Christians, Faith, and Facts

[Dr. Oza]

whenever i debate with a overzealous christian trying to convert me, i always point out historical facts pointing at christianity's corruption, like the council of Nicae, like that fact that before paul, no christian records show anything to do with trinity, like that fact that along with Christmas, trinity seems to be a notion implemented to appease and easily transition the conversion of pagans, like that fact that the bible's original translations are lost, like that fact that Christians today ignore whatever parts of the bible they dont feel nice about, like not eating pork.

whenver i confront a christian with this, they merely say that they have FAITH that the bible is true.. etc.. but i cannot see how people can be so ignorant to factual data

as a muslim, i would not believe merely by faith, that is something not to be given lightly, but to be earned, for example i have seen the miracles of the quran and have believed, such as the explanation of how mountains form, the structure of the solar system, sperm and eggs, and many more, as well as prophezations that have been proven as history goes on, and thus i have faith in the rest of the quran, that and the fact that the earliest quran dating 10 years after muhammad is word for word same as the ones today.

i would like to know how christians would response to this...

do you merely believe based on faith, or do you have a justification for the things i pointed out in the first paragraph

[manofarms89]

the bible should not be taken literally, neither should the koran

[Fiyenyaa]

the bible should not be taken literally, neither should the koran

I think if someone followed either book literally to the letter, even the Taliban would consider such a person a fundamentalist.

[manofarms89]

I think if someone followed either book literally to the letter, even the Taliban would consider such a person a fundamentalist.

i am glad we can agree

[Hiero of Syracuse]

Actually the majority of the information that was so called revealed in the Qu'ran was already revealed knoweldge, Greeks knew the world was round, people knew that sperm makes babies and that mountains formed by paltes...the Qu'ran offered nothing new so to speak. You do realize that the Christian god is aslo the muslim god right, because people of Islam are notoriously famous for leaving out things they don't like. You seem to be a fanatical muslim, due to the fact that you have an overdeveloped sense of self righteousness, Christianity may have a bad history but just cause a muslim disctator can't kill as many people due to inefficiency doesn't mean they are equally as bad.

Tell me do you think that the dictators of Islamic faith would stop at however many kills they were able to accomplish no, they just couldn't do it on the same level as Hitler because they weren't as efficient.
Islam also is used to justify evils like Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, and Pakistan...they too have morphed the faith to fit their culture just not the Catholics. Do you really believe that Afghan laws that are patriatcal are really Islamic they aren't because the ideoly isn't the same as it was one thousand years ago. You may have a similar book that predates that time but you muslims are nothing like the great ones of the past.

[Dr. Oza]

Actually the majority of the information that was so called revealed in the Qu'ran was already revealed knoweldge, Greeks knew the world was round, people knew that sperm makes babies and that mountains formed by paltes...the Qu'ran offered nothing new so to speak. You do realize that the Christian god is aslo the muslim god right, because people of Islam are notoriously famous for leaving out things they don't like. You seem to be a fanatical muslim, due to the fact that you have an overdeveloped sense of self righteousness, Christianity may have a bad history but just cause a muslim disctator can't kill as many people due to inefficiency doesn't mean they are equally as bad.

Tell me do you think that the dictators of Islamic faith would stop at however many kills they were able to accomplish no, they just couldn't do it on the same level as Hitler because they weren't as efficient.
Islam also is used to justify evils like Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, and Pakistan...they too have morphed the faith to fit their culture just not the Catholics. Do you really believe that Afghan laws that are patriatcal are really Islamic they aren't because the ideoly isn't the same as it was one thousand years ago. You may have a similar book that predates that time but you muslims are nothing like the great ones of the past.

i now that the bible is the book of god, and that jesus is a prophet as well, but the bible has been corrupted, which i believe i have already stated in my first post

what does this have to do with killing?, please reread my post

i do not support those people or countries you posted, and i am not blaming the bible or christianity for anything, i was merely asking how christians believe what they do without proof...


and aside from the world being round, which anyone who had a sense of logic would figure out, can you show me other people in the time period or before that knew about sperm and eggs, and about tetonic plates...

in the quranic chapter(sura) "The Romans", which was revealed early in muhammad's prophethood, it said that the romans (byzantines) believed in god, and so would defeat the sassanids, to simplify, at the time, the sassanids had made the greatest advance in their history against the byzantines
:
and the meccans used this to show the quran wasnt true, but soon after, a couple of decisive victories that no one expected, and against all odds, the sassanids were pushed back to iran... btw, this was in 620

here is the chapter from the quran, if you read the first few lines, you'll see what i am referring to
http://www.muslimaccess.com/quraan/arabic/030.asp

---
how about the council of nicae, what do you have to say about that?


and i said NOTHING about taking anything literally, has anyone read my original post?

[Tankbuster]

Summary of the canons decided upon by the council of Nicaea

Nooooooooo

how about the council of nicae, what do you have to say about that?

Unless you have some ground-breaking and mind-boggling discoveries that have been made in the last few days, I'd advise you to steer away from the Council of Niceae. We've been over this 'Da Vinci Code'-crap a couple of times already, and it's getting old.

in the quranic chapter(sura) "The Romans", which was revealed early in muhammad's prophethood, it said that the romans (byzantines) believed in god, and so would defeat the sassanids, to simplify, at the time, the sassanids had made the greatest advance in their history against the byzantines
:
and the meccans used this to show the quran wasnt true, but soon after, a couple of decisive victories that no one expected, and against all odds, the sassanids were pushed back to iran... btw, this was in 620

here is the chapter from the quran, if you read the first few lines, you'll see what i am referring to
http://www.muslimaccess.com/quraan/arabic/030.asp

Yeah, I've seen this one before.
The Sassanids had expanded way too fast in their campaign. Was it such a surprise that this overstretching would eventually lead to a big set-back and a counter-offensive of the strong Byzantine Empire?
Anyone with a bit of political and military insight could have 'predicted' this.

[cfmonkey45]

Nooooooooo

Noooooo, what?


That page was a translation of what happened, and it was the establishment of the Nicene creed.

[Tankbuster]

Noooooo, what?


That page was a translation of what happened, and it was the establishment of the Nicene creed.

That is a topic that screams for conspiracy theorists and Dan-Brown-fans to jump in and start spouting nonsense.

The Council of Niceae had little to nothing to do at all with the formation of the Biblical canon. The discussion on which gospels to include had been practically over before that (although the debate ensued even after the council).
The Council was not all that important for the formation of the Bible or for Christianity's teachings at all.
And it certainly didn't have anything to do with politically inclined motives to appease the plebs, or a conspiracy between Constantine and space aliens. I've learned that from TG about a year ago. The hard way

[ThiudareiksGunthigg]

how about the council of nicae, what do you have to say about that?

What exactly are you trying to say about it?

[Gauvin]

Actually the majority of the information that was so called revealed in the Qu'ran was already revealed knoweldge, Greeks knew the world was round, people knew that sperm makes babies and that mountains formed by paltes...the Qu'ran offered nothing new so to speak.

You're right to point this out, but actually, the Qur'an and Hadith doesn't just repeat Greek science, it repeats erroneous Greek science. The hadith repeats Galen's and Hippocrates' assertions that female ejaculate mixes with male ejaculate to create a baby, we know now that that's not true, the hadith also states, like Galen that if there is more female ejaculate than male ejaculate the child will be female.

http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/c....html#003.0614

He (the Holy Prophet) said: The reproductive substance of man is white and that of woman (i. e. ovum central portion) yellow, and when they have sexual intercourse and the male's substance (chromosomes and genes) prevails upon the female's substance (chromosomes and genes), it is the male child that is created by Allah's Decree, and when the substance of the female prevails upon the substance contributed by the male, a female child is formed by the Decree of Allah.

Notice how the translator puts "chromosomes and genes" in paranthesis as an attempt to save face and mislead people. Unchanged?

[Hiero of Syracuse]

I have, you sort of came of as saying Islam is more creditable than other faiths and it still sounds that way.
THe only information I could find regaurding sperm is that people castrated a male especially gaurds to defend noble woman Arabia prior to the prophet's time. So they somehow knew that cutting off those testes resulted in a low sex drive and lack of procreation.
Greeks said that some diety which I forgot about struck the earth causing it to shake which made mountains rise...I think I saw that somewhere in the Illiad, but the passage about the creation of the universe is so vague it could mean anything. Had it say gas I would of been impressed but it says smoke which is a result of fire, but again that could be used to explain whatever.
Also didn't the Qu'ran say God made man from clay, you might as well say muslims can interpret that some other way.
As for Christianity, it's the teachings of Christ so most christians don't need to listen to bigots like Paul or whoever, because like Mohammud their messages we revolutionary but brought back down by their descendants. Most of the laws have to do with tradition and like all text the bible has been mistranslated over time.
Though the Qu'ran most likely is the truest to it's originaly form, but most muslims just use that excuse to give themselves undeserved creditbility.

[Dr. Oza]

gauvin, thats from a hadith, and i think that its because of the translation


http://www.islamicmedicine.org/embryoengtext.htm

http://www.islam101.com/science/embryo.html, i rest my case... the man writing it is a profesor at the university of toronto


and so it comes down to, you believe the bible is not all true, and yet you believe in jesus's supposed teachings which are in the same bible, i dont get that...

trinity for example...

[GuineaPig]

I don't get it, how is your belief in Islam not based on faith. There's about as much fact to Islam as their is to Christianity; you're just invoking certain pseudo-science in the Qu'ran to be true, just like Christian apologists do.

[Gauvin]

http://www.islam101.com/science/embryo.html, i rest my case... the man writing it is a profesor at the university of toronto

Yeah, this follows a trend within mainstream Islam called bucaillism, which is similar to the intelligent design movement with the Christians.

http://www.cafearabica.com/wwwboard/...ages/5948.html

Now a professor emeritus, Moore declined to be interviewed. Reached in
Toronto, he said he was busy revising his textbook and that “it’s been 10 or 11
years since I was involved in the Quran.”

He sounds really convinced....

If you read the article it details how many western scientists had been invited to conferences in Muslim countries and co-erced and prodded into saying what their hosts wanted to hear. None of the scientists Muslims say affirm that the Qur'an prophesized modern science actually converted to Islam.

I e-mailed a couple of the scientists myself, Simpson, being one, I recommend you do the same, many of them have positions at universities, and list their e-mails, it's easy to contact them and ask them yourself whether they truly believe the Qur'an was God-given, or accurately explains how the universe works.

Despite that article, you can still find videos of those scientists on youtube, posted by Muslims to prove western scientists consider the Qur'an to be a miracle.

[Hiero of Syracuse]

If you read any other post you will know I'm a diest so you can't really use the bible against me, The point I'm trying to get across is that you can't point the finger just because Christians are way better at killing than muslims honestly if anybody had the power those dictators had, they would of very well used it so 300,000 , 3,000,000 shouldn't matter because both numbers aimed to wipe people out.
But the link sadly doesn't work, and Gauvin already answered the question, that the Qu'ran repeats something that although is pretty close is wrong at least in a technical way.

[Hiero of Syracuse]

In which way does the Qu'ran accurately describe the workings of the universe? why do they consider it a miracle above all else?

[cfmonkey45]

whenever i debate with a overzealous christian trying to convert me, i always point out historical facts pointing at christianity's corruption, like the council of Nicae, like that fact that before paul, no christian records show anything to do with trinity, like that fact that along with Christmas, trinity seems to be a notion implemented to appease and easily transition the conversion of pagans, like that fact that the bible's original translations are lost, like that fact that Christians today ignore whatever parts of the bible they dont feel nice about, like not eating pork.

Not true. The Gospels according to Mathew and John make explicit references to the trinity. These gospels appeared around AD 70, just 40 years after Jesus had been crucified. There were no records of dissenting opinion, nor outrage, nor schisms.

Secondly, at citing that Christians don't follow the Kosher, there are two pieces of scripture:

31 "The time is coming," declares the LORD,
"when I will make a new covenant
with the house of Israel
and with the house of Judah.
32 It will not be like the covenant
I made with their forefathers
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they broke my covenant,
though I was a husband to [d] them, [e] "
declares the LORD.
33 "This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel
after that time," declares the LORD.
"I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people. 34 No longer will a man teach his neighbor,
or a man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,'
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,"
declares the LORD.
"For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more."

From a Christian perspective, we believe that this verse prophesizes the New Covenant that involves the sacrifice of Jesus of Nazereth on the cross. We believe that this over turns a number of the laws of the old covenant, including the Kosher (see below).

9About noon the following day as they were on their journey and approaching the city, Peter went up on the roof to pray. 10He became hungry and wanted something to eat, and while the meal was being prepared, he fell into a trance. 11He saw heaven opened and something like a large sheet being let down to earth by its four corners. 12It contained all kinds of four-footed animals, as well as reptiles of the earth and birds of the air. 13Then a voice told him, "Get up, Peter. Kill and eat."

14"Surely not, Lord!" Peter replied. "I have never eaten anything impure or unclean."
15The voice spoke to him a second time, "Do not call anything impure that God has made clean." 16This happened three times, and immediately the sheet was taken back to heaven.

whenver i confront a christian with this, they merely say that they have FAITH that the bible is true.. etc.. but i cannot see how people can be so ignorant to factual data

Elaborate; and at that, exactly how is Islam any less based upon faith?

as a muslim, i would not believe merely by faith, that is something not to be given lightly, but to be earned, for example i have seen the miracles of the quran and have believed, such as the explanation of how mountains form, the structure of the solar system, sperm and eggs, and many more, as well as prophezations that have been proven as history goes on, and thus i have faith in the rest of the quran, that and the fact that the earliest quran dating 10 years after muhammad is word for word same as the ones today.

I take these (save for the early Qu'ran) with a grain of salt. Cite sources and then we'll see. I've heard other Christians say the same thing, like how the Bible references atoms, talks about properties of light, as well as how Ecclesiastes describes, in detail, the hydrosphere and wind movements of the earth.

and aside from the world being round, which anyone who had a sense of logic would figure out, can you show me other people in the time period or before that knew about sperm and eggs, and about tetonic plates...

in the quranic chapter(sura) "The Romans", which was revealed early in muhammad's prophethood, it said that the romans (byzantines) believed in god, and so would defeat the sassanids, to simplify, at the time, the sassanids had made the greatest advance in their history against the byzantines
:
and the meccans used this to show the quran wasnt true, but soon after, a couple of decisive victories that no one expected, and against all odds, the sassanids were pushed back to iran... btw, this was in 620

here is the chapter from the quran, if you read the first few lines, you'll see what i am referring to
http://www.muslimaccess.com/quraan/arabic/030.asp

By that logic, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is also true for vaguely predicting the start of the civil war. Hell, you might even consider David Blaine to be a god. Imho, I think it probably wasn't that difficult to predict. Byzantium was pushed back to its core regions in Anatolia, and only its peripheral regions were captured. Likewise, the Persians had overextended themselves in a campaign of conquest.

Anyone with any military training (i.e. Mohammed, since he proved his military acumen quite wonderfully by consolidating the Arabian peninsula and subjugating Mecca) could predict this.

how about the council of nicae, what do you have to say about that?

Have you actually ever read what actually happened at the council of Nicaea?

[Dr. Oza]

Yeah, this follows a trend within mainstream Islam called bucaillism, which is similar to the intelligent design movement with the Christians.

that doesnt disprove it , and i never said the scientists converted to islam, to each his own...

well we are terribly off topic, hiero, start a thread about quran, and ill respond to you there

[CtrlAltDe1337]

whenever i debate with a overzealous christian trying to convert me, i always point out historical facts pointing at christianity's corruption, like the council of Nicae,

How was Nicea a corrupt council?

like that fact that before paul, no christian records show anything to do with trinity, like that fact that along with Christmas, trinity seems to be a notion implemented to appease and easily transition the conversion of pagans,

1st, Paul never uses the word trinity either, so I don't know what you are getting at. The other documents affirm very strongly that Jesus is God and that Jesus is man, thus teaching the trinity without using that word. I might add that before "trinity" became the word we use to refer to the mystery of the Godhead, "economy" was also used, but meant the same thing. You can read the early Church writers and even the very earliest guys (like Clement of Rome) call Jesus God.

And BTW, Christmas was made up in 354 by Christians trying to make Christianity easier for Pagans to transition into, and was not celebrated for the over 300 years of the Church before then, since its clear from the Bible that Jesus wasn't born on December 25th, but it was rather a Pagan holiday.

Secondly, the trinity is not really easy for Pagans to grasp either, since they would naturally assume that there are 3 gods instead of 3 "distinctions" or "persons" (I use the word very loosely) in 1 essence. And, as you would expect, heresies arose that taught just that. It would also be hard for Pagans to grasp that Jesus was both fully divine and fully man, so I don't think your statement has much weight.

like that fact that the bible's original translations are lost,

Original "translations" ? Do you mean the original documents? Because we have thousands of Greek Bibles (a total of about 24,000 ancient Bibles with most being Greek). And they agree almost exactly, barring the occasional scribal error, or deliberate attempt to change a passage, which are out there, but few compared to the whole book and the great mass of documents that we still have. Might I remind you that there is no compete Koran original either?

like that fact that Christians today ignore whatever parts of the bible they dont feel nice about, like not eating pork.

Hardly; Christians do not follow the law, else we should still be Jews. Jesus fulfilled the law, ending the old ceremonies and instituting two new ones (the Eucharist and baptism). Plus, the ceremonies had a spiritual reason behind them, which the Jews and Muslims ignore, looking to the bare observance of rites to fulfill the law of God.

whenver i confront a christian with this, they merely say that they have FAITH that the bible is true.. etc.. but i cannot see how people can be so ignorant to factual data

Faith does not mean we believe something with no proof. Faith is believing in something you know to be true by infalliable proofs, but cannot "see" at the present (else you should not need faith). I have faith in my doctor that he will take care of me based on past personal experience, not because I'm just hoping that he will with no basis for my hope.

as a muslim, i would not believe merely by faith, that is something not to be given lightly, but to be earned, for example i have seen the miracles of the quran and have believed, such as the explanation of how mountains form, the structure of the solar system, sperm and eggs, and many more, as well as prophezations that have been proven as history goes on, and thus i have faith in the rest of the quran, that and the fact that the earliest quran dating 10 years after muhammad is word for word same as the ones today.

I might remind you that, first of all, you have faith in your holy book just like Christians have faith in the Bible. Secondly, the Bible is full of accurate scientific, geographical, and prophetic passages which confirm that it is truly the word of God.