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  1. #1
    nopasties's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default US Economc Decline Slowing

    http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...d=arlOogiw42K4
    Fed Says Most Districts Report Slower Pace Decline (Update2)
    By Scott Lanman


    July 29 (Bloomberg) -- The Federal Reserve said most of its 12 regional banks detected a slower pace of economic decline in June and July, further signs the worst U.S. downturn in at least five decades is closer to an end.
    “Economic activity continued to be weak” in June and July, the Fed said today in its Beige Book business survey, published two weeks before officials meet to set monetary policy. San Francisco, the district with the biggest economy, and three others “pointed to signs of stabilization,” while Chicago and St. Louis showed a “moderating” pace of decline.
    The report backs up comments by Chairman Ben S. Bernanke, who told Congress last week the economy’s contraction “appears to have slowed significantly,” with demand and production showing “tentative signs of stabilization.” Other Fed policy makers said this week they expect a slow recovery to begin during the second half of this year.
    The Beige Book provided few signs of outright growth. Retail demand was “sluggish” in most areas, with “mixed” auto sales. Non-financial services were “largely negative” with “a few bright spots,” and manufacturing was “subdued” yet “slightly more positive” than in the previous report, the Fed said.
    Lending in most regions “was stable or weakened further” in most loan categories, and banks tightened credit standards in seven districts, the report said.
    ‘Less Upbeat’
    “We are very close to the bottom,” said Lyle Gramley, senior economic adviser with New York-based Soleil Securities Corp. and a former central bank governor. “The Beige Book is a little less upbeat than the numbers that have been coming in.”
    Gramley cited today’s report of orders for U.S. durable goods, excluding automobiles and aircraft, which unexpectedly rose in June. Excluding transportation equipment, demand for goods meant to last several years climbed 1.1 percent, the most in four months, the Commerce Department said today in Washington.
    “The Fed is nowhere near in a position of changing its posture of monetary policy,” Gramley said.
    The Fed report reflects information collected through July 20 and summarized by staffers at the Boston Fed. The Federal Open Market Committee next meets in Washington Aug. 11-12. At their last meeting in June, officials refrained from adding to their $1.75 trillion program to buy housing debt and Treasuries, saying they were “uncertain” of the impact of such a move.
    GDP Shrank
    Government figures on July 31 may show that U.S. gross domestic product shrank at a 1.5 percent annual pace in the second quarter, less than the 5.5 percent contraction in the previous three months, according to the median of 77 estimates in a Bloomberg News survey.
    The previous Beige Book, released June 10, said “economic conditions remained weak or deteriorated further” from mid- April through May, while five districts “noted that the downward trend is showing signs of moderating.”
    U.S. employers eliminated 467,000 jobs in June, bringing the total to 6.5 million since the recession began in December 2007, the most of any downturn since the Great Depression.
    “All districts indicated that labor markets remain slack, with most sectors either reducing jobs or holding them steady and aggregate employment continuing to decline,” the Fed said today. That weakness “has virtually eliminated upward wage pressure,” the report said.
    At the same time, the Fed said seven districts “noted selective hiring,” such as by some companies looking to snap up “experienced talent.”
    Main Rate
    Inflation, using the government’s personal consumption expenditures price index, slowed to a 0.1 percent annual pace in May from 2.6 percent in September 2007, when Bernanke and his colleagues began a series of 10 reductions in the main rate.
    “Districts reported varied -- but generally modest -- price changes across sectors and products, with competitive pressures damping increases,” the Fed said.
    Housing markets “stayed soft” in most areas, “although many noted some signs of improvement,” the report said. Lower- priced and entry-level homes “continued to perform relatively well” in part because of a first-time homebuyer tax credit.
    A gauge of U.S. house prices posted its first monthly gain in three years, while purchases of new homes in the U.S. climbed 11 percent in June, the biggest gain in eight years, reports this week showed.
    Commercial real estate has fared worse, with two-thirds of districts showing markets “weakened further” and others being “slow,” the Fed said. The outlook was “mixed,” and “tight credit” constrained construction, the report said.
    About $2.2 trillion of U.S. commercial properties bought or refinanced since 2004 are now worth less than the original price, raising the threat of more foreclosures, according to Real Capital Analytics, a New York-based research firm.
    Beige Book reference summary http://www.federalreserve.gov/fomc/b...29/default.htm
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Prepared at the Federal Reserve Bank of Boston and based on information collected on or before July 20, 2009. This document summarizes comments received from business and other contacts outside the Federal Reserve and is not a commentary on the views of Federal Reserve officials.
    Reports from the 12 Federal Reserve Districts suggest that economic activity continued to be weak going into the summer, but most Districts indicated that the pace of decline has moderated since the last report or that activity has begun to stabilize, albeit at a low level. Five Districts used the words "slow", "subdued", or "weak" to describe activity levels; Chicago and St. Louis reported that the pace of decline appeared to be moderating; and New York, Cleveland, Kansas City, and San Francisco pointed to signs of stabilization. Minneapolis said the District economy had contracted since the last report.
    Most Districts reported sluggish retail activity. Cleveland, Richmond, and Minneapolis noted further declines in sales, although results were somewhat mixed or positive according to retailers in the Boston, Philadelphia, St. Louis, Kansas City, and San Francisco Districts. Manufacturing activity showed some improvement in the Richmond, Chicago, and Kansas City Districts; while St. Louis and Dallas reported some moderation of declines; Philadelphia and Minneapolis saw activity decrease; and most other Districts indicated that manufacturing activity continued at low levels. Boston, Richmond, St. Louis, Minneapolis, and San Francisco reported contractions in services industries. Banking sectors in the New York, Cleveland, Richmond, St. Louis, Kansas City, and San Francisco Districts experienced weaker demand for some categories of loans. Residential real estate markets stayed soft in most Districts, although many noted some signs of improvement. By contrast, commercial real estate markets weakened further in recent months in two-thirds of the Districts and remained slow in the others.
    Districts reported varied--but generally modest--price changes across sectors and products, with competitive pressures damping increases; however, Boston, Cleveland, Chicago, Minneapolis, and Dallas noted that some metals prices have increased in recent months. Most Districts indicated that labor markets were extremely soft, with minimal wage pressures, and cited the use of various methods of reducing compensation in addition to, or instead of, freezing or cutting wages.
    Consumer Spending and Tourism
    Consumer spending in the early summer remained below previous-year levels in most Districts, as households continued to be price conscious. Boston, Kansas City, and San Francisco experienced either modest sales increases or less negative sales results than in recent reporting periods. Philadelphia, Atlanta, St. Louis, New York, and Dallas cited flat or mixed sales, while sales in the remaining Districts remained soft. Several Districts noted that consumers focused on purchasing less expensive necessities, while sales of big ticket items languished. Retailers in Boston, Philadelphia, and Dallas characterized their outlook as cautious.
    Auto sales were mixed across the country. Chicago, Minneapolis, and Kansas City saw modest increases in car sales, while New York, Philadelphia, Cleveland, and Atlanta continued to experience subdued sales. The exception was sales of used vehicles, which continued to be strong or were strengthening, according to Philadelphia, Cleveland, Atlanta, Kansas City, and San Francisco.
    Travel and tourism declined in the majority of Districts. The San Francisco District observed a sharp drop in luxury and business travel, while tourism activity in New York City was weak but stable since the last Beige Book report. Tourism contacts along the Atlantic coast reported that with the exception of July 4th holiday bookings, business was generally weaker than a year ago. Hotel room rates have declined in several Districts.
    Nonfinancial Services
    District reports regarding nonfinancial services industries were largely negative, although they included a few bright spots. The Minneapolis, St. Louis, and Dallas Districts indicated that demand for professional services such as business support, architecture, and legal services continued to decline or remained soft. By contrast, reports from the healthcare sector were largely positive, with the San Francisco, Minneapolis, and Richmond Districts citing steady to increased demand for medical services, and the Atlanta, Cleveland, Chicago, and Dallas Districts reporting hiring activity in health care. Technology-related firms in the Kansas City District also reported heightened activity, especially in the clean technology and defense-driven aerospace markets. Richmond and Minneapolis noted increased demand for information technology workers, and Atlanta saw hiring activity in the defense and aerospace industry. Staffing industry contacts in numerous Districts suggested a higher demand for temporary or part-time workers over permanent hires, and Atlanta noted that employers were taking advantage of a higher supply of skilled labor to improve the quality of their workforces.
    Nearly all Districts reporting on transportation services observed continued weakness. Freight transport respondents from the Atlanta, Dallas, and Cleveland Districts noted that cargo volumes remain below year-earlier levels. While Cleveland contacts reported that competitive shipping rates are being maintained, trucking contacts from the Atlanta District noted that an oversupply of trucks relative to demand has exerted downward pressure on rates. A few Districts also reported reduced airline traffic, especially amongst business travelers.
    Manufacturing
    Reports on the manufacturing sector remained subdued but were slightly more positive than in the previous Beige Book. Many Districts characterized manufacturing activity as remaining depressed but with selected signs of modest improvement. Philadelphia, Minneapolis, Atlanta, and St. Louis reported decreased manufacturing activity; however, the latter two Districts noted that the overall rate of decline abated in the latest reporting period. Richmond and Kansas City reported rising manufacturing activity, albeit chiefly in nondurables industries. Districts attributed some of the recent increases in production to replenishment of finished-goods or customer inventories.
    Chicago indicated that the quick resolutions of the Chrysler and GM bankruptcies have boosted business confidence, and that automakers were scheduling a pickup in production for July. However, ongoing shutdowns of domestic auto plants have led to precariously low business volumes for parts suppliers, according to Chicago and St. Louis. Steel production remained depressed but has leveled off or increased somewhat, according to Cleveland, Chicago, and St. Louis. Similarly, Dallas observed that refineries increased their capacity utilization slightly over the past six weeks, but that overall industry conditions remain weak because of low demand for fuels. Various District reports noted cancellations of orders for commercial aircraft and continued weak demand for most types of equipment and machinery. Among the positive developments in manufacturing, several Districts mentioned pickups in technology sectors, or cited strong or rising sales of military products or pharmaceuticals.
    Comments on the near-term outlook varied across Districts, but on the whole they appear consistent with a forecast of modest and uneven recovery in manufacturing output beginning during roughly the coming six to twelve months. New York, Philadelphia, and Atlanta indicated that manufacturers have a generally positive or improved near-term outlook. Dallas reported that high-tech manufacturers "are seeing some upside potential in their forecasts instead of just down-side risks," but that construction-related manufacturers "expect no improvement in the near term." Boston indicated that many respondents expect continued sub-par revenue numbers for the remainder of the year, but "look forward to slowly improving business in 2010," while Cleveland and Kansas City reported that manufacturing contacts expect little or no change in demand through the end of 2009.
    Real Estate and Construction
    Commercial real estate leasing markets were described as either "weak" or "slow" in all 12 Districts, although the severity of the downturn varied somewhat across Districts. While the office vacancy rate was up and rents were down in the Dallas District, market fundamentals there remained stronger than the national average. Market conditions in the New York District are significantly worse than one year ago, on average, but have been relatively stable in recent weeks and some parts of the District report improving fundamentals. Office vacancy rates continued to climb in the Atlanta, Boston, Kansas City, Minneapolis, Philadelphia, Richmond, and San Francisco Districts, as well as in Manhattan, resulting in sizable leasing concessions and/or declines in asking rents. Significant weakness in the retail leasing sector was reported for the Boston, Minneapolis, and New York Districts, and industrial vacancy increased in the Atlanta, Dallas, Minneapolis, and St. Louis Districts. Commercial real estate sales volume remained low, even "non-existent" in some Districts, reportedly due to a combination of tight credit and weak demand. Construction activity was limited and/or declining in most Districts, although exceptions were noted for health and institutional construction in the St. Louis District, public sector construction in the Chicago District, and the reconstruction of the World Trade Center in Manhattan. Tight credit was cited as an ongoing factor in the dearth of new construction activity. The commercial real estate outlook was mixed, both within and across Districts. Some contacts expect commercial real estate markets to improve within two quarters and others predict further market deterioration for the remainder of 2009 and possibly through late 2010.
    Residential real estate markets in most Districts remained weak, but many reported signs of improvement. The Minneapolis and San Francisco Districts cited large increases in home sales compared with 2008 levels, and other Districts reported rising sales in some submarkets. Of the areas that continued to experience year--over--year sales declines, all except St Louis--where sales were down steeply-- also reported that the pace of decline was moderating. In general, the low end of the market, especially entry-level homes, continued to perform relatively well; contacts in the New York, Kansas City, and Dallas Districts attributed this relative strength, at least in part, to the first--time homebuyer tax credit. Condo sales were still far below year--before levels according to the Boston and New York reports. In general, home prices continued to decline in most markets, although a number of Districts saw possible signs of stabilization. The Boston, Atlanta, and Chicago Districts mentioned that the increasing number of foreclosure sales was exerting downward pressure on home prices. Residential construction reportedly remains quite slow, with the Chicago, Cleveland, and Kansas City Districts noting that financing is difficult.
    Agriculture and Natural Resources
    The farm sector reported better weather in much of the country in June and early July. As a result, the supply and condition of many crops have improved, and prices have fallen. In the Richmond and Atlanta Districts, generally favorable weather has facilitated the vegetable, small grain or fruit harvest--much of which is in good condition. Similarly, contacts in several Districts including Chicago, St. Louis, and Kansas City indicated that the size and condition of the corn, soybean and/or rice crops have improved and that farmers are now planning to harvest more acres than previously expected; thus, prices and profits are?and for the short term are expected to remain?down. By contrast, the production of wheat or barley is expected to fall well below strong 2008 levels in the St. Louis and Minneapolis Districts. In the Dallas District, where a drought continues, much of the corn, cotton, and other crops were described as "not worth harvesting," and producers are collecting insurance.
    Livestock contacts in the Chicago, Kansas City, and Dallas Districts report that prices for dairy, hogs, and cattle have fallen by more than operating costs and some ranchers are liquidating herds. In the Chicago District, livestock operations have reportedly lost their cash cushion and have been unable to get financing; contacts in Dallas, where the ongoing drought has destroyed forage, also note concerns about ranchers' cash flow.
    With oil prices up to $70 per barrel in the first half of 2009 but recently trending down, oil production was reportedly flat in June and early July in the Cleveland, Minneapolis, and Kansas City Districts and up slightly in Dallas and San Francisco. Contacts in Atlanta indicate that the number of rigs operating in the Gulf of Mexico had fallen by half year over year while in Dallas the number of working rigs was up slightly. Natural gas prices continue to fall, discouraging drilling in the Kansas City, Dallas, and San Francisco Districts. Kansas City energy producers report financial strains and are cutting headcounts selectively, while contacts in Dallas observe much excess capacity and weak demand for energy services. In response to weak demand from the utilities, coal prices in the Cleveland District have fallen 50 percent since early 2009, and coal production, jobs and hours are down; capital spending has fallen to minimum maintenance levels. In Minneapolis, by contrast, new wind projects have been announced.
    Banking and Financial Services
    In most reporting Districts, overall lending activity was stable or weakened further for most loan categories. In contrast, Philadelphia reported a slight increase in business, consumer, and residential real estate lending. As businesses remained pessimistic and reluctant to borrow, demand for commercial and industrial loans continued to fall or stay weak in the New York, Richmond, St. Louis, Kansas City, Dallas, and San Francisco Districts. Consumer loan demand decreased in New York, St. Louis, Kansas City, and San Francisco, stabilized at a low level in Chicago and Dallas, and was steady to up in Cleveland.
    Residential real estate lending decreased in New York, Richmond, and St. Louis. Dallas reported steady but low outstanding mortgage volumes, while Kansas City noted that the rise in mortgage loans slowed. Refinancing activity fell dramatically in Richmond, decreased in New York and Cleveland, and maintained its pace in Dallas. Bankers in the New York District indicated no change in delinquency rates in all loan categories except residential mortgages, while Cleveland, Atlanta, and San Francisco reported rising delinquencies on loans linked to real estate.
    Banks continued to tighten credit standards in the New York, Philadelphia, Richmond, Chicago, Kansas City, Dallas, and San Francisco Districts; and some have stepped up the requirements for the commercial real estate category, in particular, due to concern over declining loan quality. Meanwhile, Cleveland and Atlanta reported that higher credit standards remained in place, with no change expected in the near term. Credit quality deteriorated in Philadelphia, Cleveland, Kansas City, and San Francisco, while loan quality exceeded expectations in Chicago and remained steady in Richmond.
    Employment, Wages, and Prices
    All Districts indicated that labor markets remain slack, with most sectors either reducing jobs or holding them steady and aggregate employment continuing to decline, on net. However, Boston, Cleveland, Richmond, Atlanta, Chicago, St. Louis, and Minneapolis noted selective hiring, including attempts by some firms to take advantage of layoffs elsewhere to pick up experienced talent. Richmond, Chicago, St. Louis, and Dallas cited moderation in the pace of manufacturing employment decline since the last report, and New York noted some signs of labor market stabilization. But Atlanta reported further deterioration in labor market conditions and additional job cuts already planned for coming months.
    The weakness of labor markets has virtually eliminated upward wage pressure, and wages and compensation are steady or falling in most Districts; however, Boston cited some manufacturing and business services firms raising pay selectively, and Minneapolis said wage increases were moderate. Boston, Cleveland, Richmond, Chicago, Dallas, and San Francisco cited a range of methods firms are using to limit compensation, including cutting or freezing wages or benefit contributions, deferral of future salary increases, trimming bonuses and travel allowances, reducing hours, temporary shutdowns, periodic furloughs, and unpaid vacations.
    Most Districts reported that upward price pressures were minimal. Manufacturers in the Boston, Philadelphia, Atlanta, Minneapolis, Kansas City, and Dallas Districts indicated that most materials costs were flat or down; however, several Districts mentioned price increases for some metals, petrochemicals, and building materials. While the Boston, New York, and Kansas City reports say a few firms are making modest price increases stick, selling prices of most manufacturers and retailers were reportedly held down by competitive pressures. Services firms have increased discounting and/or cut fees, according to contacts in Boston, Philadelphia, Atlanta, Dallas, and San Francisco, while Richmond indicated price increases for services were mild.


    full version found here http://www.federalreserve.gov/fomc/b...FullReport.htm

    Comments?

  2. #2
    s.rwitt's Avatar Shamb Conspiracy Member
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    Default Re: US Economc Decline Slowing

    Hopefully it'll continue, in spite of whatever Obama has in store next.

  3. #3

    Default Re: US Economc Decline Slowing

    Quote Originally Posted by s.rwitt View Post
    Hopefully it'll continue, in spite of whatever Obama has in store next.
    Hopefully anything other than tax increases and more government programs and regulations.

  4. #4

    Default Re: US Economc Decline Slowing

    Quote Originally Posted by s.rwitt View Post
    Hopefully it'll continue, in spite of whatever Obama has in store next.
    The slowing of the decline or the decline of the economy ? ?


    =o

  5. #5
    s.rwitt's Avatar Shamb Conspiracy Member
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    Default Re: US Economc Decline Slowing

    The slowing of the decline or the decline of the economy ? ?
    The slowing of the decline of course.

  6. #6
    Last Roman's Avatar ron :wub:in swanson
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    Default Re: US Economc Decline Slowing

    Quote Originally Posted by s.rwitt View Post
    The slowing of the decline of course.
    heh, I actually wasn't so sure myself, given your attitudes towards the prez
    house of Rububula, under the patronage of Nihil, patron of Hotspur, David Deas, Freddie, Askthepizzaguy and Ketchfoop
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  7. #7

    Default Re: US Economc Decline Slowing

    Quote Originally Posted by s.rwitt View Post
    The slowing of the decline of course.
    I mis-interpreted your post


    But now Im sure what it meant.

  8. #8
    s.rwitt's Avatar Shamb Conspiracy Member
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    Default Re: US Economc Decline Slowing

    Just because I dislike the President doesn't mean I want to see my country suffer just so he fails at something. That was one of the things that disgusted me the most about people when Bush was in office. Especially Dem Senators.

  9. #9
    Erik's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: US Economc Decline Slowing

    Quote Originally Posted by nopasties View Post
    Comments?
    Is it that time of month already?

    At the current pace, the "begin of the end" for the depression will be announced more often than the "begin of the end" for the Iraq war.



  10. #10
    s.rwitt's Avatar Shamb Conspiracy Member
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    Default Re: US Economc Decline Slowing

    Says the guy who claimed the drop in violence following the surge would be 'temporary'.

  11. #11

    Default Re: US Economc Decline Slowing

    Yes, the signs of recovery are all over. From the slowing unemployment rate, to business profits, to stocks, to new housing, things are definitely looking up. It may soon be time to get out of cash/gold/t-bills once the Fed pushes rates up.

    I guess the question is whether this Obama stimulus deserves credit or not? Perhaps for the short term (even though most of the money has not yet been spent). But the final analysis will require a decade. We've already suffered decades of inflation, not in the form of consumer prices, but instead hidden the form of public debt and health care. Now we are in a deflationary period, where several trillion dollars of bank-created "money" have simply evaporated. To mitigate this, the government is injecting a fraction of this lost money in to the deflated system to keep the pluming working.

    If Obama's stimulus package is helping, then Bush's bailout also deserves some credit.
    "fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts." -Bertrand Russel

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  12. #12
    Talbaz's Avatar Biarchus
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    Default Re: US Economc Decline Slowing

    The New Deal didn't fix the Depression because throwing money at a problem never works, Beside World War II got us out of depression when we spend all that money........
    quotes that have amused me
    "When I was a kid, I used to pray every night for a new bike. Then I realised that the lord doesn't work that way...So I stole one and asked him to forgive me."

  13. #13
    s.rwitt's Avatar Shamb Conspiracy Member
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    Default Re: US Economc Decline Slowing

    If Obama's stimulus package is helping, then Bush's bailout also deserves some credit.
    The way I see it the economy is starting to rebound because that's what our economy does. It's called a balloon economy for a reason and recessions are a part of that, but in the end it is actually more stable. In my oppinion the economy isn't improving because of Obama's 'stimulus' package or Bush's bailout, but in spite of them.

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    YuriVII's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: US Economc Decline Slowing

    So its clear, we need more wars to get us out of the recession.

  15. #15
    Gertrudius's Avatar Hans Olo
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    Default Re: US Economc Decline Slowing

    Quote Originally Posted by Talbaz View Post
    The New Deal didn't fix the Depression because throwing money at a problem never works, Beside World War II got us out of depression when we spend all that money........
    While I agree that the New Deal wasn't worth , something many economists agree on, there is no direct evidence suggesting that the war pulled us out of the depression. As a matter of fact the Great Depression ended for the US in '33. there was just that spat in '37 that barely interrupted a precipitous rise in employment rates.

    Hell, at least read the Wiki articles on the subject before making such ludicrous statements, because as we all know, correlation does not equate to causation. In this case it's not even corollary. I'll even provide links for you. Here, and Here.

    Take it easy,

  16. #16

    Default Re: US Economc Decline Slowing

    Quote Originally Posted by nopasties View Post
    The source of the data seems to be the Federal Reserve, let's have a look at their past economic predictions from 2005-2007:


    more info here

    When their predictions have been so terribly wrong in the past are you still going to believe their predictions now!?

  17. #17
    nopasties's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: US Economc Decline Slowing

    Quote Originally Posted by Generaal Van Heutsz View Post
    The source of the data seems to be the Federal Reserve, let's have a look at their past economic predictions from 2005-2007:
    When their predictions have been so terribly wrong in the past are you still going to believe their predictions now!?
    I do not believe what the Fed says. It is a topic and I supplied the links to the data. No one else has reliable data to counter the Fed in such a short time.

  18. #18

    Default Re: US Economc Decline Slowing

    Quote Originally Posted by nopasties View Post
    I do not believe what the Fed says. It is a topic and I supplied the links to the data. No one else has reliable data to counter the Fed in such a short time.
    Well basically the data supplied is worthless to determine the health of the economy. GDP does not measure anything except money changing hands, services goods produced and consumed, destruction of capital, they all show up as an increase of GDP. Since 2006 the FED doesn't publish the real inflation anymore (ie M3 money supply) but instead tells you some manipulated statistic of the effects of inflation (ie the consumer price index, CPI or core inflation). When the data is worthless to start with, you have to reason. The cause of this recession was that the money supply increased sharply, causing a housing bubble prompting people to take an extra mortgage on their homes and consume the extra money, this stimulated the services and retail sectors of the economy also causing a huge trade deficit and giant debt. So this means a lot has been invested in sectors of the economy which were really not viable but only seemed viable because of the excess money available.

    Now do you believe that all those bad investments have been liquidated already and that people stopped working in all those non-viable sectors of the economy and moved on to viable ones (where stuff is actually being produced)? I don't even think a start has been made but instead the stimulus kept things like they were before and the economy (ie those useless statistics) may appear to improve but that in actual effect the disease of the economy (ie. overconsumption, undersaving and underproduction) are still continuing.

  19. #19
    nopasties's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: US Economc Decline Slowing

    Quote Originally Posted by Generaal Van Heutsz View Post
    Well basically the data supplied is worthless to determine the health of the economy. GDP does not measure anything except money changing hands, services goods produced and consumed, destruction of capital, they all show up as an increase of GDP. Since 2006 the FED doesn't publish the real inflation anymore (ie M3 money supply) but instead tells you some manipulated statistic of the effects of inflation (ie the consumer price index, CPI or core inflation). When the data is worthless to start with, you have to reason. The cause of this recession was that the money supply increased sharply, causing a housing bubble prompting people to take an extra mortgage on their homes and consume the extra money, this stimulated the services and retail sectors of the economy also causing a huge trade deficit and giant debt. So this means a lot has been invested in sectors of the economy which were really not viable but only seemed viable because of the excess money available.

    Now do you believe that all those bad investments have been liquidated already and that people stopped working in all those non-viable sectors of the economy and moved on to viable ones (where stuff is actually being produced)? I don't even think a start has been made but instead the stimulus kept things like they were before and the economy (ie those useless statistics) may appear to improve but that in actual effect the disease of the economy (ie. overconsumption, undersaving and underproduction) are still continuing.
    I have no specialty in economics, I have never even taken a class in economics. Anything I know is from reading in my free time. I'd have to get back to you in a few months to answer those questions well.

    The Fed unfortunately is not an objective and independent agency. All of their stats are not objective and independent. I'm just trying to spur a conversation. I have read your posts in other relative threads and understand you are set against the Feds policy. Understand it and generally agree with you. Realistically I feel we will be pulled into some bad consequences of what is going on with these topics but this is going to be an historical reminder that we do not learn from history. The policies you advocate if they are correct will not be followed until after a great depression occurs. I hope you are wrong but I do respect your constant trumpeting. Unfortunately it shuts down debate sometimes. That is all I'm saying.

  20. #20

    Default Re: US Economc Decline Slowing

    Quote Originally Posted by nopasties View Post
    I have no specialty in economics, I have never even taken a class in economics. Anything I know is from reading in my free time. I'd have to get back to you in a few months to answer those questions well.

    The Fed unfortunately is not an objective and independent agency. All of their stats are not objective and independent. I'm just trying to spur a conversation. I have read your posts in other relative threads and understand you are set against the Feds policy. Understand it and generally agree with you. Realistically I feel we will be pulled into some bad consequences of what is going on with these topics but this is going to be an historical reminder that we do not learn from history. The policies you advocate if they are correct will not be followed until after a great depression occurs. I hope you are wrong but I do respect your constant trumpeting. Unfortunately it shuts down debate sometimes. That is all I'm saying.

    Argh I typed a very long post replying to it and when I wanted to sent it I got logged off and the post was lost

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