guild in their respective towns?

**Mac-Picsou** · July 30, 2009, 08:00 AM

This is just an idea, but should the guilds be present in their respective towns?

By example, the siege of the compostel knights in santtiago, templar guils in south of france ect..?
This is frustating when i see the siege of hospitalers knights in edimburg...

**Grimblade** · July 30, 2009, 09:41 AM

No. Less gameplay options and playing DLV is not same as reading history book, it would not only remove random events that enhance gamplay but in many ways you would be forced to replay same thing over and over in an exact same way. Besides aren't there much MUCH worse problems like the fact that you can't have twins, Muslim characters that can have one wife only, the fact that your characters adopt 30 year old people (when they are a year older and maybe even people older then themselves) and yadda, dadda ...
Not to mention that Creative Assembly (judging by the 1.4 Empire patch ) doesn't even care about history.
DLV follows historic events and facts mostly where they enhance gameplay as it should be(of course if M2TW engine was not so limited then DLV could have much better gameplay and closer to real world historical events and facts).

**BamaToon** · July 30, 2009, 01:03 PM

What Grimblade said.

I like the fact that I can "rewrite" history when playing DLV. If it was limited to real history, then the game would be the same every time you played it, and would quickly become boring.

**Xtiaan72** · July 30, 2009, 02:31 PM

I did spend a huge portion of a Venice game once trying to get the Hospitaller Knights to appear in Malta. No Luck though!

**Grimblade** · July 30, 2009, 03:17 PM

Originally Posted by Xtiaan72

I did spend a huge portion of a Venice game once trying to get the Hospitaller Knights to appear in Malta. No Luck though!

Those could be changed ( and changes like those I would support). I even made something like that with new Hanseatic League and Lubeck ( I am working on that fix for now finishing Royal Harem/ Royal Administration).

Ooops I meant Lubeck.

**Xtiaan72** · July 30, 2009, 06:59 PM

Originally Posted by Grimblade

Those could be changed ( and changes like those I would support). I even made something like that with new Hanseatic League and Lubeck ( I am working on that fix for now finishing Royal Harem/ Royal Administration).

Ooops I meant Lubeck.

Early game you get the 'Establish Templar House' pretty easily ( perhaps too easily) by just pumping out militia spearmen... If you turn it down, you are usually offered the Hospitallers on the following turn. Problem if you are trying to get the Hospitallers in a certain town is that after the first 20 turns or so, Crusader Knight charter offers seem to sputter out.

So these houses tent to spring up in unlikely places and not in places where they should be. It would be cool if they sprung up first in the Holy Land and the offers slowly spread across Europe so players had a chance to put them where they want them.

Also getting them so early in the game kinda throws off game balance as the Charter Knight units are so much better than all first tier units and most second tier units.... Just some thoughts. Maybe these events should start triggering later (around 1200?) for game balance sake?

**Morty** · July 30, 2009, 08:59 PM

Originally Posted by Xtiaan72

Early game you get the 'Establish Templar House' pretty easily (perhaps too easily) by just pumping out militia spearmen...

...Maybe these events should start triggering later (around 1200?) for game balance sake?

I wholeheartedly agree with this statement and suggestion. Knight orders are over powered because they can appear so early coupled with the stats of their tier 1 units, when most factions are still working on their first castle.

Hospitaller & Templar: Make Acre KoJ's http://whc.unesco.org/en/list/1042 & http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/.../vie/Acco.html. Put a Hospitaller order at Karak. Let Jerusalem keep its initial Templar order. An event allowing other factions to have Hospitaller/Templar orders is a good idea, 1200 is a reasonable suggestion. This way the well known orders are represented in game in a more accurate manner historically.

Santiago: These guys were allowed to marry which hastened their spreading. Since they were formed in 1175 (as a military order) allowing them to be available at game start is historically accurate. That being said it would need to be balanced out in another manner. If one wants to immulate history while balancing the availability of Order of Santiago's units you could make their tier 1 units weaker. Another way would be to create a new and weaker unit and make this new unit their tier 1 ala Templar seargents but weaker. In this manner you are delaying the arrival of dismounted knights of Santiago which are clearly overpowered if their chapter house is available at game start. http://www.chivalricorders.org/order...h/santiago.htm

Teutonic: This is a tough one to balance. The faction didn't even exist (as an military order) until 1192 and didn't show up in Prussia until 1227. My suggestion would be to create an event in 1192 that not only allows the Teutonic faction to build the chapter houses but they would get a free chapter house (is it even possible to mod that?) at their capital, maybe even a couple tier 1 units. This would help balance their precarious military situation given their initial starting area/neighbors (sans Acre).

Allowing the Teutonic faction to have chapter houses in Prussia at 1192 is not historically accurate but I know I for one wouldn't want to wait till 1227

.

Allow HRE to get Teutonic chapters after an event. 1214 is appropiate. The Vaticans website for the nitty gritty. http://www.chivalricorders.org/vatican/teutonic.htm

Morty

**Taiji** · July 31, 2009, 08:21 AM

Perhaps it's these causing the problem:

;------------------------------------------
Trigger 0196_Governor_Chivalry
WhenToTest SettlementTurnStart

Condition GovernorAttribute Chivalry > 3

Guild woodsmens_guild s 5
Guild knights_of_santiago_chapter_house s 5
Guild st_johns_chapter_house s 5

;------------------------------------------
Trigger 0197_Governor_Chivalry2
WhenToTest SettlementTurnStart

Condition GovernorAttribute Chivalry > 3

Guild templars_chapter_house s 5
Guild teutonic_knights_chapter_house s 5

;------------------------------------------

They seem to give points for having a governer with more than 3 chiv. Good idea to add another trigger for a succesful crusade, there's a trigger for joining and a penalty for leaving but no bonus for success.

**Morty** · July 31, 2009, 09:02 AM

Those chivalry 3 ones could probably be toned down. Assume you park a named character at game start in a town, on turn 2 he becomes a governor with 4 chivalry. On turn 21 you will get your first chapter offered to you.

On the subject of other triggers I particularly like the neighbor is x religion ones. Those make sense to me.

Maybe a 3rd crusade related trigger? This one upon arrival to crusade province. In this manner the triggers would follow papal approval ratings, also logical. One for joining, a 2nd for arriving, and a final for success.

Morty

**Xtiaan72** · July 31, 2009, 09:31 AM

Condition GovernorAttribute Chivalry > 3

That is definitely the major culprit. The Logical decision (especially in default) is to give most of your family members the Governor Career path. That is automatically +4 Chivalry right off the bat right?

So the trigger could be a successful crusade or a governor with ridiculously high chivalry ( so you would at least have to fight some battles with your governor to get the charter?)

With those conditions it probably would not even be necessary to delay the triggers for a set number of turns. They would actually be pretty hard to get. I still think the first tier Charter Knights should be toned down just a bit though.

I never run into AI factions that ever get them before me so they are a 'super-weapon' against the AI atm

**Grimblade** · July 31, 2009, 10:06 AM

Originally Posted by Xtiaan72

Condition GovernorAttribute Chivalry > 3

That is definitely the major culprit. The Logical decision (especially in default) is to give most of your family members the Governor Career path. That is automatically +4 Chivalry right off the bat right?

So the trigger could be a successful crusade or a governor with ridiculously high chivalry ( so you would at least have to fight some battles with your governor to get the charter?)

With those conditions it probably would not even be necessary to delay the triggers for a set number of turns. They would actually be pretty hard to get. I still think the first tier Charter Knights should be toned down just a bit though.

I never run into AI factions that ever get them before me so they are a 'super-weapon' against the AI atm

I guess it should be

;------------------------------------------
Trigger 0196_Governor_Chivalry
WhenToTest SettlementTurnStart

Condition GovernorAttribute Chivalry > 9 ; or 8

Guild woodsmens_guild s 3
Guild knights_of_santiago_chapter_house s 3
Guild st_johns_chapter_house s 3

;------------------------------------------
Trigger 0197_Governor_Chivalry2
WhenToTest SettlementTurnStart

Condition GovernorAttribute Chivalry > 9 ; or 8

Guild templars_chapter_house s 3
Guild teutonic_knights_chapter_house s 3

;------------------------------------------

Also Jerusalem could create more Templar and Hospitaller points for Catholic factions holding it.
And ArmyTakesCrusadeTarget EVENT could give points to military orders.

**Xtiaan72** · July 31, 2009, 10:44 AM

It's been really nice having you around Grimblade! Cheers mate!

I really think both you and Morty should put some of these ideas in the 6.1 Feedback thread for REPMAN.. He is always appreciative of very detailed feedback. Wouldn't be surprised if he liked some of them and worked them in.

**BamaToon** · July 31, 2009, 10:06 AM

I always abandon Acre whenever I play as the Teutonic Order. I hate having territory separated, and as you guys have stated, it's not historically accurate anyway.

That being said, there are some really good ideas being tossed around in here.