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  1. #1
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    Default Winning "legit" KOJ strategy (feedback encouraged)

    Thanks to some outstanding responses to my previous thread, I have finally embarked on a successfull KOJ campaign, and done it without resorting to cheap tricks like using generals to rush enemy settlements in opening turns or "fortifying" merchants with armies. From the get go their are a few concepts you have to come to terms with playing KOJ.

    1. Your units are expensive and your economy sucks. Get used to winning battles where you are outnumbered. Learning to use your knights strategically is the key. Pin down your enemy's line with spearmen and then flank with your knights to either a.) smash the enemy line's backside or b.) clean out the enemy's archers. Make sure they don't get bogged down in large melee battles, as they will die in this mod.

    2. Until you take Antioch, you will see red script and negative signs in your treasury block.

    3. Makuria and Armenia (and usually Georgia) will instantly ally with you.. after this diplomacy becomes a very difficult challenge with the rest of the factions the rest of the game.

    4. Don't get too wrapped up in merchants, as KOJ seems to produce a lot of low quality ones that will get eaten alive. Find other ways to develop your economy.

    Now for the strategy.

    Phase 1 (establishing base): The first hurdle you will run into is an expensive army and weak economy. Max out your taxation and take Baalbek and then Antioch ASAP. It is imperative to get to Antioch before the Armenians. I am convinced this is the essential first couple turns if you want to see 1200 AD.

    Phase 2 (build up): Once you have captured these two cities, your options for conquest become pretty limited, as their are few easily attainable rebel settlements and war with the Ayyubids can be disastrous at this point. Aleppo is a bad rebel target because Mustafa's horse archer hordes will chew your slower, heavily armored army to pieces. Now is the time to build up an economy in the "grace period" before your enemies invade from all sides. If you can, try and secure a trade agreement with the Romans. Focus on developing Antioch as a trade center to base your economy, as this is the only province that has much economic potential and give you the most bang for your buck on economic upgrades.

    Now is also the time to build essential structures for the military, as you start out with very little recruitment options. Build a templar order station in Acre to start producing templar spearmen. Work towards ranged unit structures in Acre and Kerak.. this is expensive and time consuming but you will need those precious crossbowmen to defend your cities and lines, and turkopole archers to soften up the enemy line. Building a hospitaler station in Jerusalem to get hospitaler light cavalry which will be essential to chase horse archers, harass ground archers, and pin down enemy cavalry for the knights/spearmen to dismember, as well as protect your flanks. Basic infantry structures in castles will provide you with poulain men at arms for flanking and attacking enemy infantry and spearmen. Basic infantry structures in cities provide you with halberdiers.. assault infantry in a pinch, and spearmen to aid the templar spears in forming the line. An Abbey in Jerusalem will give you two advantages: 1.) access to priests to spread catholicism (aka reduce religious unrest) and 2.) Norman knights, a very powerful knightly order that you can use as your heavy cav early in the game.

    This is the phase that will make or break your campaign. Plussing up your economy and building a military infrastructure with limited resources is a very delicate balance, and if you fail to do this properly the rest of the campaign will suck. A little bit of luck helps out here as well.

    Phase 3 (Expansion): This is where the strategy for KOJ begins to diverge IMHO. You have to know the right moment to go on the offensive against the Ayyubids.. too soon and you will be overwhelmed, too late and they will seize the initiative, invade, and you will be overwhelmed. In my campaign, I waited until my economy was stable and military infrastructure was developed enough to afford and produce a balanced army. My moment to attack came with a stroke of luck when the Romans attacked the Ayyubids (they were also at war with me). I quickly made use of this blessing and attacked Syria.. as this region is isolated from the rest of the sultanate. I immediately scouted the one large stack in Syria (almost always Fahim) and engaged and destroyed him in a field battle in northern Syria. After this, I decided to take the north provinces first, as Damascus will produce hordes of levies.

    Once isolating Damascus, I quickly laid siege while a.) maintaining garrisons in the south to avoid southern incursions and b.) using my remaining troops in a seperate army to attack all reinforcements enroute to Damascus and keep it cut off.. it is tough enough without reinforcements.. This required a very efficient use of what forces I had, not a single soldier was left "un-utilized". I laid siege to Damascus, and almost lost when the newly generated hordes of ahdath spearmen and m hunters sallied with the remainder of the armies I had previously destroyed as a core. My saving grace was using my knights to break the weak morale of the levy units, and a band of mercenary horse archers to harass and distract the enemy's main effort. I ended up slaughtering 2100+ enemy with my 800 ragtag campaign troops losing about 300-400.

    Once I captured Damascus after the failed sally, everything suddenly seemed to fall into place. The next turn a.) my coffers were full b.) the ERE declared a ceasefire, and with some financial encouragement from the spoils of Damascus, actually ended up my ally in the same negotiation! Their posture immediately went from very poor, to reasonable, to friendly. Also, on the same turn the pope announced a crusade! I havn't seen the European crusades yet but assume they will arrive in a couple turns.

    This leads me to believe the key to this phase of operations is to capture Damascus as the end objective.

    I am currently postured for phase 4, Egyptian Crusade (Romans have already taken Damyut.), and am well into my 4th and most successful KOJ campaign. It has been very rewarding, as it has taken meticulous economic and military development and very intense strategical and tactical manuevering, and a fair dose of good luck to reach this point at 1202 AD. It is incredible how amazing of a job the BC team has done in producing such a historically accurate, strategically stimulating mod that captures the atmosphere of the Crusades to nearly perfection. My hat is once again off to them, their mod continues to provide hours of enjoyment and enrichment.

    I appreciate any feedback on the strategies I have mentioned. Sorry this got long winded, but I have seen a lot of questions about KOJ tactics and wanted to summarize what I have learned from the game and other players.
    Last edited by UH60pilot; July 28, 2009 at 05:16 PM.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Winning "legit" KOJ strategy (feedback encouraged)

    May I be the 1st in congratulating you on your mastery of the KoJ. Good read!
    CAKE OR DEATH?
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  3. #3

    Default Re: Winning "legit" KOJ strategy (feedback encouraged)

    i actually got through just fine by disbanding all my cavalry and going straight for antioch and then damascus. cavalry just cost to much in upkeep at the start.


    Watch some of me replays for RTW http://www.youtube.com/user/TeutonicJoe

  4. #4
    wudang_clown's Avatar Fire Is Inspirational
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    Default Re: Winning "legit" KOJ strategy (feedback encouraged)

    Surgical precision, well done!

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  5. #5
    CtrlAltDe1337's Avatar Praepositus
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    Default Re: Winning "legit" KOJ strategy (feedback encouraged)

    Congrats on your campaign. Damascus is indeed the key; once you have that, the Ayyubids are in decline and can only attack you from 1 direction, making most of your settlements safe.


    Quote Originally Posted by Teutonic Joe View Post
    i actually got through just fine by disbanding all my cavalry and going straight for antioch and then damascus. cavalry just cost to much in upkeep at the start.
    But they are some of your best units too.


  6. #6
    1stCohort's Avatar Libertus
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    Default Re: Winning "legit" KOJ strategy (feedback encouraged)

    Quote Originally Posted by UH60pilot View Post
    1. Your units are expensive and your economy sucks. Get used to winning battles where you are outnumbered. Learning to use your knights strategically is the key. Pin down your enemy's line with spearmen and then flank with your knights to either a.) smash the enemy line's backside or b.) clean out the enemy's archers. Make sure they don't get bogged down in large melee battles, as they will die in this mod.

    So true, you have to be very active in cycling the charge of your knights because they usually get beat if left alone to melee due to numbers. I now stack my armies with mostly cavalry and spearmen.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Winning "legit" KOJ strategy (feedback encouraged)

    i would rather stick to the strength that the KoJ had in 1.0 which was its pretty good spearmen. im applying that logic to 2.0 since i have survived pretty long using basic spearmen...also im on medium/medium but hey this is my first 2.0 game =P


    Watch some of me replays for RTW http://www.youtube.com/user/TeutonicJoe

  8. #8

    Default Re: Winning "legit" KOJ strategy (feedback encouraged)

    Personally I just love the Latin Halbardiers, they are cheap, freely available in most starting cities (I convert Tartus into a city first to boost its growth), and will eat Ayyubids cavalry alive and take down much more expensive and experienced infantry (mamuluks excluded). Just produce a bunch of these and rush into melee whenever possible, their sheer numbers and bang-for-buck will overwhelm the Ayyubids. Have a few knights on stand-by to charge the rears and you're all set for a clear victory.
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  9. #9

    Default Re: Winning "legit" KOJ strategy (feedback encouraged)

    congrats on your successes so far. keep on going though you're still at the begining of your campaign

    Quote Originally Posted by UH60pilot View Post
    4. Don't get too wrapped up in merchants, as KOJ seems to produce a lot of low quality ones that will get eaten alive. Find other ways to develop your economy.
    actually merchants are the same for all factions. i wrote a longer post about them in your last thread. i don't know if you've read it though as i posted it a few days after your last post.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bull View Post
    Personally I just love the Latin Halbardiers, they are cheap, freely available in most starting cities (I convert Tartus into a city first to boost its growth), and will eat Ayyubids cavalry alive and take down much more expensive and experienced infantry (mamuluks excluded). Just produce a bunch of these and rush into melee whenever possible, their sheer numbers and bang-for-buck will overwhelm the Ayyubids. Have a few knights on stand-by to charge the rears and you're all set for a clear victory.
    Quote Originally Posted by UH60pilot View Post
    I personally havn't had much luck with halberdiers, they seem to get chewed up pretty fast by the enemy's infantry. I always find Ayyubid archers and infantry to be far more of a bother than their cavalry.
    it depends on how you use them. don't feed them to low tier inf. use them on higher tier inf like the macemen or axemen of the ayubbids or cav. don't use them as line inf but keep them in the second line and move them forward where you need them. and they get copped up no matter against what you send them. it's just that if you pick the right targets they kill enough to be worth their price a few times over. they also the kill cav a lot faster than spearmen which can come in handy if you're time pressed in a siege.

    Quote Originally Posted by UH60pilot View Post
    Also, on the same turn the pope announced a crusade! I havn't seen the European crusades yet but assume they will arrive in a couple turns.
    if thats the same one i got it will mean two stacks apearing in anatolia in ERE teritory. so i suggest you try to get military access from the ERE so your relations don't suffer and have 2 ships ready for transport. they should appear about 4-5 turns after the anouncement.

    Quote Originally Posted by UH60pilot View Post
    Converting Tartus into a city, didn't think of that one but it's a good idea. It seems pretty much useless as a castle, as tier 2 you can't hardly recruit anything from it.
    not only tartus. take a good look at all of your settlements within your AoR. look at the trade resources, sea access and number of neighboring settlements. and convert them appropriately. but always keep enough recruitment options open to field armies. remember that you'll get enough economic settlements outside of your AoR later so choose the type of settlements in within it primarily on recruitment options.
    it also good to keep some future castles as towns for the growth bonus until they have 7-8k population. build farms and smiths and other growth enhancing buildings. barracks don't get converted over in version 2.02, i don't know that is intended though.

    i even converted kerak to a town temorarily a bit later when i had enough other recruitment options as it starts with extremly low pop and has only 0.5% base growth. towns also get twice the bonus from chivalric generals than castles.
    Last edited by Spider1110; July 29, 2009 at 04:58 AM.

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Winning "legit" KOJ strategy (feedback encouraged)

    Converting Tartus into a city, didn't think of that one but it's a good idea. It seems pretty much useless as a castle, as tier 2 you can't hardly recruit anything from it. I personally havn't had much luck with halberdiers, they seem to get chewed up pretty fast by the enemy's infantry. I always find Ayyubid archers and infantry to be far more of a bother than their cavalry.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Winning "legit" KOJ strategy (feedback encouraged)

    Halbediers help quite much actually, I started to use them in later mart of my KOJ campaign, when Damascus, Baalbek, Holms and castle north of Damascus was taken. What was it's name? Once key major cities are taken, income will nicely flood in. Most interesting part would be that I even didn't take Antioch, I was invaded by Ayubbids before that. One can make 2 pretty nice stack with starting units.
    "We'll go to the front—and beyond it, if it'll save the galaxy. Sometimes you have to enter the darkness to save the light."

  12. #12
    Dr. Jones's Avatar Tiro
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    Default Re: Winning "legit" KOJ strategy (feedback encouraged)

    Hey,
    your campaign soudns very similar to mine

    Congratulations on your game, it must be alot of fun.



  13. #13
    Paladin247's Avatar Biarchus
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    Default Re: Winning "legit" KOJ strategy (feedback encouraged)

    I am in year 1216 with KOJ on H/VH, and got there using a lot of what UH60 has espoused here. I'm controlling all six cities needed for victory and have 29 territories total, second behind the Seljuks who have 32. I have all of Egypt, most of Syria and 75% of the Arabian Peninsula's crust. My problem now is the Seljuks spawning like rabbits. My Arabian crust army is now pretty beat up and the supply line is horrendous. Recruiting down there is harder than getting kids in Beverly Hills to join the Marine Corps.

    I've got one army comprised completely of native levies in Odessa; they get besieged like every other turn by a full stack Seljuk army. In Harran I've got an eight stack native garrison and a full crusader army at the river crossing to the south. The Seljuks have attacked Harran every turn with one or two nearly full stack armies for the last 4-5 turns and more are on the way. I keep winning the battles, but the attrition plus the long line of communication to the bases to replace the wounded is taking a toll. And they just keep coming.

    The economy is humming. I'm running a balance of 12,000 to 15,000 Florins and make a good profit to start each turn. Problem is you can't buy enuf decent units even tho you can afford them. I've had eight depleted stacks of crusader units (at strengths of 1-8) sitting in Acre alone for multiple turns waiting for replacements. I'm even shuttling wounded to the castle on Cyprus.

    I tried to get my ally Armenia to attack the Seljuks, but they just said, "Do you know what fat chance means?"

    Realistic, fun, but frustrating.
    "With a population of around a million, Rome (in Claudius' time) was a vast city even by modern standards. It is worth pointing out that during the early Renaissance the population of Rome was no more than fifteen thousand-- living amid the ruins of a civilization that dwarfed their own. It was not until the nineteenth century that the population of Rome returned to the levels it had enjoyed under the Caesars. That is eloquent proof of the fact that human history is not a tale of steady progress towards greater knowledge and achievement." Simon Scarrow

  14. #14
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    Default Re: Winning "legit" KOJ strategy (feedback encouraged)

    Thanks to UH60, Paladin and others for this nice summary of how the events evolve in their campaigns. This is very useful for further updates of the mod, because it gives us an idea of how the game progress as a combination of units strengths, diplomacy, economy, and AI behavior. Just from these two examples, I was able to derive some strengths and weakness, and potential updates to elevate some of the weaknesses. I would encourage this type of unbiased descriptional feedback when ever possible, opposed to more opinionated approach.
    While posting feedback specifically targeting single are of interest (ex. strenght of unit X), can give some early indication of bugged stats, most of time, it's not something we take very seriously. Simply because if after brief check stat looks ok, then the notion of imbalance is simply not concluded from limited scenario poster has provided.
    Of course, all feedback is welcome, it's just that some are more helpful to us then the other. In some other mods it may be different way, but that's how we work best.

  15. #15

    Default Re: Winning "legit" KOJ strategy (feedback encouraged)

    Well done Blackhawk Pilot

    I am glad to hear that it wnet well for your KoJ campaign.
    Like Spider1110 commented Merchants are equal to all factions. I think they are very important in BC because the resources gives a much higher output than in other M2TW mods. You can improve their rating/experience by taking other merchants money thereby giving you an even higher output etc. so for me they are crucial for the economy whatever faction I play.

    Regarding Damascus I rushed the city in the first turn, seized it in the second and seized Holms in the third. That got the Ayyubids off balance and improved my economy, and thereby facilitating my march toward Cairo (always forget that city's name in the game)
    The ERE did not declare war against the Ayyubids but me instead, so I had to build a navy and took Cyprus as a retaliating action for their declaration of war.

    But as you also wrote the key to succes in battles are the Knights. I used Guy and Reynald (do not like their character) as penal-troops in every battle hoping to kill them but never succeded (in contrary they killed a lot of foes)

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  16. #16
    Paladin247's Avatar Biarchus
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    Default Re: Winning "legit" KOJ strategy (feedback encouraged)

    Some more stuff that may be helpful. We are now at year 1218. I control 32 territories thanks to gobbling up two more small Omani settlements on the Arabian Peninsula, and the Seljuks stand at 34. In the last four game turns, I've won four or five battles and probably killed 7,000 or more Seljuks. These are big battles of annihilation. No one gets away and I kill all the prisoners. I've lost ~1,500, maybe more. This makes now at least ten GT where I've fought and won at least one pitched battle each GT always w/ enormous loss to them.

    The current tacsit is:
    1. They are beseiging Edessa yet again with a 20 stack.
    2. They are beseiging Harran again w/ a 20 stack and simultaneously menacing my crusader army at the river crossing w/ an additional 20 stack.
    3. Six more armies (one 18 stack and five less than 10 stacks) are approaching Harran from the NE one game turn out.
    4. Another 20 stack is coming south from Mardin.
    5. And if this weren't enough, they have two 20 stack armies proceeding SE along the Arabian coast headed for my now ragged Peninsula Army.

    As Ethan Edwards says in The Searchers, "Enough to go 'round."

    My only major force, other than the beseiged garrisons, is the 20 stack army at the river crossing south of Harran and a small 4 stack of "pall bearers" assisting.

    I still have eight units of depleted cripples waiting for replacements at Acre; about one of which gets fleshed out per GT. There are four other crip units scattered about in other settlements with about the same rate of replenishment.

    Native levy troops tho are replacing at about the same rate as the elites. I've had eight or so crip units of native infantry sitting in the castle at Aleppo for six GT or so. I finally had to crunch them together, losing some chevron units, because I had to have the troops.

    So things are looking bleak for KOJ. Even tho if you look at the graphs in faction overview ranking, you could get convinced somewhat the reverse. Their production sits at 2K and mine is 14K. Their financials are at 20K and mine at 55K. So how are they continuing to support this monstrous force? They're at a military strength of 500K and I'm at 200K.

    I'm in the Robert E Lee position where Grant could replace everything he lost and Lee could replace almost nothing of his losses. Except that my economy is rocking; I just can't get replacements and Seljuks are spawning everywhere.
    Last edited by Paladin247; July 29, 2009 at 05:08 PM.
    "With a population of around a million, Rome (in Claudius' time) was a vast city even by modern standards. It is worth pointing out that during the early Renaissance the population of Rome was no more than fifteen thousand-- living amid the ruins of a civilization that dwarfed their own. It was not until the nineteenth century that the population of Rome returned to the levels it had enjoyed under the Caesars. That is eloquent proof of the fact that human history is not a tale of steady progress towards greater knowledge and achievement." Simon Scarrow

  17. #17

    Default Re: Winning "legit" KOJ strategy (feedback encouraged)

    Quote Originally Posted by Paladin247 View Post
    Some more stuff that may be helpful. We are now at year 1218. I control 32 territories thanks to gobbling up two more small Omani settlements on the Arabian Peninsula, and the Seljuks stand at 34. In the last four game turns, I've won four or five battles and probably killed 7,000 or more Seljuks. These are big battles of annihilation. No one gets away and I kill all the prisoners. I've lost ~1,500, maybe more. This makes now at least ten GT where I've fought and won at least one pitched battle each GT always w/ enormous loss to them.
    The current tacsit is:
    1. They are beseiging Edessa yet again with a 20 stack.
    2. They are beseiging Harran again w/ a 20 stack and simultaneously menacing my crusader army at the river crossing w/ a 20 stack.
    3. Six more armies (one 18 stack and five less than 10 stacks) are approaching Harran from the NE one game turn out.
    4. Another 20 stack is coming south from Mardin.
    5. And if this weren't enough, they have two 20 stack armies proceeding SE along the Arabian coast headed for my now ragged Peninsula Army.
    As Ethan Edwards says in The Searchers, "Enough to go 'round."
    My only major force, other than the beseiged garrisons, is the 20 stack army at the river crossing south of Harran and a small 4 stack of "pall bearers" assisting.
    I still have eight units of depleted cripples waiting for replacements at Acre; about one of which gets fleshed out per GT. There are four other crip units scattered about in other settlements with about the same rate of replenishment.
    So things are looking bleak for KOJ. Even tho if you look at the graphs in faction overview ranking, you could get convinced somewhat the reverse. Their production sits at 2K and mine is 14K. Their financials are at 20K and mine at 55K. So how are they continuing to support this monstrous force? They're at a military strength of 500K and I'm at 200K.
    I'm in the Robert E Lee position where Grant could replace everything he lost and Lee could replace almost nothing of his losses. Except that my economy is rocking; I just can't get replacements and Seljuks are spawning everywhere.
    Yes it is known the seljuks are getting strong anyways, but do keep in mind they get very large wich also means they have settlements wich does not belong to their AOR.
    In my campaign with KoJ (year 1270) they are also spamming stacks but with crappy units, adath spearmen/archers and so on.
    They also depend on mercenaries wich can be better then the levy units.
    They are not unbeatable, tho it seems the other AI factions is not able to win from 2 levy stacks.
    Sig made by me, content from Broken Crescent.

  18. #18

    Default Re: Winning "legit" KOJ strategy (feedback encouraged)

    Quote Originally Posted by Tintin2 View Post
    Yes it is known the seljuks are getting strong anyways, but do keep in mind they get very large wich also means they have settlements wich does not belong to their AOR.
    In my campaign with KoJ (year 1270) they are also spamming stacks but with crappy units, adath spearmen/archers and so on.
    They also depend on mercenaries wich can be better then the levy units.
    They are not unbeatable, tho it seems the other AI factions is not able to win from 2 levy stacks.
    In my KoJ campaign I am at year 1256 and the Seljuks are also the strongest faction in that campaign. They have both the Georgians and Turks as protectorates and ERE has been destroyed. I am allied with Armenia and they are controlling Aleppo and Edessa only. KoJ controls the southern coast of Anatolia.
    Most Seljuks stacks deployed in Anatolia mostly consists of Levy units.

  19. #19
    Laetus
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    Default Re: Winning "legit" KOJ strategy (feedback encouraged)

    really enjoyed reading your strategies perhaps you could do more on the other factions?

  20. #20
    Foederatus
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    Default Re: Winning "legit" KOJ strategy (feedback encouraged)

    [really enjoyed reading your strategies perhaps you could do more on the other factions? ]

    - I'm glad to hear people enjoy the reading, and am really thrilled to hear the mod designers read what we write and using it as a tool. And here I thought I was going to get negative feedback for writing too much in one post!

    I have a long way to go yet with the KOJ, as I am still around 1208 AD and only control Syria and the Levant. I went into another period of building infrastructure and developing economically now that I have the Ayyubids on the heel, and the Romans are currently tearing them up (and not me for once!). I havn't noticed the Seljuk dominance that everyone has mentioned as of yet, in my campaign the Georgians go real big early on, and now the Abbasids have wiped them down to a few provinces and have become the dominant force on my campaign map.. but they have declared war recently with the Seljuks so we will see. The Rum Turks are doing well too taking down Armenia, so I am thinking of driving north instead of taking Egypt, as the Turkish threat is suddenly much larger than the Ayyubid.

    I will try to make some updates as I play, I am currently on an Iraq deployment so I only get to play when I have spare time, and we've been weathered in by dust storms recently, hence my recent progress . I think that enhances my enjoyment of BC since I regularly see Basrah and occasionally make it to Baghdad and Al Hillah.. all cities on the map and looking very much the same as they did during the 13th century (minus some crappy vehicles, trash, and mismatched clusters of telephone lines, and the occasional satellite dish). I think for this very reason I will play the Abbasids on my next campaign.

    Paladin and everyone else, I thoroughly enjoyed reading your campaigns, gives me a benchmark as well as expectations to go off of. Keep posting!

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