Speed of expansion

**Ichon** · July 26, 2009, 07:10 PM

Just curious how speed of expansion is juggled in MTW2? At first when I started playing I choose Genoa as a single city start and central position seemed like fun and expansion certainly seemed slow, now once I've gotten over 15 regions it seems I can speed up hugely. More than I expected actually... I thought the AI armies would be annoyingly large at this point but I don't know if it is because my nearest neighbors have been locked in horrible wars or what.

Playing as Templars current campaign seems to be the same deal. First 30 turns are a struggle to expand and hold on to gains but once past 10 regions it seems a breeze, even easier then Genoa because only Seljuks and Fatimids nearby and they seem a bit passive. At least as Genoa, Aragon and Moors did some nasty surprise naval landings when my armies were away.

Does SS 6.2 address this a bit? I am about done with RTW comparisons but at least in most RTW mods(not vanilla) expansion speed was really slowed down and the larger the empire the more directions attacks came from.

One other question... what exactly do inquisators look for? Just had my first visit and apparently my general passed but it can't be piety they are looking for cause he had only 2. Chivalry? So high dread generals are killed by inquisators or what? I assume dread is preferred sometimes because it affects battle morale of opponents so inquisators a way to make people hide their dread generals etc?

In the Genoa campaign for instance once I reached 20 regions my neighbors were excommunicated so I sold/donated some middle eastern lands to the Templars because they were having trouble vs Fatamids and Seljuks, made peace with those 2 factions for tribute and headed back towards Italy with my best generals and armies etc- I expected a tough fight but 3 kingdoms pretty much rolled over and I reached 40 regions about 20 turns later when I quit and started as Templars because they seemed to have trouble vs 2 large empires.

Ah heck with it, I'll reinstall everything and put in 6.2... I just figured with the initial slow expansion the game would stay like that but it appears momentum grows even faster than in many other TW games.

**JiangZiya** · July 27, 2009, 03:29 AM

you can change the kings purse to slow down expansion. from my experience 6.2 makes the game a bit more difficult as well.

i have yet to play a campaign where i have truly established a legit empire of 30+ provinces, but i assure you, if i did. i would just go crazy and war everyone. that would make it hard.

**bɑne** · July 27, 2009, 04:00 AM

I need to ask - what difficulty setting are you playing on? Seems to me that 6.2 might be the right thing as it increases difficulty by one or two difficulty levels (6.1 hard/very hard = 6.2 medium)

**Deadly Rabbit** · July 27, 2009, 07:07 AM

6.2 makes things a lot tougher. You'll find the first 20-30 turns are often pretty easy, consolidating, grabbing rebel settlements, trade agreements etc. After that, look out. Things get hectic. Multiple factions will form alliance blocs against you, and make life very difficult. The Mongol invasion is truly terrifying, and not just if you're playing an eastern faction. 6.2 is very challenging, but I prefer to play it as part of the RC/RR bundle, so much good content, rosters and tweaks it makes SS a different experience again.

**Ichon** · July 27, 2009, 10:17 AM

I was playing H-VH SS 6.1 with BYG's submod but I am going to reinstall MTW2 and use the 6.2 compilation... though on the first try I couldn't get it to work even after following directions carefully. I'll try again see if there is something I missed with the different patches and fixes and fixes of submods.

The AI forming alliance blocs sounds interesting from 6.2 but I am not sure about the AI liking total war... if that means fight to faction death. Once an AI is losing war pretty badly unless it has very strong allies I'd hope it would settle for peace if given a couple of its regions back.

**bɑne** · July 27, 2009, 01:41 PM

As said elsewere you might need to use the new_exe (kingdoms v.1.3) to play with the 23 april patch applied. I've vassaled (?) more then once with 6.2 - its just a matter of persistence and convincing (keep asking & keep attacking)

**Ichon** · July 27, 2009, 02:40 PM

Originally Posted by bane_tw

As said elsewere you might need to use the new_exe (kingdoms v.1.3) to play with the 23 april patch applied. I've vassaled (?) more then once with 6.2 - its just a matter of persistence and convincing (keep asking & keep attacking)

I am playing now with 1.5 Kingdoms and used the 23 april patch- seems ok so far though I am only 15 turns in with Portugal.

I am not trying to vassal AI most of the time, simply ceasefire when they get into another war vs strong faction and withdraw half my forces to fight elsewhere. If the AI is weaker than me but has strong allies maybe it doesn't agree, but when its weak I hope the total war concept doesn't mean it will choose to fight to the death rather than a 10-15 turn peace to rebuild its forces.

The new 1.3 patch? A new older patch? I'll have to search for it because I didn't see anything about that when I installed April 23rd patch.

BTW- I think you need to install more than 1 Kingdoms campaign... because 6.2 was crashing on reinstall every time until I installed all the Kingdoms campaigns. Then it worked no problem and I installed everything else the same way.

**bɑne** · July 27, 2009, 03:12 PM

The new 1.3 patch? A new older patch?

I didnt say anything about a patch. The zip/rar is called that way in the topic.

So if I installed the compilation mod following these instructions I don't need the 23rd pach or BYG's nobility patch? I did it exactly this way except added those two and re-enabled forts. Now it loads showing SS RR 1.3 etc but CTD just as the load screen goes away.

This "new patch" is right below the download link for the compilation. If it works now then you dont need it

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

I hope the total war concept doesn't mean it will choose to fight to the death rather than a 10-15 turn peace to rebuild its forces.

If the AI accepts vassalage as I said then obviously it wont fight to the death. So NO. They will offer and accept ceasefires and vassalages.

**Vae victis** · July 28, 2009, 12:08 AM

Diplomacy seems to work better in 6.2, but that doesnt mean that the ai wont backstab you. If the ai asks for or accepts peace try to get as much money from it as you can, but be prepred for the war to restart soon. I have yet to meet an ai that keeps its word.

Expansion as Portugal in 6.2 can be tough when you have to deal with both spain and the moors. If you can choose, its best to go against the moors first. At least when you fight them, you dont have to worry about being excomunicated.

The fear of Excommunication is what usually slows my growth in MTW2, especially when I have a larger empire. In 6.2 factions seem to change their relations with you based on your relations with the pope. I always try to keep a diplomat near him at all times to bribe and gift him so that I can expand without being excommunicated.

**Ichon** · July 28, 2009, 01:40 AM

Originally Posted by Vae victis

Diplomacy seems to work better in 6.2, but that doesnt mean that the ai wont backstab you. If the ai asks for or accepts peace try to get as much money from it as you can, but be prepred for the war to restart soon. I have yet to meet an ai that keeps its word.

Expansion as Portugal in 6.2 can be tough when you have to deal with both spain and the moors. If you can choose, its best to go against the moors first. At least when you fight them, you dont have to worry about being excomunicated.

The fear of Excommunication is what usually slows my growth in MTW2, especially when I have a larger empire. In 6.2 factions seem to change their relations with you based on your relations with the pope. I always try to keep a diplomat near him at all times to bribe and gift him so that I can expand without being excommunicated.

Yeah Portugal is quite the challenge in 6.2 although I hadn't noticed that about the Pope yet. Only thing annoying me is how many castles are in Spain! Only found 1 town so far and with BYG's nobility taking so much income my finances are really strained. Can barely support a single 3/4 stack field army with minimum peasant garrisons even with 5 regions and trade with all the neighbors. I chose to ignore the Moors for a bit because Portugal has very crappy spearmen and it will be awhile before I can afford much cavalry so I went north and took all the rebel regions even got Tolouse and Marseilles though I had to give Marseilles to France to get an alliance. The AI is really reulctant to even give trade relations, lol showed Very Demanding when asking for trade! Gave Palma to CastileLeon because I couldn't hold it and wanted to cement alliance but that was worthless because next turn they became vassals of Moors without even a fight. Now I'm scattered all to hell and Arragon decided it is a perfect time to jump me. hehe... and my generals and men are rebellious because of fighting in foreign territories so much. It will be an interesting game... have perfect relations with the Pope so I hope that will be enough to allow me to eliminate Arragon which has 3 regions now after taking Burgos from me. If Moors or Castile jump in too which is possible I will have a hell of a time. Only reason got this far is the treaties with Castile that Portugal starts the game with.

It does make me feel like I am in the Reconquista though... not even thinking about town development. Spending all income on churches and military.

Uusally I found a good way to keep peace with the AI is to ask for tribute of say 449 per turn for 15 turns or something and give the AI 101 in tribute for 16 turns. Which is about +5000 which isn't much but ok when its only a border war.

**Templar Knight** · July 28, 2009, 03:17 AM

well playing the latest version of RR/RC in my Aragorn (spelling?) campaign i have only four regions and it is about turn 50

**Byg** · July 28, 2009, 04:00 AM

Playing the RRRC,6.2 etc compilation + BGRIV version. I'm at turn 130 or so and have just managed to own 6 settlements again (I reached 6 before a few times but they counter attacked after tearing my allies away with diplomacy and I lost them). Playing as Teutons vh/vh.

**Ichon** · July 28, 2009, 09:59 AM

Originally Posted by Byg

Playing the RRRC,6.2 etc compilation + BGRIV version. I'm at turn 130 or so and have just managed to own 6 settlements again (I reached 6 before a few times but they counter attacked after tearing my allies away with diplomacy and I lost them). Playing as Teutons vh/vh.

Yeah it is pretty funny that when I started with Portugal the ranking showed 25th in every category and now 25 turns later with 6 regions and Arragon nearly eliminated it still shows 25th in every category except production. Arragon must have some field army somewhere I haven't seen yet to remain ahead in military. I am playing H-H though not VH because reading the info is said VH was nearly impossible with some factions and Portugal didn't seem to be in the best start position.

**Vae victis** · July 28, 2009, 12:11 PM

Wow, the BYG mod seems to add a lot more life to SS 6.2. Diplomacy seems like it works better in it and there seems like there is more strategy involved in the campaign. I may have to add it to my SS 6.2 install.

In BYG, how vulnerable is a spread out Portugese Empire? I know that If I did that in SS 6.2 I would be toast because diplomacy is still kind of hit and miss. I could be allied with my neighbors, only to have them attack me as soon as they get the chance. I like the idea of having the ai pay you tribute too. Sounds really cool!!!

**Ichon** · July 28, 2009, 02:01 PM

Originally Posted by Vae victis

Wow, the BYG mod seems to add a lot more life to SS 6.2. Diplomacy seems like it works better in it and there seems like there is more strategy involved in the campaign. I may have to add it to my SS 6.2 install.

In BYG, how vulnerable is a spread out Portugese Empire? I know that If I did that in SS 6.2 I would be toast because diplomacy is still kind of hit and miss. I could be allied with my neighbors, only to have them attack me as soon as they get the chance. I like the idea of having the ai pay you tribute too. Sounds really cool!!!

hmm... I am not sure how to say how vulnerable a spread out Portugal is. I pretty much went after every rebel settlement I could reach. A couple were really tough fights. Touluse and Valencia both had 10 star generals and large roving armies plus decent garrisons. At first I thought I had made a mistake when facing the Touluse army... was lucky in that it wasn't able to reach me first move from where it had been sitting next to the french border so I got to fight a bridge battle.

It went like this- Burgos by turn 5, the settlement right next to it forget name, Touluse, Mareilles, Palma, Valencia. Only a merchant making 545 a turn off gold in the Moors territory and managing to negotiate a 1200 one time tribute, and 49 florin a turn tribute from French for map info, trade rights, alliance, and Mareilles saved me, plus alliance and military access treaties with Castile that Portugal starts with. With France holding Mareilles and guarding vs England, HRE, and Genoa that left me only to worry about Moors, Castile, and Aragon. I was worried about the Moors and my experience in 6.1 with Genoa led me to think holding Palma was not a good idea so I sold that to Castile for very meagre money hoping it would buy them off a few turns and solidify them against Moors which alas was a complete waste as they became vassals next turn. Aragon attacked and took Burgos and the other northern settlement while my army had to refit in Valencia a couple turns because of the horrible battle to take it. Luckily Aragon left a small garrison in Burgos and a reinforcement army of 4 peasant and 2 javilenmen captured it and then the other settlement a couple turns later. The council gave a mission to take Barcelona which I was perfectly happy to do and Aragon sent all its armies after my main which replenished itself with mercenaries and defeated 2/3rds of Aragons remaining armies in 2 large battles.

Using the cheap cog boats Portugal has to shuttle forces around and using the cheapest faction forces bolstered by higher armor mercenaries allowed me to keep expanding with only the pause to reach next city or battle site. Although there is an event which says my men are weary and I get -6 morale from not resting in a city or territory with more than 50% catholic. Made the battle for Valencia horrible plus BYGs makes tired men much less effective even than 6.2 does. Am in the process of sieging Aragon capitol and final settlement and a crusade vs HRE Frankfurt was called so all the neighboring kingdoms quickly joined which I hope means less worries of a back stab for a few turns. Although when those armeis are on the way back I bet someone breaks alliance and attacks. I bet on Castile. ;-) Although by then I should be in a war vs Moors which I hope is progressing well so maybe I'll be able to buy them off and get them to throw off vassalage and join the Reconquista.

I gotta say the Moors are incredibly aggressive in conversion too. I've counted 8 imams so far and most of southern Spain is less than 20% catholic now and even Valencia was down to 43% when I captured it. Made me spend money on churches and priests because in the BYG mod your army effectiveness and ability to recruit depends on support of the population/religion in the region.

Been into negative 1000 florin territory about 1/3rd of the turns so far this game until just lately finishing off Aragon. The nobles take significant income and I have only 2 family members so far because my economy won't support more so its difficult to get much gamey shock cavalry with cheap family members. I think I've had at most 14 units in my army with only peasant garrisons with the King remaining in Touluse to keep it happy and reasonable income from at least 1 settlement. My main army usually has 4 peasant units which help absorb cavalry and missiles and are relatively cheap and easy to recruit. They do tend to route easily as well but usually by that time accomplished their mission of stalling enemy. Really feel like I've been on a shoestring budget because I owned 0 towns. Although with castles it let me leave less garrisons as well. I saw Lisbon to the south but had already sent my army north and Moors took it when I was in Touluse. With Barcelona I have my first town and chance to really grow income.