Thought Experiment: Divorcing Israel

[Jexiel]

Here's something that has bothered me for a while: Why do extreme, cultist Muslims (and to a lesser degree mainstream Muslims) hate and/or hold negative views about the United States when other countries, specifically China and Russia, actively target and oppress their Muslim populations?

While it is true some elements of US society mistrust Muslims, this group still receives a higher level of respect than their non-US counterparts. Except for experiencing a higher number of "random" security checks at transportation hubs, US Muslims do not have to fear government crackdowns, cancellation of religious services, nor open war. Many of you know about the war in Chechnya, a country where the majority are Sunni Muslims that was under control of Eastern Orthodox Russians/Soviets. You may also know about the Chinese government's recent crackdown on Uighur Muslims, a group of people residing in Western China.

These two countries openly and violently oppress their Muslim populations yet we have yet to see a video of Bin Laden promising "Death to China." Why? Could it be because the US actively supports Israel?

I believe that if the US government severs its alliance with Israel it would see a significant improvement of its relation with Islamic countries. Even perhaps to the point where the Middle East would no longer be a major problem for US foreign policy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chechnya#Demographics
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/1887335.stm
http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id...onid=351020101
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4435135.stm
http://www.time.com/time/world/artic...911002,00.html

[Mithie]

These two countries openly and violently oppress their Muslim populations yet we have yet to see a video of Bin Laden promising "Death to China." Why? Could it be because the US actively supports Israel?

China didn't invade the Middle East.

[Jexiel]

Understandable.

The USSR invaded Afghanistan, was repelled, but has never received the kind of vicious hatred the US has received since the 1970s. The UK reconquered Jerusalem in 1917 and as far as I know never experienced this kind of hatred until now.

I do not think any Islamic country mourns the death of Saddam Hussein and I doubt many care about the Taliban. It all seems to point back to Israel. One can say this is the crusades all over again.

[Mikelus Trento]

Understandable.

The USSR invaded Afghanistan, was repelled, but has never received the kind of vicious hatred the US has received since the 1970s. The UK reconquered Jerusalem in 1917 and as far as I know never experienced this kind of hatred until now.

I do not think any Islamic country mourns the death of Saddam Hussein and I doubt many care about the Taliban. It all seems to point back to Israel. One can say this is the crusades all over again.

No, one cannot say that. Or we would have annexed Iraq for its oil and not liberated it. And already blasted Iran. Or never left Kuwait.

[Aetius]

No, one cannot say that.

Oh really?

Israel

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Kingdom of Jerusalem

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

The similarities between the two are frightening (not just the geography...)

[Tiberios]

Oh really?

Israel

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Kingdom of Jerusalem

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

The similarities between the two are frightening (not just the geography...)

Yeah, except that one was a Christian Kingdom ruled by a Frankish elite that surpressed both Jews and Muslims and the other is a Jewish National state.
These two states have nothing to with each other except for the geographic location

They are completly different.
It's like comparing the Eastern Roman Empire to the Ottoman empire just because they encompassed roughly the same territory at their respective zenith's.

[jankren]

The similarities between the two are frightening (not just the geography...)

Lol,

Yeah true, and what happened to Kingdom of Jerusalem will also happen to Israel.

God Willing.

[Adhamh Ashashi]

Understandable.

The USSR invaded Afghanistan, was repelled, but has never received the kind of vicious hatred the US has received since the 1970s. The UK reconquered Jerusalem in 1917 and as far as I know never experienced this kind of hatred until now.

I do not think any Islamic country mourns the death of Saddam Hussein and I doubt many care about the Taliban. It all seems to point back to Israel. One can say this is the crusades all over again.

Because USSR learnt it's lesson. They have not invaded Afghanistan since. They still get a lot of stick about Chechnya and until Chechnya are given some form of freedom I can't see it ending.

I don't mourn Saddam Hussein's death, however I do mourn the loss of control in Iraq.

And I don't like the UK's participation in the Iraq war. My personal choice.

And the US are disliked for supporting israel, which many Muslim country see as unfair due to the whole israel thing which I will exclude from this because we are not talking about israel and Palestine.

[Erik]

USA is hated for two reasons:

-Israel
-Their support for brutal dictatorships (Saddam, the Shah of Iran, Saudi's etc.).

Divorcing Israel would be a good first step to a more stable world, though.

[♔Goodguy1066♔]

USA is hated for two reasons:

-Israel
-Their support for brutal dictatorships (Saddam, the Shah of Iran, Saudi's etc.).

Divorcing Israel would be a good first step to a more stable world, though.

That's pretty selfish, isn't it? Don't you think that the US government has a reason for aiding Israel, like the fact that Jews have no homeland and are victims of antisemitism, while the Muslims and Palestinians have over 50 countries they could go to when in trouble? And anyway, the Israelis have given much aid back to America, in the form of Medicine and Technology, while all the Arabs give back is Oil. Israel is America's biggest ally in the Mid-East, and the Us is Israel's biggest ally in the world. "Divorcing" would not aid in any way to world stability and it is ignorant and selfish of you to think so.

[Oldgamer]

@kb8

No, I haven't forgotten Edmund Burke. In fact two of my favorite quotes are his:

1: All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.

and

2: He who wrestles with us strengthens our nerves and sharpens our skill. Our antagonist is our helper.

The second quote probably summarizes quite nicely why I come to the TWC, and discuss matters of importance and the great moral issues of our day with excellent debaters like you. At 61, I can lose sight of what is actually going on, in the world. Our discussions help to sharpen me, and understand where you and others are "coming from".

The reason you might consider some of my views "extreme" ... and I freely admit that some of them are ... is probably centered in the divide between our two countries. In our country, if you were a politician holding the views that you express, I would consider you to be a moderate in the mold of someone like Colin Powell, who could go either way on any given issue. Do most Conservatives hold the views that you do in the UK, or are you views "extreme" among Conservatives?

For my part, I will not give up my view on the Vietnam War. I was there, and I knew who I was fighting. Documents from the former Soviet Union expressly identify the tremendous strain on the Soviet economy during the Vietnam War, and helped to push the behemoth over the edge of the abyss. Afghanistan and "Star Wars" did the rest.

By the way, the fall of the USSR, and the reunification of Germany, was something that I didn't expect to happen for many generations of my family, though I had no doubt concerning the outcome.

Two statements concerning your previous post: Like Jefferson, I'm opposed to the Church interfering in matters of State. I don't know exactly where you got the idea that I'm a social conservative who's pushing for a theocracy. I'm not.

When I talk about wealth, I'm not talking about becoming a billionaire. "Where your heart is, there will your treasure be, also." I have a comfortable life that I worked hard to gain. My greatest treasure cannot be measured in money. I've been married to the same woman for 35 years. We had six children, together. We have four grandchildren that I wish to inherit what modest wealth I have accumulated.

The above paragraph is just to explain my thinking on the accumulation of wealth being synonymous with "the Pursuit of Happiness".

One final thing, I'm not in favor of "collateral damage", nor are most Americans. I think that the terrorists who gather their families about them commit a heinous crime, in so doing, and our troops should do all that they can to see to it that these innocents are not wounded or killed in the process of prosecuting the war against the terrorists. Unfortunately, the terrorists realize this, which is exactly why they use their families as human shields.

[Samurai Doc]

USA is hated for two reasons:

-Israel
-Their support for brutal dictatorships (Saddam, the Shah of Iran, Saudi's etc.).

Divorcing Israel would be a good first step to a more stable world, though.

Wrong. The USA alongside anyone else in the Dar-al-Harb (House of War/non-Muslim countries) are hated because they are unbelievers. Everything that is Western; independent women, open homosexuality, equality of the sexes, secular government are all anathema to the purists in Islam. They believe that they are divinely sanctioned to unite all the world under an Islamic caliphate.

The USA receives special hatred because it's the biggest dog in the pound so to speak. Why exactly is it though that Israel, a country roughly the size of New Jersey is so reviled by Muslims? There is one Jewish state in the world and dozens of Muslim ones.

It's funny though that you mention Saddam's dictatorship. So we're hated for supporting it, but hated for destroying it too? Interesting.

I can't understand how any well-meaning liberal or conservative would not support Israel over the monsters like Hamas and similar thugs. There is no other place in the Middle East where Muslims, women, and homosexuals have it better than in Israel.

[Adhamh Ashashi]

Wrong. The USA alongside anyone else in the Dar-al-Harb (House of War/non-Muslim countries) are hated because they are unbelievers. Everything that is Western; independent women, open homosexuality, equality of the sexes, secular government are all anathema to the purists in Islam. They believe that they are divinely sanctioned to unite all the world under an Islamic caliphate.

Funny that you don't see these Muslim countires taking a pop at the likes of Canada and Mexico, all of which seem to have the same views as the US.

The USA receives special hatred because it's the biggest dog in the pound so to speak. Why exactly is it though that Israel, a country roughly the size of New Jersey is so reviled by Muslims? There is one Jewish state in the world and dozens of Muslim ones.

You recieve the most hatred because your forces have helped destroy 2 Muslim countries. That is quite a thing to do.

Also, israel is land stolen from Palestinians, if you stole something of mine, I would be pissed too.

It's funny though that you mention Saddam's dictatorship. So we're hated for supporting it, but hated for destroying it too? Interesting.

Saddam become a risk, so you had him destroyed. You made him and destroyed him.

I can't understand how any well-meaning liberal or conservative would not support Israel over the monsters like Hamas and similar thugs. There is no other place in the Middle East where Muslims, women, and homosexuals have it better than in Israel.

I don't because israel is the biggest thug in the Middle East. The way the IDF handle civilians is beyond barbaric.

[Samurai Doc]

Funny that you don't see these Muslim countires taking a pop at the likes of Canada and Mexico, all of which seem to have the same views as the US.

Well not Muslim countries, but...

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/americ...ror/index.html

You recieve the most hatred because your forces have helped destroy 2 Muslim countries. That is quite a thing to do.

I assume you mean Afghanistan as the 2nd country? Destroyed?! You mean toppling the thugocracy of the Taliban is tantamount to destroying a country in your eyes? In what twisted world? However shaky the current Afghan government is, I hardly consider it worse off than pre-invasion.

Also, israel is land stolen from Palestinians, if you stole something of mine, I would be pissed too.

Just curious, how did Islam spread? And why is it that the Palestinians did not accept the two-state solution when it was proposed at the founding of Israel? They rejected it outright.

Saddam become a risk, so you had him destroyed. You made him and destroyed him.

If you believe that, then why aren't you celebrating America's change of heart?

I don't because israel is the biggest thug in the Middle East. The way the IDF handle civilians is beyond barbaric.

Any of it comparable to Hamas instituting crucifixion as a punishment?

[Adhamh Ashashi]

Well not Muslim countries, but...

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/americ...ror/index.html

A Muslim, one of over 1 billion wanted to do this. the same way you still have white people ahting blacks for no reason.Are you going to base every Muslim on this small minority? Because fi you do, you are as bad as them.

I assume you mean Afghanistan as the 2nd country? Destroyed?! You mean toppling the thugocracy of the Taliban is tantamount to destroying a country in your eyes? In what twisted world? However shaky the current Afghan government is, I hardly consider it worse off than pre-invasion.

People still fighting to this day? Peopel still blwoing eachother up in marketplaces. Sorry, you have just worsened the situation in my eyes.

Just curious, how did Islam spread? And why is it that the Palestinians did not accept the two-state solution when it was proposed at the founding of Israel? They rejected it outright.

Rejected it because it was their land. I would not allow someone to take my land and expect me to accept half of it back. Just pure insanity.

Islam spread through many ways, by preaching and in some cases when preachers were attacked, through the sword.

Plus let us not go back to the 700's, if we are going to play taht game we might as well talk about the Crusades.

If you believe that, then why aren't you celebrating America's change of heart?

I never said I liked Saddam. I just hate Iraq the way it is now, Shia and Sunni killing eachother, with American soldiers watching the show they help produce.

Any of it comparable to Hamas instituting crucifixion as a punishment?

Sorry what? Pure rubbish right there. Please try and provide some fact behind your fiction.

[Generaal Van Heutsz]

*-Their support for brutal dictatorships (Saddam, *etc.).

*



Yet another comment of your of which the irony seems to be completely lost to you. So fist the US is hated for supporting the brutal Saddam and then it is hated for trying to depose of him**


You must have been all for the liberation of Iraq then?

I believe that if the US government severs its alliance with Israel it would see a significant improvement of its relation with Islamic countries. Even perhaps to the point where the Middle East would no longer be a major problem for US foreign policy.

Don't count on it, they hate us because we are infidels, Israel has in essence nothing to do with it except that is is one of the few pieces of land in the world which was succesfully liberated from mohammedan rule, so it's an obvious and easy target.


If we would give up on Israel it would merely embolden them they would go for Spain, Greece and the Balkan and after that the rest of the world.*

[Gromovnik]

Here's something that has bothered me for a while: Why do extreme, cultist Muslims (and to a lesser degree mainstream Muslims) hate and/or hold negative views about the United States when other countries, specifically China and Russia, actively target and oppress their Muslim populations?

While it is true some elements of US society mistrust Muslims, this group still receives a higher level of respect than their non-US counterparts. Except for experiencing a higher number of "random" security checks at transportation hubs, US Muslims do not have to fear government crackdowns, cancellation of religious services, nor open war. Many of you know about the war in Chechnya, a country where the majority are Sunni Muslims that was under control of Eastern Orthodox Russians/Soviets. You may also know about the Chinese government's recent crackdown on Uighur Muslims, a group of people residing in Western China.

These two countries openly and violently oppress their Muslim populations yet we have yet to see a video of Bin Laden promising "Death to China." Why? Could it be because the US actively supports Israel?

I believe that if the US government severs its alliance with Israel it would see a significant improvement of its relation with Islamic countries. Even perhaps to the point where the Middle East would no longer be a major problem for US foreign policy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chechnya#Demographics
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/1887335.stm
http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id...onid=351020101
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4435135.stm
http://www.time.com/time/world/artic...911002,00.html

nice try...

[Tajir]

Many countries oppress Muslims, not a big deal, hell Muslim countries oppress Muslims more than the US. First and foremost its Arab sentiments that hate the US, not exactly Muslims, aside from the few pan-Islamists here and there.

And like someone said, Russia and China never setup puppet dictators in the ME. Any mildly educated Arab should hate the US, its common logic.

[removeduser_052420]

Most Middle Class Muslims dislike the USA because of it's support of both "secular" and "islamic" dictators. Many Pakistanis distrust the USA because of both its heavy bias towards Israel, and the fact that the USA never let democracy flourish in Pakistan, because it found that supporting pro-USA dictators would be a much better idea in the short term.

[Dr. Croccer]

The US supported, and still supports, essentiallty horrible regimes in the Middle East, like Shahist Persia and Iraq, untill they crumbled or turned on the US. The USSR tried the same thing, and become the primary focus of Islamist hatred. The US supported those movements. The USSR crumbles and the Islamists turn their hatred on the remaining ''Great Satans'', Israel and the US.