Swords for Hoplites

[Pelopidas_Of_Thebes]

Is it possible to add hypaspists with spears and a shield to the Seleucids?

Can you add secondary weapons for hoplites (swords)? I'm able to edit hoplites so that they form a tight phalanx, (with reserve hoplites, or hoplites at the back raising their spears in an angle, and the front hoplites with overarm spears for fighting, which is historically accurate), but I'd like them to use secondary weapons when they are heavily flanked. The way I tweaked my hoplites into phalanx, they are more organised and cohesive in combat and movement than shield wall.


It is possible to add secondary weapons for hoplites, I did it, it functions properly, but it's just missing the model for the sword. My guess is that I have to edit the 3ds models to include swords, of which I can't do :/ . It'd be nice, adding a sword model for hoplites .

[DimeBagHo]

Pelopidas_Of_Thebes: It is possible to add secondary weapons to Hoplites. I think most, if not all, of the models have swords, so it's just a matter of editing EDU and DMB. Unfortunately the way they switch weapons is not good, so I haven't done it in XGM.

[Pelopidas_Of_Thebes]

Request:

I was able to tweak them into a phalanx formation, where the front ranks of the hoplites fought with over-arm spears, and the reserves holding their spears at an angle (which is 100% historically accurate).
[ Primary weapon characteristics were altered, so it was "spears" instead of "light_spears" and phalanx is added as a formation ]
They will ONLY draw swords when they are heavily flanked, but they MAINLY use their SPEARS in the front of the phalanx. I got it to work, but there is no model of the sword in the hands. Could you tell me how to add the model of the sword? thanks

The phalanx of the hoplite didnt all have spears over arm during combat. The front did, but the reserves held it an an angle or vertically. Source: http://qa.perl.org/phalanx/history.html and the book: Rome and Greece at War by Peter Colony. In the link, there is a picture of the phalanx when they are marching. When the phalanx marched, the front hoplites held the spears under-arm and the reserves held it vertically or at an angle.... when they fought, the front phalanx fought with over-arm spears while the reserves held the spears vertically or at an angle.

[CaesarVincens]

Classical hoplites would likely have fought both over- and under-hand, depending on the situation. It's really hard to say exactly how hoplites fought because there are few if any contemporary sources that describe it in detail.

[DimeBagHo]

Pelopidas_Of_Thebes: If you give them the phalanx formation then weapon switching will work fine. Without the phalanx formation they will tend to switch between spears and swords at odd times.

To add swords: In description_model_battle.txt add a second swordsman skeleton (use one of the phalangite units as an example). In export_descr_units.txt add stats for their secondary weapon.

Of course what you will get is just another phalangite unit, which all the Greek factions already have. You might want change the stats to match other phalangite units as well, otherwise they will be over-powered.

[Pelopidas_Of_Thebes]

Pelopidas_Of_Thebes: If you give them the phalanx formation then weapon switching will work fine. Without the phalanx formation they will tend to switch between spears and swords at odd times.

To add swords: In description_model_battle.txt add a second swordsman skeleton (use one of the phalangite units as an example). In export_descr_units.txt add stats for their secondary weapon.

Of course what you will get is just another phalangite unit, which all the Greek factions already have. You might want change the stats to match other phalangite units as well, otherwise they will be over-powered.

Thank you very much, always helpful ^^. Btw, is it possible to edit the spear length in phalanx? Im trying my best to make hoplites in phalanx formation as much accurate as possible.

[oudysseos]

edit- moved to another forum

[silvathegod]

Pelopidas_Of_Thebes, you should share your discovery

[DimeBagHo]

On the subject of cloaks: The famous red cloaks of the Spartans might have been reserved for special occasions, but cloaks were a standard item of clothing in the period. All soldiers would have had them, even in warm climates, because on campaign they would have needed to be able to camp in the open or stand watch. Whether they were worn on the battlefield or not would have depended entirely on the weather.

If you look at imagery from around the game-period (the Alexander Sarcophagus, or Hadrian's Column for example) you can find plenty of examples of cloaks being worn.

[CaesarVincens]

I think his problem is that there is no model for swords, or no skinning for it.

[Zarax]

You could add the short_pike attribute but beware that there might be other issues.

[Pelopidas_Of_Thebes]

You could add the short_pike attribute but beware that there might be other issues.

That doesnt allow hoplites to use secondary weapons, like swords properly.

[Zarax]

i see... then i'm afraid there is no other solution short of model tweaks

[DimeBagHo]

You can control the length of pikes by using the 'long_pike', 'short_pike', or no pike attribute. If you use the phalanx formation with no pike attribute then you get the pike length used for Hoplites in vanilla. You can also scale the model that the game uses for pikes, but that requires 3DSMax and there is only one model for all three lengths - so if you make it smaller then all pike sizes will be smaller.

[Pelopidas_Of_Thebes]

Guys, I thought we'd had a vote way back when on the Hoplite spear/sword switching and combat stats question.

It was decided that due to the game's (enlightened) design the way they are now was the best way to have them for playability and satisfaction.

I'm not saying Pelopidas_Of_Thebes shouldn't get help to get what he wants, but it doesn't belong in this thread, its not a feature request its a personal modification.

I agree. I've moved all the stuff about secondary weapons for Hoplites to a new thread. -DBH

Dw im currently debating about the historical accuracies of hoplites in EB and XGM (possibly, since they are similar) in the EB forum. People are stubborn to their views in EB forum, I have multiple good book sources, while they only have one (if any). I quote pages and info, they dont. They seem to have the wrong interpretation of hoplites. Plus, they are constantly annoying me, greatly, since they make silly assumptions, And they also keep on repeating themselves, that pikemen are not similar to hoplites (I already know that, infact I provided and evaluated more information about pikemen and hoplites than they do, they seem to have limited knowledge and evaluation skills :/).

it is indeed quite possible to make them accurate in the RTW engine, just needs people to mod it (since i cant mod models well, but EDU's and etc. is ok i guess). It should be all explained in my thread, sorry for advertising it.

[Zarax]

Pelopidas, EB is a well established and respected mod throughout the community.
If you have an issue with something in their mod you should discuss it there.

As long as you wish to seek suggestions on how to develop your ideas about hoplites we will gladly try to give you tips, but we are not going to allow this board to be involved in any kind of controversy with other modding teams.

I've seen your comments on the EB forum, this is just a friendly reminder that XGM is allergic to mod bashing

[Pelopidas_Of_Thebes]

Agreed, my thread on hoplite accuary and suggestions is in the EB forum, sorry for advertising.

[Zarax]

I've seen the thread.
One of the reasons why both EB and XGM switched from RTW phalanx is that it makes charging impossible. There is simply no modding around.

The hoplite phalanx was not just a defensive one like its macedonian counterpart but offensive as well.
Using the phalanx settings makes it unfeasible and harms hoplite representation a whole lot.

In short, the swords were "sacrified" because in the end it was impossible to keep the formation fighting in a realistic way due to the weapon switch bug (which makes hoplites useless against cavalry).
To compensate, their internal stats are in a way halfway between swordsmen and spearmen to represent the use of swords.

Research on how to keep improving hoplite behaviour has not stopped.

There are 3 main currents (AFAIK):

- use of BI shield wall (which is what XGM uses)
- use of the short_pike phalanx (which allows charging but as you noticed has issues)
- use of custom density values (partially implemented in XGM, there is an EB submod for it)

That said, if you're willing to learn 3d studio max or find a modeler willing to help you experiment you can develop your minimod and give a more solid base in game to your idea.

Also, you might be more successful by studying a bit of how the current hoplite units have been developed by the various mods.
With a bit of research you will find out that a solution similar to yours has been tested (EB 0.8 IIRC) and rejected due to issues with other aspect of realism/gameplay.

Finally, before saying that somebody is posting incorrect stuff take note that in the EB team there are several professional historians (including one or two university professors IIRC) and those are guys that read Xenophon and Polybius (plus a ton of other sources) in their original language.

Personally I'd suggest you to drop the current debate you're in because the whole tone just resulted in deeply entrenched positions.
After that, you can make a list of sources and quotes from then supported by some in-game implementation.

That way you might find some more open ears.

[Pelopidas_Of_Thebes]

That's odd, then if they have 2 professors on history specialising in greek warfare, then they would surely have spotted mistakes regarding to other aspects.

Firstly, why some hoplites have cloaks on them. Most hoplites having a type of bronze cuirass, which has the design specifically for officers and calvary (muscled cuirass). These things which can be easily edited without gameplay consequences are vital aspects of proper representation of Greek Hoplites? Xenophon has quoted before that Spartan hoplites in the Battle of Thermopylae didnt wear cloaks in battle. We presume from then onwards, they will never, ever wear cloaks (unless they grew dumber than they were). Even if you interpret Spartan Hoplite wearing capes, then other hoplites will definetely not use capes, since only spartans had red capes (which was used in ceremony), that was one of their unique features. Findings of Bell cuirasses fell in the 6th century, as popularity with it lost significatnly, it was ditched for the linen cuirass. The Bell cuirass would evolve into the muscled cuirass, which was used by senior officers more commonly and calvary units. A whole unit of muscled cuirass is absurb. Many pictures on old vas's and archaeological findings prove so.

The hoplite formation I described is correct, if those 2 proffessors disagree, then they are disagreeing with most high schools which teach history, most books and etc. Besides, they never posted any threads, I didnt even talk to them or say they were wrong to them. It also makes sense to me, the EB presentation of hoplites marching and fighting is odd and unsmooth. Who knows? They might lie about their careers? They might not have been listened to EB modders?

How many proffessors are there? thousands, and only few are reknown and regarded to as "correct". A proffessor from what, a random small university in America? I dont know, tell me more.

I dont know about opening ears.

[Zarax]

Let me reinstate this one more time.
IF you have an issue with EB you should go to their forums.
Let's keep this about modding aspects or next time I will be forced to loose my nice side

About capes, I guess it's a design choice, XGM hoplites have as well.
Muscled cuirasses were still used by our timeframe but only by rich elites.
This is correctly depicted as the normal hoplites are shown using a linothorax while sacred bands, chosen hoplites and the spartan elite uses the heavier model.
Lastly, a muscled cuirass is different from a bell cuirass, as the name itself suggests, you can research a bit to see what I mean.

Finally, a friendly advice.
Going into a forum and starting with "your work is wrong, I am right" is only going to generate hostility towards you, because no matter where right and wrong are you're going to piss off people that worked hard to create the mod.

As I said before, make a list of sources and then try to implement your idea in game. If it works it may be listened much better than words.