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    boofhead's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Christians and Pork - An Explanation for Those who have been Lied to.

    I keep hearing on TWC, and it seems to be only some muslims who say this, that Christians don't follow their own book with regards to dietary restrictions, especially regarding eating pork. Christians, I am told, are either selective in their application, or lazy, or just warm fuzzy feeling people who don't care about how the Bible tells us to live.

    This is wrong, and this is A LIE.

    Let me please educate you, by means of verses taken directly from what Christians believe to be the Word of God, on exactly how Christians are instructed with regards to diet. Feel free to cross check any verses I give. They are all there, and will thoroughly disprove this malicious lie once and for all.

    So what does the Bible tell Christians about diet?

    *Here is the general principle:

    1Tim4:1-6. 1The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. 2Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. 3They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth. 4For everything God created is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, 5because it is consecrated by the word of God and prayer.

    6If you point these things out to the brothers, you will be a good minister of Christ Jesus, brought up in the truths of the faith and of the good teaching that you have followed. 7Have nothing to do with godless myths and old wives' tales; rather, train yourself to be godly.
    So, beware of future religious or spiritual ideas that promote dietary restrictions. And all foods are to be accepted if received with thanksgiving, and thus sanctified.

    *Further verses

    Mark 7:18–19 (NKJV)

    18 So He said to them, “Are you thus without understanding also? Do you not perceive that whatever enters a man from outside cannot defile him, 19 because it does not enter his heart but his stomach, and is eliminated, thus purifying all foods?”
    Romans 14:14 (NKJV)

    14 I know and am convinced by the Lord Jesus that there is nothing unclean of itself; but to him who considers anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean.
    1 Corinthians 10:23-31

    23"Everything is permissible"—but not everything is beneficial. "Everything is permissible"—but not everything is constructive. 24Nobody should seek his own good, but the good of others.

    25Eat anything sold in the meat market without raising questions of conscience, 26for, "The earth is the Lord's, and everything in it."[c]

    27If some unbeliever invites you to a meal and you want to go, eat whatever is put before you without raising questions of conscience. 28But if anyone says to you, "This has been offered in sacrifice," then do not eat it, both for the sake of the man who told you and for conscience' sake[d]— 29the other man's conscience, I mean, not yours. For why should my freedom be judged by another's conscience? 30If I take part in the meal with thankfulness, why am I denounced because of something I thank God for?

    31So whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God. 32Do not cause anyone to stumble, whether Jews, Greeks or the church of God— 33even as I try to please everybody in every way. For I am not seeking my own good but the good of many, so that they may be saved.
    Revelation 2:14 (NKJV)

    14 But I have a few things against you, because you have there those who hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balak to put a stumbling block before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed to idols, and to commit sexual immorality.
    Romans 14:13-23

    13Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother's way. 14As one who is in the Lord Jesus, [B]I am fully convinced that no food is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for him it is unclean. 15If your brother is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy your brother for whom Christ died. 16Do not allow what you consider good to be spoken of as evil. 17For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, 18because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men.

    19Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification. 20Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a man to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble. 21It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother to fall.

    22So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the man who does not condemn himself by what he approves. 23But the man who has doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin.
    1 Corinthians 8:4-13

    4So then, about eating food sacrificed to idols: We know that an idol is nothing at all in the world and that there is no God but one. 5For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many "gods" and many "lords"), 6yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

    7But not everyone knows this. Some people are still so accustomed to idols that when they eat such food they think of it as having been sacrificed to an idol, and since their conscience is weak, it is defiled. 8But food does not bring us near to God; we are no worse if we do not eat, and no better if we do.

    9Be careful, however, that the exercise of your freedom does not become a stumbling block to the weak. 10For if anyone with a weak conscience sees you who have this knowledge eating in an idol's temple, won't he be emboldened to eat what has been sacrificed to idols? 11So this weak brother, for whom Christ died, is destroyed by your knowledge. 12When you sin against your brothers in this way and wound their weak conscience, you sin against Christ. 13Therefore, if what I eat causes my brother to fall into sin, I will never eat meat again, so that I will not cause him to fall.
    *OK, a fair few passages there, and none of which forbids the eating of pork - or anything at all for that matter. There are some verses in the New Testament which advise telling non-Jews to abstain from meat still with blood, or strangled animals; however that can be taken in context of the ''not causing your brother to sin'' exhortations in the above verses - as most early Christians were Jews - this was about their sensitivities, not the inherent impurity of the food.

    *So in conclusion: this rumour among muslims about Christians is wrong, and it is a LIE.

    When it comes to food for the Christian - ALL FOOD is sanctified by the Word of God, and the person's prayers of thanksgiving. The only exceptions are (1) when it is food sacrificed to idols or demons or (2) when fellowship with brothers is in jeopardy.

    *One final thought for you guys on this matter:

    1 Corinthians 10:30 (NKJV)

    30 But if I partake with thanks, why am I evil spoken of for the food over which I give thanks?
    I hope that clears some things up.

  2. #2
    Ummon's Avatar Indefinitely Banned
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    Default Re: Christians and Pork - An Explanation for Those who have been Lied to.

    That is why I do not subscribe vegetarianism. The problem is very complicated, but the devil can be very wise and enlightened.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Christians and Pork - An Explanation for Those who have been Lied to.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ummon View Post
    That is why I do not subscribe vegetarianism. The problem is very complicated, but the devil can be very wise and enlightened.
    You know what they say,

    "The devil is in the bacon."
    "When I die, I want to die peacefully in my sleep, like Fidel Castro, not screaming in terror, like his victims."

    My shameful truth.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Christians and Pork - An Explanation for Those who have been Lied to.

    Hey look. Totally leaving out the Old Testament and more picking and choosing. That so makes that 'selective' denial really ironic.

    Why IS the old testament a part of the Bible if you can just ignore it again?
    One thing is for certain: the more profoundly baffled you have been in your life, the more open your mind becomes to new ideas.
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    Let's think the unthinkable, let's do the undoable. Let us prepare to grapple with the ineffable itself, and see if we may not eff it after all.

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    MaximiIian's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Christians and Pork - An Explanation for Those who have been Lied to.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidin View Post
    Why IS the old testament a part of the Bible if you can just ignore it again?
    Historical reasons, I suppose. It is the basis of their later texts and religion, even though parts of it are (justifiably and rightly so) ignored. It establishes some certain things that, while not strictly applicable today, were at one time parts of Christianity; and to be better understand Christianity's history is to better understand Christianity today.

    Or would you rather them follow the Old Testament to the letter, then?

  6. #6

    Default Re: Christians and Pork - An Explanation for Those who have been Lied to.

    Quote Originally Posted by MaximiIian View Post

    Or would you rather them follow the Old Testament to the letter, then?
    Hey it's all in the claims that dietary instructions are in the Bible....*Bible*. And then he posts a dozen scriptures from the NT and only the NT. And totally ignores the OT, in which we know there are doezens of dietary laws, and the OT, last I checked, is part of the *Bible*.
    One thing is for certain: the more profoundly baffled you have been in your life, the more open your mind becomes to new ideas.
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    Let's think the unthinkable, let's do the undoable. Let us prepare to grapple with the ineffable itself, and see if we may not eff it after all.

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    boofhead's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: Christians and Pork - An Explanation for Those who have been Lied to.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidin View Post
    Hey it's all in the claims that dietary instructions are in the Bible....*Bible*. And then he posts a dozen scriptures from the NT and only the NT. And totally ignores the OT, in which we know there are doezens of dietary laws, and the OT, last I checked, is part of the *Bible*.
    You don't understand the antonyms ''old'' and ''new''???? It's a concept understood by 2 year olds.

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    Default Re: Christians and Pork - An Explanation for Those who have been Lied to.

    Quote Originally Posted by boofhead View Post
    You don't understand the antonyms ''old'' and ''new''???? It's a concept understood by 2 year olds.

    This does not answer any sort of hippocricy implied because of contradictions between the Old and New Testament, and both being present in the Christian Bibles.

    They are supposed to come from the same God, Abrahams, so why would God change his mind all of a sudden?

    Perhaps he forsaw Jesus' human flaws and inherent desire to consume a pound of bacon every sunday morning and all of a sudden decided to take it easy on mankind since his son was part of the group now?



    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    Not eating pork yourself is a question of your choice but when you advise others not to eat it then it becomes more than that. So may I ask why you advise others not to eat it?
    If I advise you not to take I75 south to work today because some Iranian Immigrant who just got his license a month ago and doens't know how to drive crashed in to a tractor trailer pulling a fuel tanker causing it to flip and it happened to be right underneath the 9mile overpass bridge, causing a massive fireball explosive, that heated and expanded the steel support girders causing a rapid decline in the structural integrity of the concrete bridge thereby collapsing it down on to the freeway.. . .

    . . . it's just advice. Educated advice. Nothing more.

    If I go to the length to say "Don't take I75 south to work or you will go to hell", well, thats something different and ceases to just be advice.

    Pigs are filthy though but even if I looked at it underneath a microscope and ecoli waved back to me, I'd still be eating bacon. Something so delicious HAS to be the work of the devil!

    I've read accounts, of people who claim to have experienced a cleansing of their body and ailments through eliminating pork from their diet. Not saying I buy it, but it is a thought and perhaps a simple experiment to try by oneself. They've claimed to have eliminated constant migraine problems, blemishes, even depression. . . . naturally this could very well be tied to biological processes, not saying that the devil left them because they weren't eating pork any more.

    Interesting thoughts though.
    Last edited by uos_spo6; August 11, 2009 at 10:53 AM.
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    boofhead's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: Christians and Pork - An Explanation for Those who have been Lied to.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidin View Post
    Hey look. Totally leaving out the Old Testament and more picking and choosing. That so makes that 'selective' denial really ironic.

    Why IS the old testament a part of the Bible if you can just ignore it again?
    Oh for 's sake why don't you read the New Testament yourself where it all becomes quite obvious? It's not about ignoring the Old Testament - THERE ARE NO CHRISTIANS IN THE OLD TESTAMENT! The Old Testament dietary restrictions are the customary JEWISH LAWS, prescribed for the Jews by God! It contains prophesy about the coming Christ, and many gems of wisdom about the nature of God. It is important to Christians, but the Jewish Laws, for his Chosen People, are not for Christians!

    The New Testament is. It is not for the Jews - it is for Jews who become Christians and Gentiles. i.e. Amazonian pygmies, Inuit, whoever.

    Sheesh I might just write another one of these threads for you guys who keep saying that BS.

    Please, have some understanding before you run your mouth off in complete ignorance.

    EDIT: Gaidin, read Luke 24:44 for a small hint.
    Last edited by boofhead; July 29, 2009 at 09:13 AM.

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    Tankbuster's Avatar Analogy Nazi
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    Default Re: Christians and Pork - An Explanation for Those who have been Lied to.

    Quote Originally Posted by boofhead View Post
    The New Testament is. It is not for the Jews - it is for Jews who become Christians and Gentiles. i.e. Amazonian pygmies, Inuit, whoever.

    Sheesh I might just write another one of these threads for you guys who keep saying that BS.

    Please, have some understanding before you run your mouth off in complete ignorance.

    EDIT: Gaidin, read Luke 24:44 for a small hint.
    The problem with this is not what the Bible says, but the fact that the Old Testament has been used for centuries on end to justify the burning of witches, slavery,...
    And of course, the Old Testament is also used for the story of Adam and Eve (literally or non-literally), Noah's Ark, many still use it to give Israel legitimacy, etcetera etcetera.

    Even to this day, Christians often fall back on the Old Testament (most notably in the homosexuality debates). Apparently, they do still think that it has validity, the same way most Christians thought it did for hundreds of years.

    That's what we have a problem with. If you use it for hundreds of years, and many of your co-believers still use it to this day, then asserting that "It's not aimed at Christians" just doesn't have all that much credibility.
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    boofhead's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: Christians and Pork - An Explanation for Those who have been Lied to.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tankbuster View Post
    The problem with this is not what the Bible says, but the fact that the Old Testament has been used for centuries on end to justify the burning of witches, slavery,...
    Yes, by powermongers misleading the largely illiterate. Thank God for Protestantism, when men could actually read the Bible in their own language and spread the truth of its pages rather than the lies from the pulpit.

    Even to this day, Christians often fall back on the Old Testament (most notably in the homosexuality debates). Apparently, they do still think that it has validity, the same way most Christians thought it did for hundreds of years.
    It does have 100% validity for Christians, but not in the sense that a Christian is to deal with God in the manner of the Jews. The New Testament supercedes all those traditional rituals. The Jews will be judged according to the Law still to this day - Christians will not be judged by them. As far as homosexuality, it is condemned in the New testament as well, so I really don't see why that is an OT issue.

    That's what we have a problem with. If you use it for hundreds of years, and many of your co-believers still use it to this day, then asserting that "It's not aimed at Christians" just doesn't have all that much credibility.
    I read the OT all the time and I believe it. But I'm not Jewish, so I didn't feel the need to cut the foreskin off my male child's penis when he was born.

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    Tankbuster's Avatar Analogy Nazi
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    Default Re: Christians and Pork - An Explanation for Those who have been Lied to.

    Quote Originally Posted by boofhead View Post
    Yes, by powermongers misleading the largely illiterate. Thank God for Protestantism, when men could actually read the Bible in their own language and spread the truth of its pages rather than the lies from the pulpit.
    The problems weren't exactly over when protestantism came about, but yes, it was a heroic struggle.
    Quote Originally Posted by boofhead View Post
    It does have 100% validity for Christians, but not in the sense that a Christian is to deal with God in the manner of the Jews. The New Testament supercedes all those traditional rituals. The Jews will be judged according to the Law still to this day - Christians will not be judged by them. As far as homosexuality, it is condemned in the New testament as well, so I really don't see why that is an OT issue.
    So jews are still obliged to stone adulterers and disobedient children, but christians are somehow spared this ordeal?
    Quote Originally Posted by boofhead View Post
    I read the OT all the time and I believe it. But I'm not Jewish, so I didn't feel the need to cut the foreskin off my male child's penis when he was born.
    Good. I think that's a crime.
    The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath
    --- Mark 2:27

    Atheism is simply a way of clearing the space for better conservations.
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  13. #13

    Default Re: Christians and Pork - An Explanation for Those who have been Lied to.

    Quote Originally Posted by boofhead View Post
    Yes, by powermongers misleading the largely illiterate. Thank God for Protestantism, when men could actually read the Bible in their own language and spread the truth of its pages rather than the lies from the pulpit.

    O yes because Protestantism doesn't have it's full share of powermongering persons. Come down off your high horse mate and get into the scrum with the rest of us.

    It also appears that the first set of verses in the original post of the topic support gay marriage among other things. Funny that. Time to print that set of verses in large block letters and post it in the sky for everyone. Sure you will probably tell me that it has to do with intermarriage between believers and non-believers etc. However that just makes you a 'hypocritical liar' as the verse says. Believe me if I can twist your verse to support a cause that I don't care about then obviously it is easy enough to twist that verse(and others)to support anything. That being said I agree with you about the eating pork part.
    Last edited by Ciabhán; July 29, 2009 at 11:59 AM.

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    Default Re: Christians and Pork - An Explanation for Those who have been Lied to.

    [QUOTE=boofhead;5665258]Yes, by powermongers misleading the largely illiterate. Thank God for Protestantism, when men could actually read the Bible in their own language and spread the truth of its pages rather than the lies from the pulpit.

    QUOTE]
    Orthodox christians could always read the Bible in their own language.
    Optio, Legio I Latina

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    Default Re: Christians and Pork - An Explanation for Those who have been Lied to.

    Quote Originally Posted by boofhead View Post
    Yes, by powermongers misleading the largely illiterate. Thank God for Protestantism, when men could actually read the Bible in their own language and spread the truth of its pages rather than the lies from the pulpit.
    Yes, yay for Protestantism! And as people were being burnt as witches by Protestants I bet they were saying "Hooray that these fanatics can read Exodus 22:18 and Leviticus 20:27 in their own language!" I hate to break it to you boof, but the witch craze was a predominately Protestant affair. And the main use of the Bible to justify slavery (Genesis 9:25-27) was in the Protestant southern states of the US. For example:

    "[Slavery] was established by decree of Almighty God...it is sanctioned in the Bible, in both Testaments, from Genesis to Revelation...it has existed in all ages, has been found among the people of the highest civilization, and in nations of the highest proficiency in the arts."
    Jefferson Davis, President of the Confederate States of America.

    "There is not one verse in the Bible inhibiting slavery, but many regulating it. It is not then, we conclude, immoral."
    Rev. Alexander Campbell

    "The doom of Ham has been branded on the form and features of his African descendants. The hand of fate has united his color and destiny. Man cannot separate what God hath joined."
    United States Senator James Henry Hammond.

    So what were you saying about Protestantism again?

    PS Just this morning I was reading a Middle English translation of the Gospel of Matthew, owned by a Fourteenth Century London merchant. If people before Protestantism couldn't read the Bible in their own language, how is it that I have editions of several Biblical books in Old and Middle English on my shelves? It seems something else yer Sunday School teacher done gone told yer is ... ummm ... wrong.

  16. #16

    Default Re: Christians and Pork - An Explanation for Those who have been Lied to.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidin View Post
    Hey look. Totally leaving out the Old Testament and more picking and choosing. That so makes that 'selective' denial really ironic.

    Why IS the old testament a part of the Bible if you can just ignore it again?
    Didn't even Jesus say the Old Testament was unnecessary? I could be wrong.
    Forget the Cod this man needs a Sturgeon!

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    CtrlAltDe1337's Avatar Praepositus
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    Default Re: Christians and Pork - An Explanation for Those who have been Lied to.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidin View Post
    Hey look. Totally leaving out the Old Testament and more picking and choosing. That so makes that 'selective' denial really ironic.

    Why IS the old testament a part of the Bible if you can just ignore it again?
    We don't live under the law anymore, so we don't have to follow it. Jesus fulfilled the law, ending it, so all the old ceremonies are no longer in force. Else we should still be Jews.


  18. #18

    Default Re: Christians and Pork - An Explanation for Those who have been Lied to.

    Quote Originally Posted by CtrlAltDe1337 View Post
    We don't live under the law anymore, so we don't have to follow it. Jesus fulfilled the law, ending it, so all the old ceremonies are no longer in force. Else we should still be Jews.
    Tankbuster addressed this. If you'd like to make this statement about yourself that's all well and good, but there are still all sorts of churches out there that use the OT laws as reasons why things shouldn't be done. Making this statement about Christianity in general is not the brightest thing to do. And then they pick and choose which laws they like and which laws they don't. Which, as boofhead(and you) missed, is the heart of the problem.
    One thing is for certain: the more profoundly baffled you have been in your life, the more open your mind becomes to new ideas.
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  19. #19

    Default Re: Christians and Pork - An Explanation for Those who have been Lied to.

    Gaidin, most christians would agree with paul in that the bible is not up for private interpretation, hence why the people who randomly pick and choose are wrong.

    also, boofhead:

    "Christians, I am told, are either selective in their application, or lazy, or just warm fuzzy feeling people who don't care about how the Bible tells us to live.

    This is wrong, and this is A LIE."

    That is a lie. Should read "most Christians", whereupon it would be absolutely true.

  20. #20
    magpie's Avatar Artifex
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    Default Re: Christians and Pork - An Explanation for Those who have been Lied to.

    Well in my opinion jesus was the martin luther of the jewish faith. He wanted major changes to the rules people lived by in those times. His followers wrote up the new testament based on his teachings.
    Dietary restrictions for a new faith which had to convert many different beliefs to the cause, would have had a much harder time of it banning food types.
    I think some food like pork was a bit dodgy in hot climates, so this may have led to its ban by some religions from those area,s.Also they may not have been great at certain types of food preperation.

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