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    Default Iraq Veterans Find Afghan Enemy Even Bolder

    From the NY Times

    Quote Originally Posted by NYTimes
    NAWA, Afghanistan — In three combat tours in Anbar Province, Marine Sgt. Jacob Tambunga fought the deadliest insurgents in Iraq.

    But he says he never encountered an enemy as tenacious as what he saw immediately after arriving at this outpost in Helmand Province in Afghanistan. In his first days here in late June, he fought through three ambushes, each lasting as long as the most sustained fight he saw in Anbar.

    Like other Anbar veterans here, Sergeant Tambunga was surprised to discover guerrillas who, if not as lethal, were bolder than those he fought in Iraq.

    “They are two totally different worlds,” said Sergeant Tambunga, a squad leader in Company C, First Battalion, Fifth Marines.

    “In Iraq, they’d hit you and run,” he said. “But these guys stick around and maneuver on you.”

    They also have a keen sense of when to fight and when the odds against them are too great. Three weeks ago, the American military mounted a 4,000-man Marine offensive in Helmand — the largest since President Obama’s troop increase — and so far in many places, American commanders say, they have encountered less resistance than expected.

    Yet it is also clear to many Marines and villagers here that Taliban fighters made a calculated decision: to retreat and regroup to fight where and when they choose. And in the view of troops here who fought intensely in the weeks before the offensive began, fierce battles probably lie ahead if they are to clear the Taliban from sanctuaries so far untouched.

    “It was straight luck that we didn’t have a lot more guys hit,” said Sgt. Brandon Tritle, another squad leader in Company C, who cited the Taliban’s skill at laying down a base of fire to mount an attack.

    “One force will put enough fire down so you have to keep your heads down, then another force will maneuver around to your side to try to kill you,” he said. “That’s the same thing we do.”

    In other parts of Helmand the Taliban have been quick to mount counterattacks. Since the offensive began, 10 Marines have been killed, many of them south of Garmser in areas thick with roadside bombs. In addition, British forces in Helmand, who often travel in lightly armored vehicles, have lost 19 men, all but two from bombs.

    All told, Western troops have died in greater numbers in Helmand this month than in any other province in Afghanistan over a similar period since the 2001 invasion.

    It is unclear whether the level of casualties will remain this high. But the Taliban can ill afford to lose the Helmand River Valley, a strip of land made arable by a network of canals that nourish the nation’s center for poppy growing.

    “This is what fuels the insurgency,” said Brig. Gen. Larry Nicholson, commander of the Marine brigade leading the offensive.

    For now, the strategy of the Taliban who used to dominate this village, 15 miles south of the provincial capital of Lashkar Gah, is to watch and wait just outside, villagers and Marines here say.

    “They all escaped,” said Sardar Gul, a shopkeeper at the Nawa bazaar. Mr. Gul and others who reopened stores after the Marines arrived estimate that 300 to 600 Taliban fled to Marjah, 15 miles to the west and not under American control, joining perhaps more than 1,000 fighters.

    Marine commanders acknowledge that they could have focused more on cutting off escape routes early in the operation, an issue that often dogged offensives against insurgents in Iraq.

    “I wish we had trapped a few more folks,” the commander of First Battalion, Fifth Marines, Lt. Col. William F. McCollough, told the top American commander in Afghanistan, Gen. Stanley A. McChrystal, who visited Nawa. “I expected there to be more fighting.”

    When the full battalion arrived in Nawa in early July, the Taliban “knew we were too powerful for them” and left, said Staff Sgt. Michael Placencia, a platoon sergeant in Company C.

    But he predicted the Taliban would stand and fight if Marines were to assault Marjah, describing them as a “more efficient” foe than the insurgents he saw as a squad leader in Anbar in 2005 and 2006.

    “They will come back, and they will try to take this back and pin us down,” said Maj. Rob Gallimore, a British officer who trains Afghan soldiers here. He hopes that the Marines do not spread themselves too thin and that they focus instead on building a deep bond with locals in places they occupy, a classic counterinsurgency tactic.

    So Marines are bracing for a fight against guerrillas who, they discovered in June, are surprisingly proficient at tactics the Marines themselves learned in infantry school.

    “They’d flank us, and we’d flank them, just like a chess match,” said Sgt. Jason Lynd, another squad leader in Company C.

    In June the Marines ended up in sustained firefights the first four times they left their outpost. The Taliban were always overmatched — attacking the Marines with only one-third the number of men — but they pressed the fight, laying complex ambushes and then cutting off Marines as they made their way back to base.

    One fight began after Marines stopped three vans, which they let go. Fifteen minutes later they took fire from two homes near where they had been pursuing a suspicious man they wanted to question. They cleared both buildings, but were then attacked by gunmen behind the homes, some of whom, the Marines believe, had been in the three vans, a few disguised in burqas.

    Somehow, none of the Marines were hit in the secondary ambush. “They tried to suck us in, and their plan worked,” Sergeant Tritle said. “They just missed.”

    No Marines were killed in the two weeks they were here in June.

    In contrast to Iraqi insurgents, the Taliban do not seem to have access to large artillery shells and other powerful military munitions that Anbar fighters used to kill hundreds of Marines and soldiers. The bombs found so far have been largely homemade with fertilizer, though they have still killed more than 20 British soldiers and United States Marines to the north and south of Nawa.

    “If they had better weapons, we’d be in real trouble,” said Lance Cpl. Vazgen Matevosyan.

    What the Taliban lack in munitions they make up for in tactics, even practicing “information operations” and disinformation, Marines say. Knowing the Marines listen to their two-way communications, they say, the Taliban describe phony locations of ambushes and bombs.

    “They’re not stupid,” said Lance Cpl. Frank Hegel. “You can tell they catch on to things, and they don’t make the same mistake twice.”

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  2. #2
    Farnan's Avatar Saviors of the Japanese
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    Default Re: Iraq Veterans Find Afghan Enemy Even Bolder

    The full time Taliban are proficient fighters and are experienced and trained, their full time soldiers even have rudimentary rank insignia. Their snipers are good and professional, and they are experts at IED placement and ambushes with decent marksmanship and fire discipline. There are I believe Dr. Kilcullen said around 3,000 - 4,000 of these full time Taliban (including foreign fighters) plus 27,000-36,000 part time Taliban. However, unlike the insurgents, they do not have nearly the support from the people and fight in more rural regions which allows more fires to be placed on them. They also are not that proficient in strategic movement and are many times vulnerable to air strikes while moving on trucks on a road. And their not good at indirect fires.
    Last edited by Farnan; July 26, 2009 at 05:19 PM.
    “The nation that will insist upon drawing a broad line of demarcation between the fighting man and the thinking man is liable to find its fighting done by fools and its thinking by cowards.”

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    Azog 150's Avatar Civitate
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    Default Re: Iraq Veterans Find Afghan Enemy Even Bolder

    This is what we have had to contend with the last 3 years. The USMC reinforcements truly a god-send or we would probably still be stuck in the same stalemate that has been going on for the last 2 years.

    However, it does seem to be time or intense fighting with large scale operations, and it is fighting season. I don't think the casualties will remain this high, particularly when we kick the Taliban out of a lot of their so far untouched strongholds.
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    Default Re: Iraq Veterans Find Afghan Enemy Even Bolder

    Quote Originally Posted by Azog 150 View Post
    This is what we have had to contend with the last 3 years. The USMC reinforcements truly a god-send or we would probably still be stuck in the same stalemate that has been going on for the last 2 years.

    However, it does seem to be time or intense fighting with large scale operations, and it is fighting season. I don't think the casualties will remain this high, particularly when we kick the Taliban out of a lot of their so far untouched strongholds.
    That's what all of the ISAF in the South and East have had to contend with.
    “The nation that will insist upon drawing a broad line of demarcation between the fighting man and the thinking man is liable to find its fighting done by fools and its thinking by cowards.”

    —Sir William Francis Butler

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    Azog 150's Avatar Civitate
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    Default Re: Iraq Veterans Find Afghan Enemy Even Bolder

    Well I was referring to the Danes, Estonians, Dutch and Canadians (US of course) and whoever else as well as the British. However, fighting statistics have shown attacks in Helmand to be 4 times higher then the next highest province (Which I believe in Kandahar).

    I still cannot comprehend why either Britain or some other ISAF nation hadn't sent more men there sooner.
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    Farnan's Avatar Saviors of the Japanese
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    Default Re: Iraq Veterans Find Afghan Enemy Even Bolder

    Quote Originally Posted by Azog 150 View Post
    Well I was referring to the Danes, Estonians, Dutch and Canadians (US of course) and whoever else as well as the British. However, fighting statistics have shown attacks in Helmand to be 4 times higher then the next highest province (Which I believe in Kandahar).

    I still cannot comprehend why either Britain or some other ISAF nation hadn't sent more men there sooner.
    About 1/3 of the ISAF is there according to wiki.

    Considering the numbers needed to secure the border with Pakistan, and those who are forced elsewhere by mandate, I'm not sure there were many more soldiers. But with the new surge we may soon have enough.
    “The nation that will insist upon drawing a broad line of demarcation between the fighting man and the thinking man is liable to find its fighting done by fools and its thinking by cowards.”

    —Sir William Francis Butler

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    Heinz Guderian's Avatar *takes off trousers
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    Default Re: Iraq Veterans Find Afghan Enemy Even Bolder

    The Pashtuns are brave men. Men are braver when they are defending their homeland.




  8. #8

    Default Re: Iraq Veterans Find Afghan Enemy Even Bolder

    Quote Originally Posted by Heinz Guderian View Post
    The Pashtuns are brave men. Men are braver when they are defending their homeland.
    Defending their homeland from what?

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    Farnan's Avatar Saviors of the Japanese
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    Default Re: Iraq Veterans Find Afghan Enemy Even Bolder

    Quote Originally Posted by Gauvin View Post
    Defending their homeland from what?
    The invasion by the Taliban. The ANA have been well praised for their bravery.
    “The nation that will insist upon drawing a broad line of demarcation between the fighting man and the thinking man is liable to find its fighting done by fools and its thinking by cowards.”

    —Sir William Francis Butler

  10. #10

    Default Re: Iraq Veterans Find Afghan Enemy Even Bolder

    Quote Originally Posted by Farnan View Post
    The invasion by the Taliban. The ANA have been well praised for their bravery.
    I really don't think that's what he meant.

    But, I'll agree with you about the ANA, and about the Taliban.

  11. #11
    Heinz Guderian's Avatar *takes off trousers
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    Default Re: Iraq Veterans Find Afghan Enemy Even Bolder

    Quote Originally Posted by Gauvin View Post
    Defending their homeland from what?
    cowboys.

    yee haw and all that. Being an Indian, you'd know about them right?




  12. #12

    Default Re: Iraq Veterans Find Afghan Enemy Even Bolder

    Quote Originally Posted by Heinz Guderian View Post
    cowboys.

    yee haw and all that. Being an Indian, you'd know about them right?
    I won't feed the troll.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Iraq Veterans Find Afghan Enemy Even Bolder

    Quote Originally Posted by Heinz Guderian View Post
    The Pashtuns are brave men. Men are braver when they are defending their homeland.
    Yes strapping on a bomb and killing little girls just because their going to school is brave.

  14. #14
    Heinz Guderian's Avatar *takes off trousers
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    Default Re: Iraq Veterans Find Afghan Enemy Even Bolder

    Quote Originally Posted by Downey View Post
    Yes strapping on a bomb and killing little girls just because their going to school is brave.
    collateral damage. they were aiming for occupation troops.

    @Farnan: no problem brother.




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    Default Re: Iraq Veterans Find Afghan Enemy Even Bolder

    Quote Originally Posted by Heinz Guderian View Post
    collateral damage. they were aiming for occupation troops.
    Your joking right?

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    mrmouth's Avatar flaxen haired argonaut
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    Default Re: Iraq Veterans Find Afghan Enemy Even Bolder

    Quote Originally Posted by Heinz Guderian View Post
    The Pashtuns are brave men.

    And what do you base that on? Did you read that somewhere...

    Ive seen those people run, even when the odds were favorable. They don't fear small arms, but they run like hell when mortars start falling. And they will often leave you holding your dick.

    Its simple. Some units of the Taliban, understand maneuver warfare, and ambush doctrine. Some insurgent cells in Iraq also understood these principles.
    Last edited by mrmouth; July 27, 2009 at 10:27 PM.
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    Default Re: Iraq Veterans Find Afghan Enemy Even Bolder

    Quote Originally Posted by BarnabyJones View Post
    And they will often leave you holding your dick.
    I don't understand what this is supposed to mean. Is this some kind of soldier slang? What is the meaning behind "holding your dick" and why does it seem to have negative connotations in this context? Do you expect them to hold your dick, but by retreating this oppurtunity is squandered?

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    Default Re: Iraq Veterans Find Afghan Enemy Even Bolder

    I believe the reason the Afghan people are resisting so bravely is because they are fighting for their honour. Afghanistan would lose a lot of prestige in the world's eyes if they were defeated by the Americans, after previously beating the likes of Russia and the British Empire. Their nation would be relegated to a status below Somalia and Vietnam, which would be insufferable.

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    Farnan's Avatar Saviors of the Japanese
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    Default Re: Iraq Veterans Find Afghan Enemy Even Bolder

    Quote Originally Posted by Banzai! View Post
    I believe the reason the Afghan people are resisting so bravely is because they are fighting for their honour. Afghanistan would lose a lot of prestige in the world's eyes if they were defeated by the Americans, after previously beating the likes of Russia and the British Empire. Their nation would be relegated to a status below Somalia and Vietnam, which would be insufferable.
    Umm...

    A majority of Afghans are on the US side. They wanted the US to remove the Pakistani supported Taliban.
    “The nation that will insist upon drawing a broad line of demarcation between the fighting man and the thinking man is liable to find its fighting done by fools and its thinking by cowards.”

    —Sir William Francis Butler

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    Heinz Guderian's Avatar *takes off trousers
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    Default Re: Iraq Veterans Find Afghan Enemy Even Bolder

    Quote Originally Posted by Banzai! View Post
    I believe the reason the Afghan people are resisting so bravely is because they are fighting for their honour. Afghanistan would lose a lot of prestige in the world's eyes if they were defeated by the Americans, after previously beating the likes of Russia and the British Empire. Their nation would be relegated to a status below Somalia and Vietnam, which would be insufferable.
    All the Pashtuns gotta do is just stick it out. The invaders will leave (like they always do) then they'll move on Kabul and scatter the Tajiks and Uzbeks to their fiefdoms. Be that under the banner of the "Taliban" or "Mujihideen". But this time, i think they will probably ethnically cleanse the Northerners. Pashtuns have a thing about revenge.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gauvin
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