Discussion: The Greatest Diadochi Kingdom

[Sardaukar One]

I kinda agree with you about Korupedion. It gave Seleucus nominal control of all of Alexander's empire outside of Egypt, Cyprus and the Levant.
But when he was murdered by Ptolemy Ceraunus, his empire very much came crumbling down around his son, Antiochus I. It was quite a feat keeping ahold of what he did.
Compare that to the kingdom of Antigonus when he was killed at Ipsus.
Demetrius was able to retire with 10,000 men(most likely the cavalry) after Ipsus.
A fair amount of the cities of Asia Minor stayed loyal. Including Ephesus.
Add that to Cyprus, Tyre, Sidon and his garrisons in Greece(Peloponese mainly), such as Corinth, the Empire of Antigonus seemed to be a far more well founded one than that of the Seleucids.
Had Demetrius been a more focused individual, he might well have been able to have done more in Asia.

Seleucus should probably have taken more time to consolidate his hold on Asia Minor.
But it was probaly also quite imperative he get to Europe quickly before someone took over in his place.
The soldiers of Lysimachus in Europe didn't seem to have a big problem with Ceraunus murdering Seleucus after all.

Still, I do think Korupedion should be up there with Ipsus. Of course, its highly doubtful that Korupedion had anywhere near the armament present that fought at Ipsus.

The Diadoch wars are called as such because all the Successors fought in each and every one of them.
In these four wars, each and everyone of the Diadochs was engaged in war against another.
Ptolemy took no part in the war between Seleucus and Lysimachus. Nor did Antigonus Gonatas.
Consequently, its not one of the Diadoch wars.
Though I do see your point as to why it should be one of the successor wars. I also understand why its not considered the fifth diadoch war.

As for Perdiccas, after Babylon he played the hands dealt him very poorly.
I'll grant that Antigonus played his part in the war between Antipater and Craterus on the one side and Perdiccas on the other, but Perdiccas has to share a chunk of the blame too.

[Cal20]

TL;DR

[death to the romans]

i am amazed by so much information.
but, who was that Leonnatus you told about?

[Sardaukar One]

Leonnatos was a bodygaurd of Alexander; and one of a few number of bodygaurds who helped him when he got stuck on the wall in that Mallian city and was injured.
Peukestas saved Alexander's life, but Leonnatos did his part also.

When Alexander died, there was a brief power struggle between Perdiccas, who had the loyalty of the cavalry, of which Leonnatos had a command, and Meleagros who had the loyalty of the infantry.
Meleagros commanded one of the phalanx brigades.
I think he represented the view of the common soldiers as oppossed to that of the Hypaspists or Silver shields. It seems to me that the Hypaspists for sure would have been in the camp of Perdiccas.
Leonnatos helped Perdiccas gain the upperhand over Meleagros. He led the cavalry and elephants in cowing the infantry back into line.
Meleagros was subsequently killed.

Leonnatos seems to not have been too happy with his allotement of Hellespont Phrygia, despite its strategic importance. He may or may not have been influenced by Antigonus. Though it seems he certainly must have considered himself in the same boat as Antigonus when they were both ordered to conquer Cappadocia on behalf of Eumenes.
Leonnatos had a lot more troops than Antigonus, but apparently not enough to take on an invasion of Cappadocia. The amount of troops he had when he marched to relieve Antipater, 20,000 infantry and 1500 cavalry (Diodorus 18. 14-15) seem to fall short of those numbers reported for the Cappadocian king Ariarathes, who had an army of 30,000 infantry and 15,000 cavalry (Diodorus 18. 16. 2).
And many of these troops Leonnatos had probably recruited when he arrived in Europe.

Kleopatra offered to marry him. This had royal implications. Leonnatos confided in Eumenes his intentions to make a play for the throne (Plutarch's Eumenes & Diodorus 18.12.1).
In Europe, Antipater had his hands full with the Lamian war. Upon word of Alexander's death reaching Greece, the Greek states were making their play for independence.
In fact, the Thessalian cavalry deserted Antipater and he was forced to retire to Lamia where the Greeks were besieging him.
To marry a sister of Alexander and to successfully rescue Antipater might have made him very popular indeed.
Eumenes refused to join him in his return to Europe and he and his forces were able to get away from Leonnatos.

With the Lamian war raging, Leonnatos considered this a valid reason to ignore Perdiccas's order to conquer Cappadocia, and Leonnatos crossed to Europe to assist Antipater in Lamia.
Leonnatos marched to relieve Antipater, but his army was defeated on the way by the greek army who had to give up the siege in order to fight Leonnatos.
Leonnatos was killed, but his army was able to make its way to Antipater in Lamia.
For many, the death of Leonnatos was probably viewed as the removal of a potentially very formidable rival for power.

[Cal20]

I *think* he was an infantry officer under Alexander as well as a close friend and became one of Alexander's close bodyguard, apart from that I don't know much about him.

[Spartan 666]

I am not satanist, I am against ALL religions. I am particularly against christianity because I live in Italy.

[Athenian Alexandros]

I am not satanist, I am against ALL religions. I am particularly against christianity because I live in Italy.

what do you have against religions and what does living in italy have to do with it?

[Spartan 666]

Religion is a way to brain wash people and keep them under control.
Italy is an awful country also because here we have the Church and the Pope.

Anyway I'd say to stop this flame here and discuss only about Diadochi.

[Athenian Alexandros]

Religion is a way to brain wash people and keep them under control.
Italy is an awful country also because here we have the Church and the Pope.

Anyway I'd say to stop this flame here and discuss only about Diadochi.

your right , this is a diadochi discussion , but religion isnt a brainwashing method , its a way for people to embrace spiritual needs. But aside from that id love to visit italy and see Rome , what part of italy do you live in?

[Sardaukar One]

I'm not sure that brainwashed is the way to describe people who "embrace" religion!
Indoctrinated is a far better description.

Spiritual? Oh yeah, religion and spiritual possession! I get it now!

"Religion is the fire in which the world burns!"

If it weren't for religion, we wouldn't have imbeciles like George Bush and Sarah Palin in positions of power!
Things would be a lot safer too!

But I digress.

@ CAL20

When did Eumenes of Cardia beat Antigonus?

Antigonus virtually annhilated him in Asia Minor at Orkynia(319 BC). He had far fewer troops too!
Admittedly, Antigonus tampered with some of Eumenes' cavalry, but all the same, he cleaned Eumenes' clock. To add insult to injury, Antigonus made off with the baggage of Eumenes' army after the battle.

Paraitakene ; Sure, Eumenes inflicted more casualties, thanks basically to the Silver Shields, but Antigonus won the cavalry battle. The one that forced the Silver Shields and the rest of the phalanx to stop its advance. Antigonus was able to reform his army, but night set in and both sides retired.
Not exactly your normal run of the mill victory!

Gabiene ; Basically a reverse of Paraitakene. Both of Eumenes' flank got snookered for one reason or another. One being Antigonus flattened one flank in a cavalry charge. Peukestas, having no heavy cavalry, buggered off. While trying to rally his right wing cavalry, Antigonus got between Eumenes and Eumenes' phalanx. Presumably something like what Seleucus did to Demetrius at Ipsus.
Eumenes' phalanx, despite being victorius, was surrounded and being attacked by Peithon and his cavalry.
And if were not for the Silver Shields(yet again), it would have been game, set and match Antigonus.
As it was, the Silver Shields turned what should have been an arse kicking into a draw.
Eumenes might have been able to have gotten his army to fight again after both sides retired.
But yet again, he allowed his baggage train to be stolen by Antigonus.
Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice..................................................!

Eumenes was a very good general. Antigonus was releuctant to kill him. He wanted Eumenes to join him.
Demetrius urged his father to spare Eumenes' life. But Eumenes was simply too dangerous.
Of course, had Eumenes joined Antigonus..................!
Oh well!

Eumenes might well have been loyal to Alexander and his line. But he might just as well have had no choice.
He was a greek amongst Macedonians. Had he sought power in his own right, like Antigonus and Kassander etc, I doubt he would have had any Macedonians behind him. He had some difficulty keeping the Macedonian generals and satraps in line during his campaign with Antigonus in the east.
Which is in stark contrast to the command of Antigonus.
But while fighting in the name of the Kings, here was something that he did share with Macedonians.
Loyalty to the line of Philip and Alexander. Which is the line(real or not) that he used on the Macedonians, the Silver Shields and the Satraps to ultimately win command and to keep it.

Another interesting point about Eumenes that I read was that he ultimately did not understand the character and nature of his men. He failed to gauge the importance of the baggage train and its contents to his soldiers. Not once, but twice. Consequently, he could never combine his aspirations with those of his soldiers.

Antigenes was given a particularly brutal execution.
He was burnt alive in a pit.
Why was he targeted for such a horrible death?
Billows speculates that this is because Antigenes killed a friend of Antigonus, a certain Philotas, who had been sent by Antigonus to try and bribe the Silver Shields when they had first joined Eumenes in Syria.
This mission ultimately failed, and nothing more was heard of Philotas.
Presumably he was killed in a similar(awful) way and Antigenes was responsible.
It would certainly explain the method of execution that Antigenes recieved.

[Spartan 666]

your right , this is a diadochi discussion , but religion isnt a brainwashing method , its a way for people to embrace spiritual needs. But aside from that id love to visit italy and see Rome , what part of italy do you live in?

Italy has good climate, landscape, food, women ...

But an awful government and government class. Also the way of thinking is the same of a bunch of sheep, because of the media-indoctrination (all media belong to King Silvio). The italian people is stupid and coward, they are like a mule that follow the man with a carrot.

I live in the north-east of Italy, some 40miles north of Venice..

[Athenian Alexandros]

Italy has good climate, landscape, food, women ...

But an awful government and government class. Also the way of thinking is the same of a bunch of sheep, because of the media-indoctrination (all media belong to King Silvio). The italian people is stupid and coward, they are like a mule that follow the man with a carrot.

I live in the north-east of Italy, some 40miles north of Venice..

Well , you had me at women , I live in America and ive always wanted to travel to other places

[Perdiccas_Nile]

Italy has good climate, landscape, food, women ...

But an awful government and government class. Also the way of thinking is the same of a bunch of sheep, because of the media-indoctrination (all media belong to King Silvio). The italian people is stupid and coward, they are like a mule that follow the man with a carrot.

I live in the north-east of Italy, some 40miles north of Venice..

I'm british-french (born in france) but my family on my mums side comes from Piedmont north italy (agree with u about religion)

[Cal20]

All is explained by Sardaukar, bow down to the knowledge . I thought, although not decisive, he had him beat however the baggage train was taken and this is why the Silver Shields turned him over. I must have been incorrect. If he lost the baggage twice no wonder the Silver Shields turned him over, they were decisive in staving off two defeats then he loses the baggage that was theirs.. oops. Where do you read up on this btw, books/sources whatever?

@ Spartan: Hearing some of the stuff Silvio gets away with is unreal! But I guess you can when you control most of the media outlets in a country. Wasn't he recently caught admitting to having several ancient Roman archaeological sites on one of his properties? Which is illegal not to notify the authorities. Well I guess what he does is just as bad as some of the politicians in the UK, not to mention the rest of the world.

[Sardaukar One]

There are three major engagements between Antigonus and Eumenes.

After the defeat and death of Perdiccas in Egypt, Antigonus demanded, and got the task of defeating the remaining Perdiccan forces in Asia Minor, of which Eumenes was a part.

Antigonus was able to do a troop exchange with Antipater, where he got a reliable body of Macedonian troops. The Royal army had been on the same side as the forces they were suppossed to fight.
And they had been mutinous.
In any event, Antigonus fought Eumenes at the battle of Orkynia, and by hook and crook he won a convincing victory, killin 8,000 of Eumenes soldiers despite having significantly fewer troops.
Any chance Eumenes had of restoring things evapourated when Antigonus took his baggage train.

Eumenes was able to escape, but Antigonus eventually hemmed him into Nora(fortress) where discussions opened to his surrender. Eumenes offered terms, what they were I don't know, and Antigonus thought it best to send the terms to Antipater in Europe.

Antipater died of course, and Eumenes tricked the Antigonid officers into swearing an oath to the Kings, instead of Antigonus. They released him and he then started to recruit troops etc, etc.


There is no doubt that at Paraitakene Eumenes inflicted more casualties. Significantly more.
But both sides ultimately retired. And Antigonus retained possession of the battlefield if memory serves me right. Whatever that counts for?
Had it not been for a well timed cavalry charge by Antigonus, it very well could have been game, set and match for Eumenes.
Still, most people tend to view Paraitakene as a draw. As I do.

Gabiene seems to have been somewhat more even.
Antigonus won on both wings. Antigonus won the flank battles, but lost in the centre.
I expect casualties were far more even in this battle.
Perhaps even in Antigonus' favor.
But again, the battle of Gabiene is generally considered a draw. And I agree.
But of course, Eumenes got his baggage train stolen, yet again.
And the rest, as they say, is history.

I take my hat off to Eumenes all the same. Unfortunately, he ran into an Antigonus at the top of his game.
That he basically played him to two draws is impressive. Had he not lost his baggage train, who knows what might have happened?

The Antigonus that bettered Eumenes would never have lost the Ipsus campaign.
Which speaks volumes about Eumenes.

[Cal20]

Cheers for the information . That's why I quite like Eumenes, a bit of an under dog. Although he failed as you say he managed to come off with two draws against Antigonus. I am not too sure so this is so apologies if I'm wrong. But did Eumenes even command any troops when he was serving with Alexander? Just I know he was more of a private secretary to Philip and I thought he would have continued that role to Alexander. If so he must have been quite inexperienced in commanding troops first hand, therefore being able to fight these battles relatively well against an experienced general such as Antigonus is quite impressive. Like I say correct me if i'm wrong i'm not too sure .

[Spartan 666]

Spartan: Hearing some of the stuff Silvio gets away with is unreal! But I guess you can when you control most of the media outlets in a country. Wasn't he recently caught admitting to having several ancient Roman archaeological sites on one of his properties? Which is illegal not to notify the authorities. Well I guess what he does is just as bad as some of the politicians in the UK, not to mention the rest of the world.

I'd be surprised to know of something LEGAL he does...the worst thing is that the majority of this bunch of sheep called "italian people" would follow him down an abyss. That's the inconvenient of democracy and of giving everyone the right to vote.

About the sources Sardaukar is posting...in Wikipedia you can find a nice page about the Wars of the Diadochi, but it's not that good. It's better for you to search with a searching engine some articles or books written by historians.

I have more or less the very same informations provided by Sardaukar, I got them from an Italian History site http://cronologia.leonardo.it/

[Sardaukar One]

I already posted the link to Wiki about the Diadoch wars in a prior post on this thread.
And while it gives a good overview, a closer look shows some flaws.

Most of my info comes from books I have.

I'll post a list of all the books I have.

[Sardaukar One]

Eumenes also defeated Craterus in battle. And Craterus was killed.

That I am aware of, Eumenes did not have a command under Alexander.
He may have commanded some troops here and there of course, but that I know of, he had no independent command under Alexander.

It is suprising that he came from nowhere and was duking it out with generals such as Antigonus and Craterus.
Still, he was personal secretary to Alexander. It figures something would rub off.

I think you are right. Eumenes was secretary to Phillip.

I would add that Eumenes almost certainly would have had military training in his upbringing. So perhaps it was just a matter of getting a chance to show off his military talents?

[messiah]

Sardaukar One, can I please have your brain?