Ukraine - Independent or the Borderland of Russia?

[RussoAmiTurristo]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJvLp...eature=channel


The youtube link is about 3 minutes long and is an interesting podcast.

I was in Ukraine recently and was surprised with the amount of pro-Russian sentiment. Even as she talks about the statistics that 30 percent (something like that?) say Russian is their native language, I think that is an understatement. I was in Ukraine and most of everyone I talked to spoke Russian. It was humorous because i took a tour from Ukraine through Europe- The tour guide spoke in Ukrainian and everyone else spoke in Russian back. No one by choice wanted to speak Ukrainian. Many Russians I speak with in Ukraine say that it is a great tragedy that Russia and Ukraine split off from each other.

Your thoughts?

I'm not suggesting that Ukraine and Russia should or should not reunite. I just want to know what people's thoughts are.

BTW, I don't know how to make it play video in the forum thread- sorryz.

[Heathen Hammer]

Ukraine was not even a nation before February revolution. It is as much of a nation as Bavaria or one of American states.

[ivan_the_terrible]

Ukraine was not even a nation before February revolution. It is as much of a nation as Bavaria or one of American states.

This is BS.

Ukraine is as much a nation as Russia. Strictly in my opinion, the eastern slavs are culturally close enough to be considered one nation. But not as a subset of Russian.

[Applesmack]

Ukraine is as much a nation as Russia. Strictly in my opinion, the eastern slavs are culturally close enough to be considered one nation. But not as a subset of Russian.

QFT

[Urban fox]

The situation is complex as Ukranie is the Belgium of the east

A few years ago Ukraine’s Orange Revolution was always painted (in the western media, at least) as a conflict between western-looking Yushchenko and the eastern-looking former Prime Minister Yanukovich, the man whose suspect election to the presidency sparked popular protests and an eventual turnaround back in November 2004. Yushchenko was, it is alleged, the target of an assassination plot backed by Moscow, while Yanukovich was merely backed by Moscow. When the Revolution got its way and Yushchenko came to power, it seemed the West had won.

But it was never going to be that simple, or that easy. After countless disputes between Ukraine’s various political factions over the last four years, another post-Orange Revolution government is nearing collapse thanks to spats between former Orange allies Viktor Yushchenko and Yulia Tymoshenko - and all as the aftermath of the Georgia crisis continues to rumble with the US handing Saakashvili a tidy $1 billion in reconstruction money (otherwise known as a fiscal two fingers to Moscow), and Russia announces a review of its global trade relations. Although the EU may account for 31% of Ukraine’s export market, Russia makes up 21% - and after the various spats over gas supplies over the last couple of years, you can be sure that Ukrainians are somewhat worried about just what Moscow may have planned to reassert the influence she lost with the fall of former President Kuchma back in 2004.


The thing is, though, that even without the squabbles between the various political leaders, the position of Ukraine was never going to be resolved by a simple election. Did Yanukovich try to steal the election back in 2004? Quite possibly. But that still doesn’t alter the fact that the country’s vote was split almost exactly down the middle.

Of course, it’s easy to label this an East vs West thing, and that’s part of it. But the actual reason is cultural and linguistic. Ukraine’s just like Belgium, in fact. The parallels are painfully evident:



You see, just as Belgium has a north/south split between Flemish and French speakers, so too it has a north/south political divide. And in Ukraine, there’s a northwest/southeast split between majority Ukrainian speakers and Russian speakers, echoed in political support for the “west-leaning” Yushchenko/Orange Revolution in the northwest and “pro-Russia” Yanukovich in the southeast.

So, why does Ukraine have the borders that she does? They’re a fairly recent creation, after all - with the origins of Ukraine lying in the medieval Kievan Rus’, which stretched north from Kiev through modern Belarus and Poland to the Baltic, not south and east to the Black Sea. It went on to be absorbed into the Grand Duchy of Lithuania (covering much the same area - but again missing out the south and east of modern Ukraine, which was part of the Crimean Khanate, before being sucked into the similarly vast Kingdom of Poland via the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth.

Check the maps below (very rough, I know) charting Ukraine’s geographical history up to the 19th century (when it was absorbed by the Russian Empire) - notice something?



Yep - that’s right. The Russian-speaking, Yanukovich-voting part of modern Ukraine was not, historically, part of Ukraine - it’s a later addition tacked on during the Russian Empire. During the chaotic times following the Russian revolution and around the Ukrainian War of Independence of 1919, the northwest that tried to break away as a Ukrainian state (actually, several Ukrainian states, after repeated failures to consolidate their position), while the southeast (briefly) went its own way as the Crimean People’s Republic. It was really only under the Soviets - who took the Tsars’ attempts to crush the Crimean Tatars and put down Ukranian nationalism (especially after the Second World War, where Ukrainian nationalists fought both the Russians and the Germans, depending on who was occupying the area at the time, in a campaign that lasted until 1956) - that Ukraine’s current borders began to be fixed. In fact, you can even put a precise date on it - 19th February 1954, the day the Crimean Oblast was transferred to the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic.

So here’s the question. If northwestern Ukraine is the linguistic, cultural and historical hub of the Ukrainian people, and southwestern Ukraine has only been spliced on within living memory, why persist with the pretense that the current borders of the modern Ukrainian state are actually meaningful? They were created by the Soviet Union as a handy administrative division, not based on any of the usual factors that go into the creation of a coherent state. Artificial borders have, time and again, led to conflict and division - be it via European colonialism in Africa or the carving up of the Middle East after the First World War.

If Ukraine really is torn between east and west, in other words - and it is - and if its artificial makeup keeps leading to political stalemate and unrest - and it does - isn’t the logical thing to do to follow the Belgian example and consider splitting the country down the middle?

Am I serious about this as a suggestion? It’s about 50/50 at the moment. But the longer Ukraine goes without forming a normal stable governments for longer than a year, the more likely an outcome this will be.

[MaximiIian]

Ukraine was not even a nation before February revolution. It is as much of a nation as Bavaria or one of American states.

Less, really. Bavaria actually was a nation; for a long, long time. And the American States, while not nations, are interdependent yet technically sovereign states. Ukraine was more a separate cultural region of Russia that decided "Well, we have our own culture. Why not have our own nation?". Which isn't necessarily bad or illegitimate, just funny.

Ukraine, if anything, is more Russian than Russia itself, given that it was the crucible for early Russian political organisation, e.g. the Kievan Rus' and the aforementioned Grand Principality of Kiev. Mind, Russian doesn't simply mean "Muscovite"; it's the whole shebang.

[Tecumseh]

I was in Ukraine recently and was surprised with the amount of pro-Russian sentiment.

In the east. Where did you go in Ukraine by the way?

[Pavlik the Rus]

No, it is a nation. Yes, close language and culture, but still.
Also there is a great difference in Ukraine - east and west. Relations with Russians and use of Ukrainean language differs from region to region.
Most "Russian" part is an east, most "Ukrainean" is a west.
Cremea is a different story. Russian area, who was presented to the UkraineanSSR by Khruschev. No one asked population, where they want to live.

[zmv]

I am from Ukraine (Donetsk) I love Ukraine and Russia is one nation i hope someday they will be reunite!

[YuriVII]

Well everyone in Former-USSR speaks Russian (except maybe in Baltics). When the diaspora (from all former states, except baltics they are anti-social) speak Russian amongst eachother. I went even to Western-Ukraine (Moldovan border) and they still spoke Russian and were "russophiles."

Does Ukraine deserve to be an independent country, yeah sure. Why not? What's done is done, and they are independent and it would be wrong to forcefully reunited them. If they (or parts such as Crimea and Odessa) wanted to peacfully reunite with us, I would be in favor. The cultures are extreamley close as Pavlik said, and in some families it is hard to say how Ukrainians are such a different country. Some people find it hard to accept that we are seperate now since we have been part of the same civilization for the majorities of our existences. I sometimes think Ukraine is Russia's Taiwan.

[Salvatorel]

No, it is a nation. Yes, close language and culture, but still.

I was in Ukraine recently and was surprised with the amount of pro-Russian sentiment. Even as she talks about the statistics that 30 percent

i guess that you were either in Luhansk,Sevastopol or Donetsk i seriously doubt that a Galician or a Rusyn will be pro Russian

Well everyone in Former-USSR speaks Russian

are my ears lying me? here many urban older people still can speak Russian but they rarely use it(except those who are married to Russian speakers) and those who can really fluently speak Russian are rare,in rural areas Russian speakers are very few,also many from newer generations can not speak Russian at all,those who still speak Russian sometimes are Armenians from Javakheti,in last years Azeris mostly learned Georgian or prefer to use their blend of Georgian,Russian and Azeri and almost never pure Russian,other minorities like Kists always spoke Georgian so with them there is no language problem and about some remaining Russians:most of urban Russian population who were main share of Russophone Georgian citisens left in 90s,there are other Russians,who remained,especially in black sea regions like Guria and Ajara:most of those are assimilated into the society and many of them even identify themselves as Georgians
therefore judging entire post USSR countries using only Eastern Ukraine's,Belarus's and middle Asian countrie's examples is very wrong

[YuriVII]

i guess that you were either in Luhansk,Sevastopol or Donetsk i seriously doubt that a Galician or a Rusyn will be pro Russian

are my ears lying me? here many urban older people still can speak Russian but they rarely use it(except those who are married to Russian speakers) and those who can really fluently speak Russian are rare,in rural areas Russian speakers are very few,also many from newer generations can not speak Russian at all,those who still speak Russian sometimes are Armenians from Javakheti,in last years Azeris mostly learned Georgian or prefer to use their blend of Georgian,Russian and Azeri and almost never pure Russian,other minorities like Kists always spoke Georgian so with them there is no language problem and about some remaining Russians:most of urban Russian population who were main share of Russophone Georgian citisens left in 90s,there are other Russians,who remained,especially in black sea regions like Guria and Ajara:most of those are assimilated into the society and many of them even identify themselves as Georgians
therefore judging entire post USSR countries using only Eastern Ukraine's,Belarus's and middle Asian countrie's examples is very wrong

Alot of Georgians speak Russian and so do Azeris, all though not all. Dont take it out of context.

[ivan_the_terrible]

I don't think splitting the country is the answer.

All that is needed, is for the current ultra-nationalist government to give some autonomy to regions.

For example, Crimea speaks almost exclusively Russian, yet the only official language is Ukrainian, and there are blatant efforts to push through Ukrainian as much as possible.
Things like giving regions the option to have co-official languages, and generally not have cultural things artificially shoved down their throats would go a long way towards resolving the problem, imo.

[Azog 150]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJvLp...eature=channel


The youtube link is about 3 minutes long and is an interesting podcast.

I was in Ukraine recently and was surprised with the amount of pro-Russian sentiment. Even as she talks about the statistics that 30 percent (something like that?) say Russian is their native language, I think that is an understatement. I was in Ukraine and most of everyone I talked to spoke Russian. It was humorous because i took a tour from Ukraine through Europe- The tour guide spoke in Ukrainian and everyone else spoke in Russian back. No one by choice wanted to speak Ukrainian. Many Russians I speak with in Ukraine say that it is a great tragedy that Russia and Ukraine split off from each other.

Your thoughts?

I'm not suggesting that Ukraine and Russia should or should not reunite. I just want to know what people's thoughts are.

BTW, I don't know how to make it play video in the forum thread- sorryz.

I think that may be more to do with the area you went to. If I am not mistaken, there are certain areas in Ukraine with a high proportion of Russian speakers and a very pro-Russian sentiment. Other areas this is not the case.

[clandestino]

I don't believe in this over-night created nations and people like Ukraine and Ukrainians (litteraly meaning ''frontier'' and ''frontiermen'' ), I mean what Ukrainians learn about their national history in schools? Are they learning that ''Ukraine'' was core of the first Russian state and that Kiev was capital of Russia and seat of Russian church 'till 1241 or they are learning that very name of Ukraine was first time mentioned only in 15th century when it simply denoted no man's land between Poland, Russia and Crimean khanate? Ukraine and Ukrainians are just artificial communist creations aimed at weakening of Russian ethnical corpus in USSR, just as Belarusians. Personally I support division of Ukraine between Poland and Russia, Poland should get parts were catholics and uniats are in majority while the Russia gets the rest. Oh and Ruthenia should be independent, it's not natural that only state where Rusyns are recognized as nation is Serbia

[Cyreidel]

I don't believe in this over-night created nations and people like Ukraine and Ukrainians (litteraly meaning ''frontier'' and ''frontiermen'' ), I mean what Ukrainians learn about their national history in schools? Are they learning that ''Ukraine'' was core of the first Russian state and that Kiev was capital of Russia and seat of Russian church 'till 1241 or they are learning that very name of Ukraine was first time mentioned only in 15th century when it simply denoted no man's land between Poland, Russia and Crimean khanate? Ukraine and Ukrainians are just artificial communist creations aimed at weakening of Russian ethnical corpus in USSR, just as Belarusians. Personally I support division of Ukraine between Poland and Russia, Poland should get parts were catholics and uniats are in majority while the Russia gets the rest. Oh and Ruthenia should be independent, it's not natural that only state where Rusyns are recognized as nation is Serbia

So, a different language (Yet similar) and some major cultural diffrences don't make Ukraine and Belarus a nation?

[Tiberios]

Yeah you must remember all the good things Russia has done for Ukraine, you know the Holodomor and such

So their is no reason they should have independence

[Jaketh]

all the nations over there will be united with Russia again

[shadyrome]

all the nations over there will be united with Russia again

And become soviet union again?

[corpse helvetica]

please. Russia has violent problems in several border regions and Russia itself is governed by inefficient soviet style yet some want to add more problems to Kremlin by uniting Ukraine and Russia?



Many here note how Ukraine should appease Kremlin because of this and that, but why nobody demands "first step" from Moscow?

The problem is for former USSR "states" that for Moscow they still belong to Kremlin's sphere and therefore first step for friendlier relations with Moscow would be recognizing Moscow's authority in business, political alliances, military sphere, etc.Also it would mean demand to cut links with west ( at least in areas where Kremlin smells competition).