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    Default Stratfor article about Biden’s visit to Georgia and Ukraine

    Old bastard in action - "The Russians certainly now understand what it means to hit the reset button Obama had referred to: The reset is back to the 1980s and 1990s."

    "Biden has stated the American strategy: squeeze the Russians and let nature take its course. We suspect the Russians will squeeze back hard before they move off the stage of history."


    "The Russian Economy and Russian Power

    By George Friedman
    July 27, 2009 | 1541 GMT

    U.S. Vice President Joe Biden’s visit to Georgia and Ukraine partly answered questions over how U.S.-Russian talks went during U.S. President Barack Obama’s visit to Russia in early July. That Biden’s visit took place at all reaffirms the U.S. commitment to the principle that Russia does not have the right to a sphere of influence in these countries or anywhere in the former Soviet Union.

    The Americans’ willingness to confront the Russians on an issue of fundamental national interest to Russia therefore requires some explanation, as on the surface it seems a high-risk maneuver. Biden provided insights into the analytic framework of the Obama administration on Russia in a July 26 interview with The Wall Street Journal. In it, Biden said the United States “vastly” underestimates its hand. He added that “Russia has to make some very difficult, calculated decisions. They have a shrinking population base, they have a withering economy, they have a banking sector and structure that is not likely to be able to withstand the next 15 years, they’re in a situation where the world is changing before them and they’re clinging to something in the past that is not sustainable.”
    U.S. Policy Continuity

    The Russians have accused the United States of supporting pro-American forces in Ukraine, Georgia and other countries of the former Soviet Union under the cover of supporting democracy. They see the U.S. goal as surrounding the Soviet Union with pro-American states to put the future of the Russian Federation at risk. The summer 2008 Russian military action in Georgia was intended to deliver a message to the United States and the countries of the former Soviet Union that Russia was not prepared to tolerate such developments but was prepared to reverse them by force of arms if need be.

    Following his July summit, Obama sent Biden to the two most sensitive countries in the former Soviet Union — Ukraine and Georgia — to let the Russians know that the United States was not backing off its strategy in spite of Russian military superiority in the immediate region. In the long run, the United States is much more powerful than the Russians, and Biden was correct when he explicitly noted Russia’s failing demographics as a principal factor in Moscow’s long-term decline. But to paraphrase a noted economist, we don’t live in the long run. Right now, the Russian correlation of forces along Russia’s frontiers clearly favors the Russians, and the major U.S. deployments in Iraq and Afghanistan would prevent the Americans from intervening should the Russians choose to challenge pro-American governments in the former Soviet Union directly.

    Even so, Biden’s visit and interview show the Obama administration is maintaining the U.S. stance on Russia that has been in place since the Reagan years. Reagan saw the economy as Russia’s basic weakness. He felt that the greater the pressure on the Russian economy, the more forthcoming the Russians would be on geopolitical matters. The more concessions they made on geopolitical matters, the weaker their hold on Eastern Europe. And if Reagan’s demand that Russia “Tear down this wall, Mr. Gorbachev” was met, the Soviets would collapse. Ever since the Reagan administration, the idee fixe of not only the United States, but also NATO, China and Japan has been that the weakness of the Russian economy made it impossible for the Russians to play a significant regional role, let alone a global one. Therefore, regardless of Russian wishes, the West was free to forge whatever relations it wanted among Russian allies like Serbia and within the former Soviet Union. And certainly during the 1990s, Russia was paralyzed.

    Biden, however, is saying that whatever the current temporary regional advantage the Russians might have, in the end, their economy is crippled and Russia is not a country to be taken seriously. He went on publicly to point out that this should not be pointed out publicly, as there is no value in embarrassing Russia. The Russians certainly now understand what it means to hit the reset button Obama had referred to: The reset is back to the 1980s and 1990s.
    Reset to the 1980s and 90s

    To calculate the Russian response, it is important to consider how someone like Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin views the events of the 1980s and 1990s. After all, Putin was a KGB officer under Yuri Andropov, the former head of the KGB and later Chairman of the Communist Party for a short time — and the architect of glasnost and perestroika.

    It was the KGB that realized first that the Soviet Union was failing, which made sense because only the KGB had a comprehensive sense of the state of the Soviet Union. Andropov’s strategy was to shift from technology transfer through espionage — apparently Putin’s mission as a junior intelligence officer in Dresden in the former East Germany — to a more formal process of technology transfer. To induce the West to transfer technology and to invest in the Soviet Union, Moscow had to make substantial concessions in the area in which the West cared the most: geopolitics. To get what it needed, the Soviets had to dial back on the Cold War.

    Glasnost, or openness, had as its price reducing the threat to the West. But the greater part of the puzzle was perestroika, or the restructuring of the Soviet economy. This was where the greatest risk came, since the entire social and political structure of the Soviet Union was built around a command economy. But that economy was no longer functioning, and without perestroika, all of the investment and technology transfer would be meaningless. The Soviet Union could not metabolize it.

    Former Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev was a communist, as we seem to forget, and a follower of Andropov. He was not a liberalizer because he saw liberalization as a virtue; rather, he saw it as a means to an end. And that end was saving the Communist Party, and with it the Soviet state. Gorbachev also understood that the twin challenge of concessions to the West geopolitically and a top-down revolution in Russia economically — simultaneously—risked massive destabilization. This is what Reagan was counting on, and what Gorbachev was trying to prevent. Gorbachev lost Andropov’s gamble. The Soviet Union collapsed, and with it the Communist Party.

    What followed was a decade of economic horror, at least as most Russians viewed it. From the West’s point of view, collapse looked like liberalization. From the Russian point of view, Russia went from a superpower that was poor to an even poorer geopolitical cripple. For the Russians, the experiment was a double failure. Not only did the Russian Empire retreat to the borders of the 18th century, but the economy became even more dysfunctional, except for a handful of oligarchs and some of their Western associates who stole whatever wasn’t nailed down.

    The Russians, and particularly Putin, took away a different lesson than the West did. The West assumed that economic dysfunction caused the Soviet Union to fail. Putin and his colleagues took away the idea that it was the attempt to repair economic dysfunction through wholesale reforms that caused Russia to fail. From Putin’s point of view, economic well-being and national power do not necessarily work in tandem where Russia is concerned.
    Russian Power, With or Without Prosperity

    Russia has been an economic wreck for most of its history, both under the czars and under the Soviets. The geography of Russia has a range of weaknesses, as we have explored. Russia’s geography, daunting infrastructural challenges and demographic structure all conspire against it. But the strategic power of Russia was never synchronized to its economic well-being. Certainly, following World War II the Russian economy was shattered and never quite came back together. Yet Russian global power was still enormous. A look at the crushing poverty — but undeniable power — of Russia during broad swaths of time from 1600 until Andropov arrived on the scene certainly gives credence to Putin’s view.

    The problems of the 1980s had as much to do with the weakening and corruption of the Communist Party under former Soviet leader Leonid Brezhnev as it had to do with intrinsic economic weakness. To put it differently, the Soviet Union was an economic wreck under Joseph Stalin as well. The Germans made a massive mistake in confusing Soviet economic weakness with military weakness. During the Cold War, the United States did not make that mistake. It understood that Soviet economic weakness did not track with Russian strategic power. Moscow might not be able to house its people, but its military power was not to be dismissed.

    What made an economic cripple into a military giant was political power. Both the czar and the Communist Party maintained a ruthless degree of control over society. That meant Moscow could divert resources from consumption to the military and suppress resistance. In a state run by terror, dissatisfaction with the state of the economy does not translate into either policy shifts or military weakness — and certainly not in the short term. Huge percentages of gross domestic product can be devoted to military purposes, even if used inefficiently there. Repression and terror smooth over public opinion.

    The czar used repression widely, and it was not until the army itself rebelled in World War I that the regime collapsed. Under Stalin, even at the worst moments of World War II, the army did not rebel. In both regimes, economic dysfunction was accepted as the inevitable price of strategic power. And dissent — even the hint of dissent — was dealt with by the only truly efficient state enterprise: the security apparatus, whether called the Okhraina, Cheka, NKVD, MGB or KGB.

    From the point of view of Putin, who has called the Soviet collapse the greatest tragedy of our time, the problem was not economic dysfunction. Rather, it was the attempt to completely overhaul the Soviet Union’s foreign and domestic policies simultaneously that led to the collapse of the Soviet Union. And that collapse did not lead to an economic renaissance.

    Biden might not have meant to gloat, but he drove home the point that Putin believes. For Putin, the West, and particularly the United States, engineered the fall of the Soviet Union by policies crafted by the Reagan administration — and that same policy remains in place under the Obama administration.

    It is not clear that Putin and Russian President Dmitri Medvedev disagree with Biden’s analysis — the Russian economy truly is “withering” — except in one sense. Given the policies Putin has pursued, the Russian prime minister must believe he has a way to cope with that. In the short run, Putin might well have such a coping mechanism, and this is the temporary window of opportunity Biden alluded to. But in the long run, the solution is not improving the economy — that would be difficult, if not outright impossible, for a country as large and lightly populated as Russia. Rather, the solution is accepting that Russia’s economic weakness is endemic and creating a regime that allows Russia to be a great power in spite of that.

    Such a regime is the one that can create military power in the face of broad poverty, something we will call the “Chekist state.” This state uses its security apparatus, now known as the FSB, to control the public through repression, freeing the state to allocate resources to the military as needed. In other words, this is Putin coming full circle to his KGB roots, but without the teachings of an Andropov or Gorbachev to confuse the issue. This is not an ideological stance; it applies to the Romanovs and to the Bolsheviks. It is an operational principle embedded in Russian geopolitics and history.

    Counting on Russian strategic power to track Russian economic power is risky. Certainly, it did in the 1980s and 1990s, but Putin has worked to decouple the two. On the surface, it might seem a futile gesture, but in Russian history, this decoupling is the norm. Obama seems to understand this to the extent that he has tried to play off Medvedev (who appears less traditional) from Putin (who appears to be the more traditional), but we do not think this is a viable strategy — this is not a matter of Russian political personalities but of Russian geopolitical necessity.

    Biden seems to be saying that the Reagan strategy can play itself out permanently. Our view is that it plays itself out only so long as the Russian regime doesn’t reassert itself with the full power of the security apparatus and doesn’t decouple economic and military growth. Biden’s strategy works so long as this doesn’t happen. But in Russian history, this decoupling is the norm and the past 20 years is the exception.

    A strategy that assumes the Russians will once again decouple economic and military power requires a different response than ongoing, subcritical pressure. It requires that the window of opportunity the United States has handed Russia by its wars in the Islamic world be closed, and that the pressure on Russia be dramatically increased before the Russians move toward full repression and rapid rearmament.

    Ironically, in the very long run of the next couple of generations, it probably doesn’t matter whether the West heads off Russia at the pass because of another factor Biden mentioned: Russia’s shrinking demographics. Russian demography has been steadily worsening since World War I, particularly because birth rates have fallen. This slow-motion degradation turned into collapse during the 1990s. Russia’s birth rates are now well below starkly higher death rates; Russia already has more citizens in their 50s than in their teens. Russia can be a major power without a solid economy, but no one can be a major power without people. But even with demographics as poor as Russia’s, demographics do not change a country overnight. This is Russia’s moment, and the generation or so it will take demography to grind Russia down can be made very painful for the Americans.

    Biden has stated the American strategy: squeeze the Russians and let nature take its course. We suspect the Russians will squeeze back hard before they move off the stage of history."
    http://www.stratfor.com/weekly/20090...t=textversion2

  2. #2
    Pious Agnost's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: Stratfor article about Biden’s visit to Georgia and Ukraine



    I understand if that is the goal, fine, keeping the stage, nothing new.

    BUT ANNOUNCING IT OUT LOUD?!?!

  3. #3

    Default Re: Stratfor article about Biden’s visit to Georgia and Ukraine

    5 mins after swearing in Obama should have yelled SWARM, SWARM and Biden would have been carted off to a tiny cell for 4 years where he can do no harm to anyone with his comments. Hell maybe we need a new cabinet position, Sect of Stuffing a Sock in Biden's Mouth. Atleast it would be relatively small new section of goverment, 1 person provided with 1460 socks.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Stratfor article about Biden’s visit to Georgia and Ukraine

    those who hope that under uncontrolled Russian president Kremlin becomes to benevolent neighbor, are naive.

    Ask from yourselves - why czar needs total power? To use resources as he sees fit w/o fearing negative reaction from masses. And Putin has reestablished before mentioned system...

  5. #5

    Default Re: Stratfor article about Biden’s visit to Georgia and Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by danzig View Post
    Sect of Stuffing a Sock in Biden's Mouth. Atleast it would be relatively small new section of goverment, 1 person provided with 1460 socks.
    That would require at least 5 co-secretaries.

    On the other hand, the extra sock factories would create thousands of jobs...

  6. #6
    Hansa's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Stratfor article about Biden’s visit to Georgia and Ukraine

    If Biden did indeed say this out loud than he is a far bigger idiot than I thought. I knew he was something of a loose cannon, but this is absolutely moronic. I believe Obama needs to find a new running mate for the next election. This is straight out offending a major power; publicly.
    GEIR HASUND!

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  7. #7

    Default Re: Stratfor article about Biden’s visit to Georgia and Ukraine

    biden is retarded, that simple.
    I come in peace, I didn't bring artillery. But I am pleading with you with tears in my eyes: If you F___ with me, I'll kill you all.
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  8. #8
    Hiero of Syracuse's Avatar Ducenarius
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    Default Re: Stratfor article about Biden’s visit to Georgia and Ukraine

    Biden you're the funniest guy in the world, but I fear what will happen now that one of the more important men just announced such a plan.
    I wear the chain I forged in life, I made it link by link and yard by yard. Is it's pattern strange to you? How would you know of length of the strong coil you bear yourself? It was as full, as heavy, and as long as this seven christmas eve's ago, you have labored on it since, it's a ponderous chain!
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  9. #9
    CarbEast's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Stratfor article about Biden’s visit to Georgia and Ukraine

    That's how Russia-America talks were proceeding lately:



    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CjZPCo_Cf_0

    But don't get it in your head that Russians tend to become suspicious after things like that. In the end it's all because they paranoid and aggressive.
    Last edited by CarbEast; July 28, 2009 at 05:21 PM.

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  10. #10

    Default Re: Stratfor article about Biden’s visit to Georgia and Ukraine

    Proof, from the US government itself, that America is still in a Cold War mentality and doing everything it can to collapse Russia. Now that this is announced, don't be surprised that Russia goes in it's own Cold War mentality and becomes completely anti-Western instead of trying to exist along side the West in peace.

    EDIT: Here is the Russian reaction. Obviously, they aren't too pleased:

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090727/...u/eu_russia_us

    MOSCOW – An interview U.S. Vice President Joe Biden gave to an American newspaper was front-page news Monday in Moscow, where his characterization of Russia as a weakened nation hit a raw nerve.
    Biden said Russia's economic difficulties are likely to make the Kremlin more willing to cooperate with the United States on a range of national security issues.
    "I think we vastly underestimate the hand that we hold," he said in an interview to The Wall Street Journal published Saturday.
    Biden's comments appeared to catch the Kremlin by surprise, coming less than three weeks after President Barack Obama said on a visit to Moscow that the U.S. wants to see a "strong, peaceful and prosperous Russia."
    "It raises the question: Who is shaping U.S. foreign policy? The president or members of his team, even the most respected ones?" said Kremlin foreign policy adviser Sergei Prikhodko.
    White House spokesman Robert Gibbs on Monday downplayed suggestions that Biden was setting a different U.S. policy from that laid out by the president.
    When asked whether Obama thought Biden had gone too far in his remarks, Gibbs said the president stated his views on Russia during his recent visit and the vice president agrees with those views.
    Gibbs said both leaders believe Russia will do its part to improve relations with the U.S.
    Most Russian newspapers put Biden's interview on their front pages Monday, with headlines casting doubt on Washington's commitment to forge a more constructive relationship with Moscow.
    "Joe Biden unexpectedly returned to the rhetoric of the previous Bush administration," the newspaper Kommersant wrote.
    Moskovsky Komsomolets said Biden, with his "boorish openness," showed what the Obama administration really thinks about Russia. "We should respond to the Yankees in the same way," the newspaper wrote. "Any other language, unfortunately or fortunately, they do not understand."
    The papers jumped on Biden's comments about Russia's demographic and economic problems.
    "They have a shrinking population base, they have a withering economy, they have a banking sector and structure that is not likely to be able to withstand the next 15 years, they're in a situation where the world is changing before them and they're clinging to something in the past that is not sustainable," Biden said in the interview.
    Some newspapers and commentators noted that Russians say the same things about themselves. The question, they said, was why Biden made the comments so quickly after this month's summit by Obama and President Dmitry Medvedev, and after Biden's own trip last week to Ukraine and Georgia, former Soviet republics whose growing ties to the West are deeply resented in Moscow.
    Sergei Rogov, director of the government-funded USA and Canada Institute, was quoted in Kommersant as saying the interview was aimed in part at addressing criticism in the U.S. that the Obama administration was too soft on Russia.
    Some commentators said it was wrong to see Biden as diverging from the policy set by Obama, as suggested by Prikhodko.
    Biden was most likely expressing Washington's "Plan B," said Vladimir Milov, a former deputy energy minister who now heads his own think tank. If the Kremlin proves unwilling to compromise, the United States was likely to reduce relations to a minimum and push Moscow to the periphery of world politics, Milov wrote in the online Gazeta.ru.
    U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton made an apparent effort Sunday to reassure Moscow, saying on NBC "Meet the Press" that the administration considers Russia to be a "great power."
    "Every country faces challenges," she said. "We have our challenges, Russia has their challenges. There are certain issues that Russia has to deal with on its own."
    ___
    Associated Press writer Julie Pace in Washington contributed to this report.
    Last edited by Applesmack; July 28, 2009 at 06:11 PM.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Stratfor article about Biden’s visit to Georgia and Ukraine

    was this comment bidens idea, or some sort of elaborate scheme by obama? what you think?
    "I have not escaped punishment, as some may imagine; I am punished every hour I live for the folly of my life, and what it drove me to do. My enemy and I were mined from the same mortal seam; cast into the same furnace of creation, our images impressed on opposite sides of the same coin, separate, but not distinct, conjoined by some fatal alchemy. I killed him; but in doing so, I killed the best part of myself." -E.G.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Stratfor article about Biden’s visit to Georgia and Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by yar0 View Post
    was this comment bidens idea, or some sort of elaborate scheme by obama? what you think?
    Given Biden's track record this was his own (un)doing since he has a history of doing this. Yes he is just confirming that pretty much everyone knows, there is never going to be a reset between relations with Russia and US. They dont trust us, we dont trust them, they like to undermine us and we them.

  13. #13
    Panzerbear's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Stratfor article about Biden’s visit to Georgia and Ukraine

    so who is it actually that decides matter of foreign policy in the United States, is it president Obama or vice-president Biden? because you guys better get your shite together, because "the nature" (i.e. unintended consequences) might very well take its course.

    the bottom line is, geopolitically speaking, that sooner or later China will emerge as a superpower within next 20-30 years, and the West should decide very quickly whether they want Russia to be their close friend or their foe's closest ally. with publicity stunts such as Biden's, it is fairly obvious that Russians might do nothing else but to give all their resources and all their military technology to China in return for vast economic prosperity and bigger role in world politics.

    Throw away all your newspapers!
    Most of you are Libertarians, you just havent figured it out yet.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Stratfor article about Biden’s visit to Georgia and Ukraine

    ah yes make more of something then it is, Biden as always says things that are true but shouldnt be said in public You arent naive you know there is no reset, Russia views as as badly as we view them and it will remain that way. As far as the future goes it can easily go the other way where China simply TAKES it from Russia or Russia basically becomes China's lapdog. Yes I know russian ego wont entertain such a notion, the delusional of returning to a former level of power of influence is much more comforting to the ego.

  15. #15
    Visna's Avatar Comrade Natascha
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    Default Re: Stratfor article about Biden’s visit to Georgia and Ukraine

    Heh, looks like he pulled a Biden. (Again)
    On the other hand he's sort of right. Both the US and Russia share a mutual distrust on some level. But he should definetely be better at picking the right time and wording to use. Or just not say it at all...

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  16. #16
    Panzerbear's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Stratfor article about Biden’s visit to Georgia and Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by danzig View Post
    As far as the future goes it can easily go the other way where China simply TAKES it from Russia or Russia basically becomes China's lapdog.
    and exactly how do you expect this to happen? Chinese secret services penetrating Russian border in small groups of 4-6 million ?

    Throw away all your newspapers!
    Most of you are Libertarians, you just havent figured it out yet.

  17. #17

    Default Re: Stratfor article about Biden’s visit to Georgia and Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Panzerbear View Post
    and exactly how do you expect this to happen? Chinese secret services penetrating Russian border in small groups of 4-6 million ?

    "The great offensive, the slow retreat, and quick infiltration by small groups of 1 - 2 million."

  18. #18

    Default Re: Stratfor article about Biden’s visit to Georgia and Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Panzerbear View Post
    and exactly how do you expect this to happen? Chinese secret services penetrating Russian border in small groups of 4-6 million ?
    It is as likely as your russia being vaulted back into a position of power.

  19. #19
    s.rwitt's Avatar Shamb Conspiracy Member
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    Default Re: Stratfor article about Biden’s visit to Georgia and Ukraine

    If Biden did indeed say this out loud than he is a far bigger idiot than I thought. I knew he was something of a loose cannon, but this is absolutely moronic. I believe Obama needs to find a new running mate for the next election. This is straight out offending a major power; publicly.
    Russia's not a major power, but yes Biden is indeed an idiot. He's just like Robert Gibbs, just too plain stupid to be in such a position.

  20. #20
    Panzerbear's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Stratfor article about Biden’s visit to Georgia and Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by s.rwitt View Post
    Russia's not a major power
    in that case, what is? actually that was a rethoric question, because I don't care what you think about Russia.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_p...f_the_Cold_War
    Last edited by Panzerbear; July 28, 2009 at 11:31 PM.

    Throw away all your newspapers!
    Most of you are Libertarians, you just havent figured it out yet.

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