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  1. #1
    Ebusitanus's Avatar Senator
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    Default US Soldiers Describe Iraq Horrors

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090726/...ldier_slayings

    Soldiers in Colorado slayings tell of Iraq horrors

    Jul 26, 2009

    COLORADO SPRINGS, Colo. – Soldiers from an Army unit that had 10 infantrymen accused of murder, attempted murder or manslaughter after returning to civilian life described a breakdown in discipline during their Iraq deployment in which troops murdered civilians, a newspaper reported Sunday.

    Some Fort Carson, Colo.-based soldiers have had trouble adjusting to life back in the United States, saying they refused to seek help, or were belittled or punished for seeking help. Others say they were ignored by their commanders, or coped through drug and alcohol abuse before they allegedly committed crimes, The Gazette of Colorado Springs said.

    The Gazette based its report on months of interviews with soldiers and their families, medical and military records, court documents and photographs.

    Several soldiers said unit discipline deteriorated while in Iraq.

    "Toward the end, we were so mad and tired and frustrated," said Daniel Freeman. "You came too close, we lit you up. You didn't stop, we ran your car over with the Bradley," an armored fighting vehicle.

    With each roadside bombing, soldiers would fire in all directions "and just light the whole area up," said Anthony Marquez, a friend of Freeman in the 1st Battalion, 9th Infantry Regiment. "If anyone was around, that was their fault. We smoked 'em."

    Taxi drivers got shot for no reason, and others were dropped off bridges after interrogations, said Marcus Mifflin, who was eventually discharged with post traumatic stress syndrome.

    "You didn't get blamed unless someone could be absolutely sure you did something wrong," he said

    Soldiers interviewed by The Gazette cited lengthy deployments, being sent back into battle after surviving war injuries that would have been fatal in previous conflicts, and engaging in some of the bloodiest combat in Iraq. The soldiers describing those experiences were part of the 3,500-soldier unit now called the 4th Infantry Division's 4th Brigade Combat Team.

    Since 2005, some brigade soldiers also have been involved in brawls, beatings, rapes, DUIs, drug deals, domestic violence, shootings, stabbings, kidnapping and suicides.

    The unit was deployed for a year to Iraq's Sunni Triangle in September 2004. Sixty-four unit soldiers were killed and more than 400 wounded — about double the average for Army brigades in Iraq, according to Fort Carson. In 2007, the unit served a bloody 15-month mission in Baghdad. It's currently deployed to the Khyber Pass region in Afghanistan.

    Marquez was the first in his brigade to kill someone after an Iraq tour. In 2006, he used a stun gun to shock a drug dealer in Widefield, Colo., in a dispute over a marijuana sale, then shot and killed him.

    Marquez's mother, Teresa Hernandez, warned Marquez's sergeant at Fort Carson her son was showing signs of violent behavior, abusing alcohol and pain pills and carrying a gun. "I told them he was a walking time bomb," she said.

    Hernandez said the sergeant later taunted Marquez about her phone call.

    "If I was just a guy off the street, I might have hesitated to shoot," Marquez told The Gazette in the Bent County Correctional Facility, where he is serving a 30-year prison term. "But after Iraq, it was just natural."

    The Army trains soldiers to be that way, said Kenneth Eastridge, an infantry specialist serving 10 years for accessory to murder.

    "The Army pounds it into your head until it is instinct: Kill everybody, kill everybody," he said. "And you do. Then they just think you can just come home and turn it off."

    Both soldiers were wounded, sent back into action and saw friends and officers killed in their first deployment. On numerous occasions, explosions shredded the bodies of civilians, others were slain in sectarian violence — and the unit had to bag the bodies.

    "Guys with drill bits in their eyes," Eastridge said. "Guys with nails in their heads."

    Last week, the Army released a study of soldiers at Fort Carson that found that the trauma of fierce combat and soldier refusals or obstacles to seeking mental health care may have helped drive some to violence at home. It said more study is needed.

    While most unit soldiers coped post-deployment, a handful went on to kill back home in Colorado.

    Many returning soldiers did seek counseling.

    "We're used to seeing people who are depressed and want to hurt themselves. We're trained to deal with that," said Davida Hoffman, director of the privately operated First Choice Counseling Center in Colorado Springs. "But these soldiers were depressed and saying, 'I've got this anger, I want to hurt somebody.' We weren't accustomed to that."

    At Fort Carson, Eastridge and other soldiers said they lied during an army screening about their deployment that was designed to detect potential behavioral problems.

    Sergeants sometimes refused to let soldiers get PTSD help or taunted them, said Andrew Pogany, a former Fort Carson special forces sergeant who investigates complaints for the advocacy group Veterans for America.

    Soldier John Needham described a number of alleged crimes in a December 2007 letter to the Inspector General's Office of Fort Carson. In the letter, obtained by The Gazette, Needham said that a sergeant shot a boy riding a bicycle down the street for no reason.

    Another sergeant shot a man in the head while questioning him, lashed the man's body to his Humvee and drove around the neighborhood. Needham also claimed sergeants removed victims' brains.

    The Army's criminal investigation division interviewed unit soldiers and said it couldn't substantiate the allegations.

    The Army has declared soldiers' mental health a top priority.

    "When we see a problem, we try to identify it and really learn what we can do about it. That is what we are trying to do here," said Maj. Gen. Mark Graham, Fort Carson's commander. "There is a culture and a stigma that needs to change."

    Fort Carson officers are trained to help troops showing stress signs, and the base has doubled its number of behavioral-health counselors. Soldiers seeing an Army doctor for any reason undergo a mental health evaluation.
    Read a napoleonic first hand account of a Hessian serving under the french flag

    Athenians: For ourselves, we shall not trouble you with specious pretenses - either of how we have a right to our empire because we overthrew the Mede, or are now attacking you because of wrong that you have done us- and make a long speech which would not be believed;.......... since you know as well as we do that right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must.

    Part of the Melian Dialogue in The History of the Pelopenessian War by Thucydides.

  2. #2
    Kjertesvein's Avatar Remember to smile
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    Default Re: US Soldiers Describe Iraq Horrors

    Tragic
    Thorolf was thus armed. Then Thorolf became so furious that he cast his shield on his back, and, grasping his halberd with both hands, bounded forward dealing cut and thrust on either side. Men sprang away from him both ways, but he slew many. Thus he cleared the way forward to earl Hring's standard, and then nothing could stop him. He slew the man who bore the earl's standard, and cut down the standard-pole. After that he lunged with his halberd at the earl's breast, driving it right through mail and body, so that it came out at the shoulders; and he lifted him up on the halberd over his head, and planted the butt-end in the ground. There on the weapon the earl breathed out his life in sight of all, both friends and foes. [...] 53, Egil's Saga
    I must tell you here of some amusing tricks the Comte d'Eu played on us. I had made a sort of house for myself in which my knights and I used to eat, sitting so as to get the light from the door, which, as it happened, faced the Comte d'Eu's quarters. The count, who was a very ingenious fellow, had rigged up a miniature ballistic machine with which he could throw stones into my tent. He would watch us as we were having our meal, adjust his machine to suit the length of our table, and then let fly at us, breaking our pots and glasses.
    - The pranks played on the knight Jean de Joinville, 1249, 7th crusade.













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    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    This is the only forum I visit with any sort of frequency and I'm glad it has provided a home for RTR since its own forum went down in 2007. Hopefully my donation along with others from TWC users will help get the site back to its speedy heyday, which will certainly aid us in our endeavor to produce a full conversion mod Rome2.

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    Default Re: US Soldiers Describe Iraq Horrors

    Cut them some slack, they are fighting against terrorism...
    Thorolf was thus armed. Then Thorolf became so furious that he cast his shield on his back, and, grasping his halberd with both hands, bounded forward dealing cut and thrust on either side. Men sprang away from him both ways, but he slew many. Thus he cleared the way forward to earl Hring's standard, and then nothing could stop him. He slew the man who bore the earl's standard, and cut down the standard-pole. After that he lunged with his halberd at the earl's breast, driving it right through mail and body, so that it came out at the shoulders; and he lifted him up on the halberd over his head, and planted the butt-end in the ground. There on the weapon the earl breathed out his life in sight of all, both friends and foes. [...] 53, Egil's Saga
    I must tell you here of some amusing tricks the Comte d'Eu played on us. I had made a sort of house for myself in which my knights and I used to eat, sitting so as to get the light from the door, which, as it happened, faced the Comte d'Eu's quarters. The count, who was a very ingenious fellow, had rigged up a miniature ballistic machine with which he could throw stones into my tent. He would watch us as we were having our meal, adjust his machine to suit the length of our table, and then let fly at us, breaking our pots and glasses.
    - The pranks played on the knight Jean de Joinville, 1249, 7th crusade.













    http://imgur.com/a/DMm19
    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    This is the only forum I visit with any sort of frequency and I'm glad it has provided a home for RTR since its own forum went down in 2007. Hopefully my donation along with others from TWC users will help get the site back to its speedy heyday, which will certainly aid us in our endeavor to produce a full conversion mod Rome2.

  4. #4
    DAVIDE's Avatar QVID MELIVS ROMA?
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    Default Re: US Soldiers Describe Iraq Horrors

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackleaf-Wille View Post
    they are fighting against terrorism...
    actually, i dont see any difference between USA and Sunnites or Shiites

  5. #5

    Default Re: US Soldiers Describe Iraq Horrors

    I'm tired of weak, poorly disciplined troops trying to excuse their behaviour because of stress and an inability to cope with the 'tragedies' they faced in Iraq. Pathetic excuse for soldiers.

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    Alsatian's Avatar Tiro
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    Default Re: US Soldiers Describe Iraq Horrors

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Jin View Post
    I'm tired of weak, poorly disciplined troops trying to excuse their behaviour because of stress and an inability to cope with the 'tragedies' they faced in Iraq. Pathetic excuse for soldiers.
    True, but I wouldn't blame it all on their weakness. After being a warzone, the majority of the soldiers would get on with life, and there's bound to be a few who didn't cope with it.

    The question for me would be how is the US military dealing with those few who do experience this breakdown of morale and spirit?

  7. #7

    Default Re: US Soldiers Describe Iraq Horrors

    Quote Originally Posted by Alsatian View Post
    True, but I wouldn't blame it all on their weakness. After being a warzone, the majority of the soldiers would get on with life, and there's bound to be a few who didn't cope with it.

    The question for me would be how is the US military dealing with those few who do experience this breakdown of morale and spirit?

    There's TONS of options available for service members regarding PTSD and all of that. When you come back from deployment you HAVE to take what's called a post-deployment health assessment survey, which is to assess not only your physical health, but also your mental health. Then five to six months later you have to take a post-deployment re-assessment health survey, and before you deploy again you have to take a pre-deployment health assessment survey.

    In the US military we have a cable network for troops overseas called AFN (Armed Forces Network) and they can't play comercials for products so instead the channels are bombarded with msgs to service members to seek help if they are having problems adjusting. There are family readiness officer's in every unit, and the military will pay for them to go and see psychiatrists. NO commander would ever punish their troops for seeking care. These guys are full of and trying to excuse their bs because of the horrors of war. I've had about enough of these people, and I think there's a disproportionately large number of people doing it compared to previous generations (Korea, WWII), likely because of lessening of values in general but also because a little of these people join the military and want to ship off to war expecting it to be a game of Halo.

    They put out so much information and offer so much help for troops coping with PTSD it's borderline ridiculous, and yet you still have people that come back and do something screwed up and then blame it on "I can't cope and no one will help me so I'm excused from this behaviour".

  8. #8
    NONOPUST's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: US Soldiers Describe Iraq Horrors

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Jin View Post
    There's TONS of options available for service members regarding PTSD and all of that. When you come back from deployment you HAVE to take what's called a post-deployment health assessment survey, which is to assess not only your physical health, but also your mental health. Then five to six months later you have to take a post-deployment re-assessment health survey, and before you deploy again you have to take a pre-deployment health assessment survey.

    In the US military we have a cable network for troops overseas called AFN (Armed Forces Network) and they can't play comercials for products so instead the channels are bombarded with msgs to service members to seek help if they are having problems adjusting. There are family readiness officer's in every unit, and the military will pay for them to go and see psychiatrists. NO commander would ever punish their troops for seeking care. These guys are full of and trying to excuse their bs because of the horrors of war. I've had about enough of these people, and I think there's a disproportionately large number of people doing it compared to previous generations (Korea, WWII), likely because of lessening of values in general but also because a little of these people join the military and want to ship off to war expecting it to be a game of Halo.

    They put out so much information and offer so much help for troops coping with PTSD it's borderline ridiculous, and yet you still have people that come back and do something screwed up and then blame it on "I can't cope and no one will help me so I'm excused from this behaviour".
    Damn. Well if what you say is true, then I agree with you

  9. #9

    Default Re: US Soldiers Describe Iraq Horrors

    I mean look at the movies that come out about Iraq. Home of the Brave, Stop-Loss, etc. It's all about these soldiers having this horrible time coping with the terrors of their experience. Give me a break. There's plenty of terrible to see over there but it doesn't measure up to the stuff veterans have had to slog through in the past. It's just people feeling sorry for themselves, or watching these movies and thinking this is how they should react and be all ridiculously dramatic etc.

  10. #10
    Alsatian's Avatar Tiro
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    Default Re: US Soldiers Describe Iraq Horrors

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Jin View Post
    There's TONS of options available for service members regarding PTSD and all of that. When you come back from deployment you HAVE to take what's called a post-deployment health assessment survey, which is to assess not only your physical health, but also your mental health. Then five to six months later you have to take a post-deployment re-assessment health survey, and before you deploy again you have to take a pre-deployment health assessment survey.

    In the US military we have a cable network for troops overseas called AFN (Armed Forces Network) and they can't play comercials for products so instead the channels are bombarded with msgs to service members to seek help if they are having problems adjusting. There are family readiness officer's in every unit, and the military will pay for them to go and see psychiatrists. NO commander would ever punish their troops for seeking care. These guys are full of and trying to excuse their bs because of the horrors of war. I've had about enough of these people, and I think there's a disproportionately large number of people doing it compared to previous generations (Korea, WWII), likely because of lessening of values in general but also because a little of these people join the military and want to ship off to war expecting it to be a game of Halo.

    They put out so much information and offer so much help for troops coping with PTSD it's borderline ridiculous, and yet you still have people that come back and do something screwed up and then blame it on "I can't cope and no one will help me so I'm excused from this behaviour".
    Thanks for the insight, very informative post.

    So the increase is mostly due to individuals trying to exploit the system and get away with crimes, etc.?

  11. #11

    Default Re: US Soldiers Describe Iraq Horrors

    Quote Originally Posted by Alsatian View Post
    Thanks for the insight, very informative post.

    So the increase is mostly due to individuals trying to exploit the system and get away with crimes, etc.?
    I think there's just a direct correlation to the crimes that are committed and guys trying to blame PTSD for it since there is obviously more awareness about it. Back in the day you committed a war crime and that was it. It was cause of you or your leadership or whatever.

  12. #12
    NONOPUST's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: US Soldiers Describe Iraq Horrors

    Hehe some stuff got deleted

    But on topic. Some of the stuff described is messed up, and I don't know how I would react to it if it was right there in front of me.



    Captain Jin:

    Just wondering to be honest, and not excusing their behavior or slighting you. But maybe that kind of thinking does not really help?

    *shrugs* Sorry if I am out of line.

  13. #13
    Azog 150's Avatar Civitate
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    Default Re: US Soldiers Describe Iraq Horrors

    So is this a problem of lack of training, length of deployment or what? Or are they just the sort of people who probably shouldn't have been allowed in?
    Under the Patronage of Jom!

  14. #14

    Default Re: US Soldiers Describe Iraq Horrors

    A mix of all that. Mainly deployment lengths are too long for Army units, and a lack of training/discipline. Not to mention when you have a land force of one million strong you're going to get your bad apples.

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    Default Re: US Soldiers Describe Iraq Horrors

    Thorolf was thus armed. Then Thorolf became so furious that he cast his shield on his back, and, grasping his halberd with both hands, bounded forward dealing cut and thrust on either side. Men sprang away from him both ways, but he slew many. Thus he cleared the way forward to earl Hring's standard, and then nothing could stop him. He slew the man who bore the earl's standard, and cut down the standard-pole. After that he lunged with his halberd at the earl's breast, driving it right through mail and body, so that it came out at the shoulders; and he lifted him up on the halberd over his head, and planted the butt-end in the ground. There on the weapon the earl breathed out his life in sight of all, both friends and foes. [...] 53, Egil's Saga
    I must tell you here of some amusing tricks the Comte d'Eu played on us. I had made a sort of house for myself in which my knights and I used to eat, sitting so as to get the light from the door, which, as it happened, faced the Comte d'Eu's quarters. The count, who was a very ingenious fellow, had rigged up a miniature ballistic machine with which he could throw stones into my tent. He would watch us as we were having our meal, adjust his machine to suit the length of our table, and then let fly at us, breaking our pots and glasses.
    - The pranks played on the knight Jean de Joinville, 1249, 7th crusade.













    http://imgur.com/a/DMm19
    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    This is the only forum I visit with any sort of frequency and I'm glad it has provided a home for RTR since its own forum went down in 2007. Hopefully my donation along with others from TWC users will help get the site back to its speedy heyday, which will certainly aid us in our endeavor to produce a full conversion mod Rome2.

  16. #16

    Default Re: US Soldiers Describe Iraq Horrors

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackleaf-Wille View Post

    TYT is a worthless bunch, they shouldnt be taken for serious for any of the crap they put out there.

  17. #17
    Kjertesvein's Avatar Remember to smile
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    Default Re: US Soldiers Describe Iraq Horrors

    Quite offtopic and worthless post^ do call something worthless because they have another political position then you.
    Thorolf was thus armed. Then Thorolf became so furious that he cast his shield on his back, and, grasping his halberd with both hands, bounded forward dealing cut and thrust on either side. Men sprang away from him both ways, but he slew many. Thus he cleared the way forward to earl Hring's standard, and then nothing could stop him. He slew the man who bore the earl's standard, and cut down the standard-pole. After that he lunged with his halberd at the earl's breast, driving it right through mail and body, so that it came out at the shoulders; and he lifted him up on the halberd over his head, and planted the butt-end in the ground. There on the weapon the earl breathed out his life in sight of all, both friends and foes. [...] 53, Egil's Saga
    I must tell you here of some amusing tricks the Comte d'Eu played on us. I had made a sort of house for myself in which my knights and I used to eat, sitting so as to get the light from the door, which, as it happened, faced the Comte d'Eu's quarters. The count, who was a very ingenious fellow, had rigged up a miniature ballistic machine with which he could throw stones into my tent. He would watch us as we were having our meal, adjust his machine to suit the length of our table, and then let fly at us, breaking our pots and glasses.
    - The pranks played on the knight Jean de Joinville, 1249, 7th crusade.













    http://imgur.com/a/DMm19
    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    This is the only forum I visit with any sort of frequency and I'm glad it has provided a home for RTR since its own forum went down in 2007. Hopefully my donation along with others from TWC users will help get the site back to its speedy heyday, which will certainly aid us in our endeavor to produce a full conversion mod Rome2.

  18. #18
    nopasties's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: US Soldiers Describe Iraq Horrors

    As far as mental health goes in these cases, the war and conditions of the deployment may explain a guys deterioration. Being messed up never excuses criminal acts and on that I agree with captain Jin. We should not feel sorry for the guys but the fact soldiers are coming back messed up says our society has the responisbility to assess their care and it's availability. I'm not in the middle of this but trying to add objectivity.

  19. #19
    Heinz Guderian's Avatar *takes off trousers
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    Default Re: US Soldiers Describe Iraq Horrors

    What kind of PTSD would make one shoot taxi drivers out of boredom and throw people off bridges? Ah, the price of liberty eh?




  20. #20

    Default Re: US Soldiers Describe Iraq Horrors

    There is no such thing as a war crime. War is the crime.
    But mark me well; Religion is my name;
    An angel once: but now a fury grown,
    Too often talked of, but too little known.

    -Jonathan Swift

    "There's only a few things I'd actually kill for: revenge, jewelry, Father O'Malley's weedwacker..."
    -Bender (Futurama) awesome

    Universal truth is not measured in mass appeal.
    -Immortal Technique

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