame in what you have done. You feel so horrible that you don't think that you would deserve to be there therefore you choose not to go in but turn around and walk away. Also some people that don't go in will nessesarily go to hell. I fell those are the ones that are stuck in the rut here on the physical plane in cases of "hauntings".

[Imperator Romani]

The idea of a wholly good omnipotent God and Hell are incompatible.

Hell is the worst punishment - it is infinite suffering and you are there for an infinite amount of time. Hence to deserve this you must have committed an infinite crime, which is impossible. And God, being wholly good and omnipotent, would only give you what you deserve. Hence either God is not wholly good or omnipotent, or there is no God or Hell.

(of course, there's the other obvious contradiction - that God being wholly good is all forgiving - so he wouldn't he punish anyone, but we can leave that out for the sake of this discussion).

I'll give it a go. And btw, I completly disagree with the above post(Darth Red)



HA! You're telling me you can't commit an infinite crime! Clearly mistaken for one:The universe is infinite, there is no time outside of this existence. So that crime, by law, is infinite. And if you disagree with that, here's number 2: Once you commit a crime, at every existing moment after that you can say you have commited a crime. If I steal from a store when I'm 20, I can still say I stole from a store when I'm 90. I've still done it. When you die, that sin isn't ignored, you will carry it with you for eternity.

Exactly, He's wholly good and omnipotent. This is why He can't be around sin. If you aren't forgiven, you're still of sin. So he can't be around you, make sense?

No, we won't. You don't understand this, so I'll bring it into discussion. He is all forgiving! All you got to do is ask for forgiveness and you're forgiven! You have to mean it though, and to show that you must get baptized. This shows you are ready to leave your sinful nature and try to live for God.

O, AND ALL YOU PEOPLE WHO WANT TO ARGUE HOW THE BIBLE ISN'T TRUE, THIS ISN'T THE PLACE FOR DISCUSSION. SO DON'T POST ON HERE STATING HOW THE BIBLE ISN'T TRUE SO HE SHOULDN'T BE WORRYING ABOUT IT IN THE FIRST PLACE, AS THAT IS COMPLETLY BESIDES THE POINT. THIS INCLUDES STATING THAT IT WAS WRITTEN BY MEN. SO BEAR WITH ME AND THE OP AND STAY ON TOPIC.

[Claudius Gothicus]

According to the Catholic Church this little place called Hell is nothing more that the absence of God during one's afterlife?

[Phier]

According to the Catholic Church this little place called Hell is nothing more that the absence of God during one's afterlife?

So its pretty much just like life?

I've heard that as well and I've always thought I'm not codependent enough to need validation.

[Claudius Gothicus]

So its pretty much just like life?

I've heard that as well and I've always thought I'm not codependent enough to need validation.

It's an insurance contract in case an atheist dies and comes back saying 'Hey I didn't saw anything up there'

[Daeger]

I don't really understand, wtf is the point of all that punishment in hell? Punishments should teach you. You can't really do anything with the lesson you get in hell if you are there for an eternity.

This is exactly why the christian god is a bad god for people. He may be the one who defines morals and what is wrong and right, but if being evil means that I don't want people to suffer for nothing, then should you really bother being good in the eyes of a god that is actually bad god for you?

If you were completely unaware of any concepts of gods, religion, or anything and then someone tells him to imagine a deity that is good for everyone. Why on earth would he come up with anything like the christian god unless he wanted to make other people be like him, have morals like him, etc.. Does that sound familiar? Oh yes, that is so human..

I can imagine thousand images of god that would be much better for us, than the christian one.

[Aetius]

According to the Catholic Church this little place called Hell is nothing more that the absence of God during one's afterlife?

So when you die you see there was no god you still can't prove the Catholic Church wrong. Damn them, they got all their bases covered!

[familyguy1]

So when you die you see there was no god you still can't prove the Catholic Church wrong. Damn them, they got all their bases covered!

[Oberbefehlshaber]

According to the Catholic Church this little place called Hell is nothing more that the absence of God during one's afterlife?

Then Hell must be living on Earth. (absence of God)

[Daeger]

Then Hell must be living on Earth. (absence of God)

Absence of christian god is my heaven. Thank god I shall always be in "heaven". Even when I cease to exist.

[Darth Red]

[QUOTE=PureInfantryWins;5673032]I'll give it a go. And btw, I completly disagree with the above post(Darth Red)



HA! You're telling me you can't commit an infinite crime! Clearly mistaken for one:The universe is infinite, there is no time outside of this existence. So that crime, by law, is infinite. And if you disagree with that, here's number 2: Once you commit a crime, at every existing moment after that you can say you have commited a crime. 1) If I steal from a store when I'm 20, I can still say I stole from a store when I'm 90. I've still done it. When you die, that sin isn't ignored, you will carry it with you for eternity.

2)Exactly, He's wholly good and omnipotent. This is why He can't be around sin. If you aren't forgiven, you're still of sin. So he can't be around you, make sense?

No, we won't. You don't understand this, so I'll bring it into discussion. 3)He is all forgiving! All you got to do is ask for forgiveness and you're forgiven! You have to mean it though, and to show that you must get baptized. This shows you are ready to leave your sinful nature and try to live for God.

I have pointed out three lines you wrote that I agree with. I am not sure I understand why you would completly disagree with me. I find the only difference in arguments might be that I dont believe God condems people to hell, but people choose not to be forgivin.

[Imperator Romani]

[QUOTE=Darth Red;5673112]

I'll give it a go. And btw, I completly disagree with the above post(Darth Red)



HA! You're telling me you can't commit an infinite crime! Clearly mistaken for one:The universe is infinite, there is no time outside of this existence. So that crime, by law, is infinite. And if you disagree with that, here's number 2: Once you commit a crime, at every existing moment after that you can say you have commited a crime. 1) If I steal from a store when I'm 20, I can still say I stole from a store when I'm 90. I've still done it. When you die, that sin isn't ignored, you will carry it with you for eternity.

2)Exactly, He's wholly good and omnipotent. This is why He can't be around sin. If you aren't forgiven, you're still of sin. So he can't be around you, make sense?

No, we won't. You don't understand this, so I'll bring it into discussion. 3)He is all forgiving! All you got to do is ask for forgiveness and you're forgiven! You have to mean it though, and to show that you must get baptized. This shows you are ready to leave your sinful nature and try to live for God.

I have pointed out three lines you wrote that I agree with. I am not sure I understand why you would completly disagree with me. I find the only difference in arguments might be that I dont believe God condems people to hell, but people choose not to be forgivin.

The analogy. I'm pretty sure anyone would go in Heaven anyway if given the choice, and they were at the gates. Once judged, no choice.

[Darth Red]

[QUOTE=PureInfantryWins;5673222]

The analogy. I'm pretty sure anyone would go in Heaven anyway if given the choice, and they were at the gates. Once judged, no choice.

Yes, that is what I ment in my analogy, it is the judgement of not taking God's forgiveness or ie. not entering the gates of heaven. Once you deny forgiveness or ie. judged then yes no more choice the decision is final. I will add this, for the sake of discussion, I have been involved in discussion in my own Catholic church that after satan is destroyed once and for all that even those who were followers of him are still going to get the chance at Heaven...but I am still out on that one.

[Imperator Romani]

[QUOTE=Darth Red;5673846]

Yes, that is what I ment in my analogy, it is the judgement of not taking God's forgiveness or ie. not entering the gates of heaven. Once you deny forgiveness or ie. judged then yes no more choice the decision is final. I will add this, for the sake of discussion, I have been involved in discussion in my own Catholic church that after satan is destroyed once and for all that even those who were followers of him are still going to get the chance at Heaven...but I am still out on that one.

O, your Catholic. I've always been interested in that branch of Christianity, for I want to know how ya'll reach your conclusions about Purgatory and not being submerged in baptism. Do you mind if we discuss this via PM?

[88MPH]

Punishment obviously can't be intended to teach, since humans are constitutionally incapable of understanding or implementing the 'lesson' that the punishment would have to teach, if it were to teach one (that is, how to be perfect).

So your argument is moot.

[88MPH]

I suppose it's a good thing for God that his existence doesn't depend on your wanting Him around.

The reverse doesn't hold for you, however, so you might want to take care with how you speak of Him.